House Republicans urge White House to delay 2017-2025 fuel economy standards
08-23-12, 03:00 PM
#46
The one thing that I have to point out, these new govt fuel economy standards are often only achieved during EPA and other controlled tests, not real world. Turbocharged engines in particular are not anywhere near as economical as they are claimed to be. The new clean diesels are not as economical as older diesels, and not as reliable either. And certain manufactures just blatantly lie about their MPG ratings, they are nowhere near as good in the real world.
08-23-12, 03:11 PM
#47
What is this free market you speak of? The free market with lobbyists and where big business interests are first? The Free Market with taxes and Tarriffs in other countries on automobiles? Where is "Free" market? The free market with huge government contracts to automakers? The free market where the government has went in bed with auto-brands ALL OVER THE WORLD (its not just us bub)
Guess what before govt mandate there were no seatbelts. I think Tucker was going to put them standard first. Do you know they were FOUGHT to have them added, told they would add untold cost and complexity.
Oh and before we were born, the all evil "government" sent a man on the moon. Surely they can figure out a car if they really wanted to.
Not all government is bad. Without it there would be utter chaos.
If there was no government involvement in the auto industry we all would be driving this.
Let's get intellectual and not emotional. Jeez
Guess what before govt mandate there were no seatbelts. I think Tucker was going to put them standard first. Do you know they were FOUGHT to have them added, told they would add untold cost and complexity.
Oh and before we were born, the all evil "government" sent a man on the moon. Surely they can figure out a car if they really wanted to.
Not all government is bad. Without it there would be utter chaos.
If there was no government involvement in the auto industry we all would be driving this.
Let's get intellectual and not emotional. Jeez
08-23-12, 03:14 PM
#48
The one thing that I have to point out, these new govt fuel economy standards are often only achieved during EPA and other controlled tests, not real world. Turbocharged engines in particular are not anywhere near as economical as they are claimed to be. The new clean diesels are not as economical as older diesels, and not as reliable either. And certain manufactures just blatantly lie about their MPG ratings, they are nowhere near as good in the real world.
08-23-12, 06:21 PM
#49
Lexus Fanatic
Surely some of you have been on forums like that, it is a hot mess. Contrarily some forums have too much government and are choked to death.
There is a fine balance that should be found.
There is a fine balance that should be found.
08-23-12, 07:15 PM
#50
Lexus Test Driver
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Maryland
Posts: 1,243
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Projected. The Volt is not a fair comparison at all, its an electric car and one of the first. The Accord is a basic car that has been in development for decades.
Why are you quoting MSRP? People lease their 50-70k BMW for the same payment as a Camry/Accord buyer. The industry finds ways to make people AFFORD things.
Even without this new rule, car prices have skyrocketed. So they go up anyway.
Why are you quoting MSRP? People lease their 50-70k BMW for the same payment as a Camry/Accord buyer. The industry finds ways to make people AFFORD things.
Even without this new rule, car prices have skyrocketed. So they go up anyway.
WTH would be a fair comparison then?? This is one of the only vehicles on the market that would actually meet the new 2025 EPA standards!!! Yeah, it's not cheap! Will the current Honda Accord? Not even close. Why is the Accord cheap? Because it's sold in very high volumes, it's built cheaply for the mass market, and because it's a simple car, which the Volt, Hybrids, EVs, and pretty much anything that will actually meet the new standards will not be. You're living in la la land. The Volt is your future. Strike 1.$50-70k BMWs lease for $600-800/mo. I would know I've got two of them. Sorry, but not even close to what you could lease an Accord or Camry for. Half or less, and (drumroll) the MSRP of the car is about half of a BMW too so it make sense!
Strike 2.No car prices have not "skyrocketed". They've gone up yes, but skyrocket is what's about to come if the timelines for these new regs hold.
Strike 3, you're out buddy.
Packing for the beach, and am going to see what kind of highway mileage we can get in this X5d beast.
08-23-12, 08:13 PM
#52
Problem is people don't know what they want they just get into the loop and buy what is served to them. Prettier the platter means better buys. You have to be informed intellectual individual to know what you need or want and be ready to get out of the loop. Don't get me wrong there are a lot of people like that and that's what makes this place a lot better but majority still acts like a heard, when they hear the bell off they go.
Gas back to $2 a gallon? They went running back to their Escalades.
