While I see your point and somewhat agree, the development process for these two cars was very different. Lamborghini has an obvious history of building high performance cars so when plans emerged for the R8, it was an easy fix to raid the Lambo parts bin for the V10 engine and other big ticket items. VWAG smartly built in some production efficiencies between the Gallardo and R8 but the base engine came from the old RS4 and the upper level engine came directly from Lambo. They're both wonderful powerplants and it's great that Audi was able to cherry pick from such an elite set of hardware, but it's just not the same as what was done with the LFA.

Toyota never had any corporate parts bin to draw from so everything from the engine to the transmission to the carbon fiber weaving process were all created from scratch, in house, specifically for the LFA, and had to be tested and refined over the 10 year development process.

Not denying that the XJ220 wasn't a let down, but my point was that like Lexus and unline the aformentioned brands, Jag built, designed and engineered the car themselves.

Ageed.

I do see your point and I guess part of it boils down to your personal definition of supercar. I don't think that special editions of the CLK, SLK or SL qualify as supercars...they're supremely modded versions of fairly standard luxury cars, some costing as little as $40,000. The performance is obviously there, but there is a whole other level of "exotic" required to be something like an LFA or Gallardo, even if an SL Black Series could spank them around a track.

Agreed. That said, the Germans are far less humble than the Japanese so in a way, it's surprising to see that Lexus has come out and said, "Look what I can do!" before a company like BMW did. I still give major props to Merc and Audi for the SLS and R8 (granted, I hate the SLS but love the R8)...just pointing out some differences.

Very good point and I don't disagree at all.

Consider that it wasn't very long ago that BMW and Mercedes were teetering between red and black ink on a very regular basis when it came time to earnings and profits. The upper brass in both companies literally said, "We need to make more cars with the same hardware," and then the CLS, GLK, GL, E Coupe, 5 GT, X1, 1 series, etc were all born. Further, we hear more about the CLC, GLC, 3GT, etc so BMW and Mercedes have done a good job of spreading out costs across more vehicles, most of which have all been pretty successful, and they will continue to do so.

Lexus and Audi are significantly more profitable because of their architecture and ability to share costs with larger/parent companies. In Lexus' case, two of their core products, RX and ES, are based on Camry architecture and hardware. HS and CT share lots of parts and components with Auris, Prius, etc. This is good for the bottom line and IMO, not so good for the product. Why? For BMW or Mercedes, they are concerned with spreading costs across their lineups. For Lexus (and, Audi) it's about spreading costs into larger parent companies who might loop those expenses into a huge pool...for example, Toyota's Camry platform and hardware, or for Audi, the B-whatever platform that underpins the A4, A6 and A8.

For example, for BMW, everything from the X1 to the 7 series have an 8 speed automatic available because that is how the company spreads costs out over the lineup...one or two engine blocks and trannys for every vehicle. This more or less has to be the standard for the 7 series but to share costs at the front end, it's designed and engineered so that even base products like the X1 or 1 series can utilize the same parts. In a way, you have bottom end products being built to somewhat flagship standards if you're looking at the hardware.


Lexus' production scales for powertrains and hardware are all over the map.

- GS and IS share a platform and many common parts (and LS to a lesser extent)
- ISF and LS share engines and trannys
- ES and RX share heavily with Camry, Sienna, Highlander, etc.,
- GX with 4Runner, LC Prado, Tacoma,
- LX with Land Cruiser and to a lesser extent, Tundra and Sequoia
- CT with Auris and Prius, etc.

In Lexus' case, it makes sense for the GX and LX because Toyota builds such great BOF SUVs to begin with, but they are also somewhat niche products with a pretty dedicated buyer base. For sedans and crossovers, it's less of a winning game because you're trying to sell what started life as a $19,000 Toyota Camry as a $40,000 luxury SUV or sedan. Whereas the X3 has a nice 300hp TT V6 with an 8AT, the RX will continue using Camry hardware for the forseeable future which means the same 2GR-FE engine and 6AT as a Camry LE V6.

Audi is much the same but has he ability to draw richer resources because Lamborghini and Porsche are in house.

There's a definite trade off between profitability and economies of scope or scale and BMW/Merc do it very differently from Audi/Lexus. For the sake of products, I think you could make the case that at the bottom end, they do it better than Audi and Lexus but I'm not so sure for the sake of profitability. Top end, where Lexus invests a significant amount into products like the ISF and LS, their engineering ability shines through.

