spwolf

yeah but this has been done the same way - EPA tests 20% of cars to see how real their claims are. Rest slip by.

But I dont doubt for a second that any car will do the same during real EPA tests. Again, these are lab conditions.

Problem isnt fake numbers. Problem is that manufacturers are playing the test to achieve numbers on the test that drivers will not get in real life.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

i believe you are right, and yes, it seems hyundai game's the system to get good numbers for marketing, but then shame on the epa for having a test routine that doesn't adequately mimic real world conditions.

spwolf

it is cat and mouse game, EPA changed its tests in 2009 and downrated many cars... but newer cars that came after 2009 already started playing it.

whenever you have lab test that is 100% reproducible each time you do it, you will be able to play it. they will optimize software to be apsolutely the best... heck, i bet it detects these conditions as "epa" mode and uses it :-).

i think it would be wrong to only blame Hyundai, they just had most new models that came out after EPA tests were changed. Ford is doing the same thing - for instance current Fusion Hybrid got 15% better EPA than old Camry Hybrid, but in all the tests by mags, they were always equal, as well as user reported data.

It seems that Japanese might have some morality issues by doing this, as witnessed by Honda and Toyota numbers, or for instance with FR-S which has 2nd gear going to 59.1 mph... you certainly wont see that in european or american sports car, and I bet that head engineer made this a sticking point at Toyota, so who is actually designing cars by committee here?

-J-P-L-

Good points. And maybe you're right about the Japanese moral ground. Culturally, it wouldn't be
honorable to play the system. There's a clear trend of Toyota's and Honda's being under-rated consistently.

This is a big problem because people put a lot of weight into the EPA estimates when purchasing a car, especially an economy car where fuel efficiency is a priority.

LexBob2

Looking through Consumer Reports annual new car issue I saw the listing of their actual overall MPG's for small sedans from their Road Test all of them are very close:

Corolla 32mpg
Civic 30mpg
Elantra 29mpg
Mazda3 28mpg
Kia Forte 28mpg
Focus 28mpg
Sentra 27mpg

Bakemono36

I dont care even if the Chevy Sonic gets 50 mpg, I still wouldnt buy one. I remember how horrible the Aveo was. Same car, different name. Theres no reason to expect the Sonic will be any different.

mmarshall

No. The Sonic is WAY different from the Aveo. That's not just an idle statement on my part.....I did full-reviews of both cars. The Sonic, Buick Verano, Chevy Cruze, and Chevy Malibu are all classic examples of why, IMO, the money and resources recently poured into GM has paid off....and I can honestly say that even though I'm not a fan of Obama or his Administration.

In spite of our disagreement, welcome to CL. I see you are a new poster.

-J-P-L-

That's a false assumption which you would know if you were aware of the history on both cars.

The Aveo was a piece of junk built in South Korea by GM Deawoo. The Aveo isn't really even a Chevy. The Sonic, on the other hand, is 100% US market GM developed from the ground up here and even built here (the only sub-compact made in America).

The Sonic is light years ahead and cannot be compared. It's a well built car. Not Yaris or Fit bullet proof, but likely better built than the Fiesta, for example.

spwolf

thats not close at all.

Corolla which should get the least according to EPA, gets the most... Focus and Elantra that should get more than Corolla, get 10% less.

So you buy Elantra or Focus, thinking you will have 10% smaller fuel bills, you actually get 10% worse fuel bills compared to Corolla!

spwolf

Sorry bro, Sonic is engineered by GM Daewoo and is sold worldwide as ... Aveo!
Most of Chevrolets are actually engineered by GM Daewoo in Korea, based on Opel platforms.

p.s. same as cruze... and i dont think there is anything wrong with it, but it is not american engineered car, just like Yaris or Corolla.

-J-P-L-

Well, GM "Daewoo" no longer exists, it changed to GM Korea in 2011. I stand corrected as far as the Sonic being fully engineered in America. However, there is still a big difference between the first gen Aveo and the 2nd gen (known as the Sonic in the U.S., Canadian, Mexican, Chilean, Japanese, Israeli, Middle East and South African markets) in the way it came about. Let's just say GM [America] had much more to do with the 2nd gen while GM Korea (Daewoo) completely developed the 1st gen separate from the parent company GM. Yeah, it's kinda complicated. Hard to find exact info too.

LexBob2

I've seen and read a lot of reviews on the Sonic, and every one of them mentioned there's no comparison between it and the unloved Aveo. Long term, who knows how it will be, my guess is it will be better

spwolf

they can rename it to whatever you want, but it is still Daewoo. I am sure that some small adjustments were made by GM USA, but in reality car has been developed by Daewoon based on Opel platform... US is only small market for it, europe and asia are main markets.

Here is "GM Korea" press release from 2011:

http://english.yonhapnews.co.kr/newp...11351320F.HTML