08-23-12, 10:05 PM
#53
Lexus Fanatic
The Volt, IMO is way overpriced. I reviewed one, and, though it does stretch your gas dollars, I was otherwise not impressed. There are several basic design and ergonomic problems, and, in general, I think GM is ripping people off with both the regular price and dealer-mark-ups.
Yes, some BMWs may also be overpriced.....but the steering/suspension/chassis engineering may justify at least part of it. There are no better chassis-engineers in the buisness, IMO....in general, BMW sets the industry standard.
As I noted previously, Hyundai Accents and Kia Rios went up some $2000 this year. As I see it, that's quite a one-year price-increase for vehicles that formerly sold in the low-to-mid-teens.
I got 32 (under ideal conditons) with an AWD Outback. You maybe able to do better than that with a Bluetec diesel, especialy if you don't load it up too heavy, drive on level roads at constant but moderate speeds, keep proper tire-pressure, and don't have to use the A/C the whole way.
Good Luck and enjoy the trip.
$50-70k BMWs lease for $600-800/mo. I would know I've got two of them. Sorry, but not even close to what you could lease an Accord or Camry for. Half or less, and (drumroll) the MSRP of the car is about half of a BMW too so it make sense!
No car prices have not "skyrocketed". They've gone up yes, but skyrocket is what's about to come if the timelines for these new regs hold.
Packing for the beach, and am going to see what kind of highway mileage we can get in this X5d beast.
Good Luck and enjoy the trip.
08-24-12, 05:51 AM
#54
Volt is such an utter joke, NYT calculated that gasoline would have to be $12/gallon for you to break even in 6 years, which is the average time someone keeps a car. It breaks even in 26 years if you use current gas prices.
Yet the same people who cooked up and subsidized that monstrosity should decide our mpg standards.
Yet the same people who cooked up and subsidized that monstrosity should decide our mpg standards.
Last edited by 4TehNguyen; 08-24-12 at 06:04 AM.
08-24-12, 07:34 AM
#55
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
the volt was a good name, as we all got 'shocked' at how much we got ripped off to pay for it.
08-24-12, 08:25 AM
#56
Lexus Champion
08-24-12, 09:09 AM
#57
Boardroom Thug
So again to me yeah its tough but it is influencing the industry to do better. They can, they will and consumers will win.
Cause in 2025 gas won't be the $3.50-$4 people complain about now
Cause in 2025 gas won't be the $3.50-$4 people complain about now
The government didn’t need to motivate or inspire Lexus to bring out that slamming 5.8 0 to 60 GS back in the day, they seen what the market wanted and gave it to them in the grandest fashion.
The government didn’t inspire Hyundai either, as a company, they set goals, seen voids in the market and worked hard to fill those voids which is lead to massive growth and fulfilled consumers. While they did that and executed upon it is has pushed ALL the automakers to rethink their products, branding and marketing.
What bugs me about the government just throwing a number out there is it reminds me of some of the worse ran companies I had the “pleasure” of doing business with in the past. Someone high up says “go do X, and I don’t care how you get it done” without even knowing if it CAN be done at all let alone in the given time frame, which results in massive failures across the board.
If the market wanted higher MPG cars, companies see that demand and develop products to meet that demand. Let’s be honest for a second, if a company see’s a way to make money they do it, that is pretty clear these days.
08-24-12, 09:17 AM
#58
Boardroom Thug
The other thing think about is Average Joe can go out and buy a V8 muscle car today and afford that, that is a big part of America to me, you have a lot of luxuries within reach even if you’re not a wall street CEO.
At some point anything half way enjoyable is going to be marked up all to hell leaving it up to the wealthy to enjoy, that is what we are creating I am afraid.
At some point anything half way enjoyable is going to be marked up all to hell leaving it up to the wealthy to enjoy, that is what we are creating I am afraid.
08-24-12, 09:26 AM
#59
Lexus Fanatic
Well, part of that, of course, is factory-options/accessories and dealer mark-ups, but even the base 41K price seems way high, IMO. On top of that, between the options and dealer-ADM, there is often more mark-up than you get back with the $7500 tax-credit. The excuse GM (and, to a lesser-extent, Toyota with the Plug-in-Prius) give for that pricing is that the lithium-ion battery-packs and other state-of-the-art hybrid technology is expensive. Perhaps, but the pricing is still driving away customers.....even with high-priced gas, the Volt has still been a sales-flop.
