GSteg

iTrader: (15)

No it's not silly to discount a mechanic's word because that is not the area they are an expertise in. Metallurgy is not their field..they fix cars, not engineer/design them. Mechanics and metallurgist/engineers may both work on cars, but they are not the same study of field. That's like asking a salesman about the engineering aspects of a car. I don't care who you are, you cannot tell material properties by just looking at it. How easily a mechanic can repair cars is his/her own thing. I could think of things on Toyota cars that are silly compared to others, but that's just my own opinion.

I am not the one to rely on others word regarding quality. Just because a group of people say so doesn't make it true. You have people still believing Toyota quality is near perfection, but we know that's not necessarily true of a few models recently.

TRDFantasy

To each their own. I have a friend who *IS* an engineer and he has told me the same things about Hyundai that the mechanics I talk to have told me. Another associate of mine knows a machinist who is not impressed with Hyundai's metal quality.

If you like Hyundai/Kia, more power to you. Regardless of what you want to believe, facts are facts. The beautiful thing about facts is that they don't change regardless of your perception. The fact is at the moment Hyundai quality and reliability still does not match brands like Toyota and Honda, looking at any objective metric out there.

IS350jet

If you want to gain perspective of the quality and reliability of a manufacturer's model, the last person on earth that you should listen to is the technician at the dealership. The only thing he/she does is repair these cars all day long. It's all he/she knows. I've been working for Toyota and Lexus for the last 28 years and Gawd, I can't tell you the massive recalls and repairs we do on these cars. Are they junk? Hell no, but I can tell you, if a Hyundai tech were to suddenly start working on Toyota's, he'd/she'd have the shock of his/her life.

RocketGuy3

iTrader: (1)

If Hyundai can metamorphasize their brand image this quickly, I wonder if it means that people are starting to get past their asstarded badge-whoring tendencies.

... I can only hope.

My0gr81

Besides, the mechanic has no idea what the ratio of service repairs to vehicle sold is. Only the dealer's management and the manufacturer (if warranty work) knows.

TRDFantasy makes some points though:

- Toyota has a long and proven track record for reliability
- As a ratio of vehicle sold over the long haul, more Toyota cars continue to be on the road. Hey, I still see late 80's and early 90's corollas on the road.
- long warranty coverage is only as good as the manufacturer's confidence in the product. Toyota and others have enough confidence in their product to make their warranty transferable.

tofu_house

iTrader: (2)

This is not a fact. It is your opinion.

Yes, issues do tend to show up after many many miles. It happens to all cars, regardless of the maker. It's not about whether or not there will be issues. It's about how long before the issues begin to manifest themselves and how serious they are. And for the newest generation of Hyundai products, we won't really see the long-term issues for some time, so instead of spewing out information based on your predisposed hatred for Hyundai, why don't we instead just wait and see.

tofu_house

iTrader: (2)

How does this make any sense?

Hyundai themselves have acknowledged Toyota's reputation for making quality vehicles. So if they are after quality, is it not only natural for them to want to compare themselves to Toyota? Making this claim isn't an attack on Toyota. It's giving praise to Toyota.

TRDFantasy

So statistics from sources like JD Power and Consumer Reports that show Hyundai/Kia still doesn't match Toyota and Honda in reliability are opinions, not facts?

Yes, it is a FACT, unless you can show factual proof otherwise, objective factual proof that Hyundai/Kia now matches Toyota and Honda in long-term reliability.

tofu_house

iTrader: (2)

http://www.jdpower.com/autos/ratings...ings-by-brand/

Seems like JD Power has rated Hyundai higher than Honda in overall dependability, powertrain dependability, feature and assembly dependability, and equally for body and interior dependability. Compared to Toyota, it falls one under in body and interior dependability, but is rated higher than Toyota in feature and assembly dependability. Overall, they rank the same.

http://www.autoblog.com/2011/03/17/j...t-b/#continued

And yes, while Toyota overall has only 122 problems per 100 vehicles, Hyundai is at 132, and Honda at 139.

Among the top 3 vehicles in each segment, you will see Hyundai products noted alongside Toyota and, too a far lesser extent, Honda.

You want Consumer Reports? Here you go: http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/c...-car/index.htm

Small car: Hyundai Elantra
Family SUV: Kia Sorrento

3 on the board for Toyota (Prius, Rav4, and Sienna) and 1 for Honda (Fit).

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/c...y-findings.htm

"The major Asian brands are still doing well overall. All models from Acura, Honda, Hyundai, Infiniti, Scion, and Toyota have at least average predicted reliability. "

"Hyundai and Kia continued to do well, with only one model, the Kia Sedona minivan, rated below average. All six new models for 2010 had average or better reliability, an impressive first-year showing. "

Like I've said, the new generation still needs some time to accurately evaluate long-term reliability. You can scream and shout all you want how it's products aren't reliable, but the FACT is, that all the statistics aren't available yet.