08-26-12, 01:37 PM
#60
Lexus Fanatic
None of this is accurate, because it's based on a false premise. All these things you describe have happened in the ABSENCE of increasing standards. There are ZERO permanent changes in the fuel economy requirements between 1990 and MY2014 (there was a temporary 2mpg increase for MY2011 only). The current plan requires average fuel economy to DOUBLE in just over a decade. This is just a pipe dream, requiring that better than half of all cars sold for 2025 be significantly more economical than the current-generation Prius. Add that factor in, and watch your list go poof, just like it did 40 years ago. Sure we'll probably be doing ok again when 2050 rolls around, but I for one am going to be way too old to enjoy powerful cars again at that point.
The last time economy standards were raised, the goal looked to be challenging but possible. In fact, there were already one or two models on the market (small cars, granted), that met the requirements, and another one or two in the pipeline that came out a few months later. In this case, there are NONE. Even the much-vaunted Prius falls well short of this new bar. If the best we've come up with thus far doesn't even come close to the requirement, what are the chances that the average car 12 years from now can possibly be over it? Zilch, absent some insanely expensive overhauls--in particular, I'd like to see how the luxury flagships are going to hit their proposed level of 46mpg. I can't wait to read reviews of the 2025 Lexus LS190.
The last time economy standards were raised, the goal looked to be challenging but possible. In fact, there were already one or two models on the market (small cars, granted), that met the requirements, and another one or two in the pipeline that came out a few months later. In this case, there are NONE. Even the much-vaunted Prius falls well short of this new bar. If the best we've come up with thus far doesn't even come close to the requirement, what are the chances that the average car 12 years from now can possibly be over it? Zilch, absent some insanely expensive overhauls--in particular, I'd like to see how the luxury flagships are going to hit their proposed level of 46mpg. I can't wait to read reviews of the 2025 Lexus LS190.
Exactly, the 2025 LS190 that will have to be based on a Toyota Corolla platform. You can't love V8's and high hp cars and then also welcome 52.5mpg avg because one has to go. If these overbearing fuel economy standards of 46mpg or fleet averages of 52.5 mpg have to implemented by 2025 you can say goodbye to V12s, V10s, V8s, most V6s, turbo or supercharged V6s making over 300hp, hybrid V6's making over 300hp, large cars, large SUV(might not be a bad thing), sports cars, pretty much rwd/awd, full sized pickups(they will most likely get exceptions since they are big sellers for the big 3), etc. You will have to be rich to buy a rare luxury or sports car making any kind of power with 52.5 mpg avg by 2025 and it will most likely have to be a hybrid V6 or at most hybrid V8. 2025 is not that far away in the grand scheme of things especially when it comes to car cycles and what needs to be done.
Hitting 35mpg or close to it is difficult but doable but look what has been done, big increase in hybrids, big increase in small, small engined low powered economy cars, no more NA inline 6s in BMW lineup, 4 cylinder turbos making big comeback in German luxury cars, No V8s in A6 , no V8 for GS(probably has more to due with lack of sales), losing V6 option for many mid size family cars like Impala, Malibu, Sonata, etc. M3 dropping V8 for turbo I6, M5/M6 dropping V10 for turbo V8, S4 dropping V8 for SC V6, 6 cylinder and hybrid 7 series, no increase in power for new ES350, Avalon, GS, etc. Not all these changes have been bad but many are very big just to get to or try to get to a 35mpg average.
For 46-52 mpg future regulations changes are going to have to be huge and will be very disappointing to luxury and sports car enthusiasts. Nothing on the market really meets this 52.5 fleet average, even a low powered small Prius. Get used to most new cars being very small, heavy, and under powered and anything luxury to be very rare, very heavy, very expensive, and very complicated. In order to get to these levels they are going to have to go with electrics or electrics with small back up motors like the Volt which clearly people don't want and are not buying. Diesel engines may not even be clean enough for these future strict standards.
With so many hybrids and electrics being produced and bought to meet these standards it will just create its own set of major problems like higher costs of resources to build these powerplants, quickly using up the resources to build these powerplants, taxing our already heavily used electrical grids to recharge these electrics/hybrids every day, more pollution from more coal fired plants, etc.
There is no realistic way for most automakers to conform to these standards in such a little amount of time and it is good that Republicans in Congress see this and are trying to address it. Totally changing the way they build cars in such a short amount of time can and will hurt and even bankrupt many auto companies and the consumers will lose unless all they want is small expensive underpowered electrics and hybrids that get good gas mileage.