LexFather

Ladies and Gents lets chill for a minute. Hyundai is here crediting Lexus and clearly they used some of the Lexus template for their cars. Its okay to debate why you don't like it but lets not use to much anecdotal evidence as support. We don't like it when people say "I only see old people in Lexus" b/c that is what they observe.

At this point its clear they have made tremendous improvement and are no longer 2 jokes of car companies. Lets give credit where credit is due and get back to talking about maybe Hyundai not choosing to launch a luxury brand.

Thanks

Mike

Lexuslvr91

I believe that is a great idea.

Many factors dictate the launching of a separate luxury brand. Times have changed. It is much more difficult to launch a separate nameplate than it was in the past. Combine that with a history of negativity and it was simply much too risky to launch a luxury division. Call it what you want but keeping the Genesis and Equus under the Hyundai nameplate has helped do wonders for their image. Why should they worry about creating another brand anyway? Outside of the US the Genesis and Equus are perceived as a much higher class car than within the US. The billions saved from attempting to create another make have gone directly to R&D of their core products. The new Sonata, Elantra, Accent, Tuscon as well as upcoming others including the all new Azera, and Veloster are proof of this. When Lexus was created they had the volume ES. Likewise with Acura's Integra and Infiniti's G20. Hyundai has 2 low volume fullsize sedans and one low volume coupe. These would not have properly sustained a luxury line. Perhaps they could have re skinned a Sonata and made a ES fighter but that was not the case. In development however is a compact RWD 3-series fighting volume sedan along with the next generations of the Genesis coupe, Genesis sedan, Equus and Veracruz replacement. Hyundai is currently meeting their goals sales wise with the Genesis and Equus.

I see how they are positioning themselves using the Genesis and Equus to boost Hyundai's image first before they attempt to branch off the division.

Now would I like to see some sort of luxury division? 100% yes. I hope later on they do produce a luxury nameplate and end up calling it Genesis. It has a natural sounding luxury ring to it just like Lexus.

Just to add on Infiniti was not a very successful brand and was struggling all the way up until the early 2000s when the first G series was introduced.

TRDFantasy

We'll see how Genesis sales hold in the coming years. Equus sales are almost non-existent, and Hyundai had very low expectations to begin with for Equus US sales. This shows Hyundai knows higher-end products like the Equus can't succeed without a luxury brand in North America. It's just not possible. The Genesis is not really a luxury product. It could be classed as near-luxury, and price-wise the Genesis with the coupe and sedan currently competes in two totally different segments.

Going forward into the future, I honestly don't think the Hyundai brand can support any additional products that are more upscale than the Genesis.

Lexuslvr91

I believe I already mentioned that the Equus and Genesis are perceived much more highly out side of the US. The CEO of Hyundai USA already noted that the Equus is well on it's way to reaching its annual sales goal for the US. The bulk of sales are over in Korea. US sales are icing on the cake. It is like the LFA in a way. We all know the LFA is meant as a test bed for future Lexus products. Genesis sales have been going up consecutively for nearly 2 years. This is due to more awareness. If the Genesis isn't a luxury product then neither is the Lincoln MKS, Lexus GS, Acura RL, Volvo S80, Saab 9-5, and Infiniti M.

The Equus is the only product that will be above the Genesis. Yes the Genesis sedan and coupe are vastly different but they are still branded under Genesis(think of it as a sub brand name). The next Genesis coupe will be based on a compact RWD sedan currently in development.

TRDFantasy

I don't want to argue about the same things over and over.

Equus is meeting US sales goals because the goals were VERY low in the first place. Yes the Equus is popular in Korea (and mostly only in Korea), but we're not talking about Korea here.

I stand by my points that the Hyundai brand in North America and in other markets cannot support a car like the Equus. We will see in time who is wrong and who is right.

GSteg

iTrader: (15)

What you've stated so far are just opinions of some mysterious people you know. What your 'engineer friend' said is just the same: opinion. If I may, I would like to know what facts he has regarding Hyundai quality issue. That would shed a lot of light on the topic at hand. I think your hatred for Hyundai is showing too much. Give them a chance to do it their own way and if they fall, then oh well. If they succeed then more power to them. Their success is the result of the products they've been putting out. If that's arrogance, then I hope they become more arrogant! You're right, it's too early to tell how they'll fare in the long run, but at the same time, it's too early to call them crap/gimmick/arrogant/or whatever.