I think Lexus is at a crossroads where the competition has surpassed them in several instances and much of it is technological. IMO, there will come a time in the not too distant future for products like the RX, which is the core of Lexus, that Toyota underpinnings and hardware will not be sustainable for much longer. Think about it - we're due for a new RX in 3 years and if it doesn't come packing ~320hp and an 8AT, the competition will be standing by and laughing. Can we expect those things from the Camry which is set to debut next quarter? I don't think so.

How Lexus decides to cope with these challenges remains to be seen, but there will be several new products in the next few months and years, and I think we will start to see and understand more more of their strategy in that time.

 

^ I heard sometime a back that the RX and ES would eventually share a new platform unique to them and no longer with the Camry... any truth or even possibility of this?

If any vehicle in the lineup that would make economic sense is here. The ES and RX are Lexus' best selling vehicles.

The IS and GS do also share platforms with the Japanese Mark X and Crown (awesome vehicles in their own right and actually in a similar price bracket despite the Toyota branding). IIRC the SC also shares it's platform with the gen2 GS.

 

I really hope this is true because the RX already sells so well, but it is sad to see it's based on a Camry platform. Not exactly what you want when the competition is so fierce. They can't stick with the Camry powertrain options because themselves aren't that impressive to begin with now.

BMW has turbos thru out the whole X5 lineup, torque vectoring rear diff, and countless other things. The 8AT is thru its whole lineup almost. Mercedes and Audi are basically the same. It really is a shame because I doubt the next Camry will be anything special. No turbos, no 7/8AT, etc and Lexus really needs this. Someone spending close to $50-60k on these cars doesn't want a Camry V6 in their SUV.

It would be interesting to see if the ES and RX get their own platform that is specific to both. Lower costs and they can share powertrains, etc.

I would really like Lexus to get a new DI forced induction V6 paired with a 7/8AT in the next gen RX. By the time, the 4th gen RX is out, the new X5, Q7, etc will also be out.

 

I think you are correct on this. Lexus isn't so lucky because Toyota themselves are really falling behind in their core products (compared to Hyundai/KIA) that the parts-bins aren't that "rich."

Audi is lucky to be able to share parts and spread costs with Buggati/Bentley/Lambo/VW/Porsche, etc. On the lower scale, VW is lucky in itself because it has access to a huge number of great engines to use in its core products. For example, the Jetta's 2.5 I5 uses the same block as Lambo's V10. The Touareg's V6 TDI is an Audi unit. The hybrid system is also an Audi engine. The CC's 3.6 VR6 is also an Audi unit.

I really hope Toyota starts to spend more of its cash reserves on the Lexus brand because VW has had no problem spending large sums of cash on random models and such that don't even turn a profit, such as the Veyron, etc. Yet Toyota is so reluctant to even give the Corolla the redesign it needed like 5 years ago.

 

You are implying that Lexus cannot implement those things if the continue using the Camry platform. That is simply not true. They are not even bound to use the same powertrain, I'm pretty sure **if** they wanted to, the could more than well use the IS's more powerful DI V6 (same engine different head) just for starters. The fact is, Lexus know their customers and are quite adept at keeping them happy. The RX still far outsells the competition, no matter how many dodads they come up with, because they know their market. The biggest disadvantage that the Camry platform brings is that it provides naysayers with the ammunition to say "it's a camry in a tux", yet the RX still out sells, out fuel misers, out coddles and will probably outlast any of them with better reliability and id quite competent at driving anywhere and in any condition any of it's direct competition can.

Not to say Lexus should be complacent... but IMO the platform doesn't hold them back one bit from an engineering point of view. It's not as if RX buyers were hoping to get an M3 on stilts.

 

Hybrid technology is a lot bigger feat than adding turbos and then having catastrophic fuel pump failures.

RX sells well because it is good car, period. BMW now shares engines with PSA and MB shares engines with Renaults, both low cost brands.

Engine sharing is not going anywhere.

 

People here make it seem like Hybrid technology is such a huge feat for Lexus and it is, but that's the only trump card they have compared to the Germans. They have diesels, plus many other technologies that people here overlook and like to ignore and not acknowledge just because Lexus doesn't have it.

BMW shares only the MINI engines with PSA. MB shares with Renault, but I don't see Mercedes using Renault engines. They wouldn't be caught dead using them.

Only BMW seems to be having fuel pump problems with turbos. Do you see Nissan/Audi/MB, etc having problems with their FI? Nope. More power + better MPG + lower emissions. Win Win for everyone

Side note, let's look at the new M5. Power from the twin-turbo V8 is 560PS (552hp) / 680Nm (501tq). It's making LF-A power in a sedan the size of a GS. As much as I love the LF-A, it's crazy to think that BMW is putting this much power in a sedan. I hope the GS-F will match it.

 

Sorry but adding turbos isn't rocket science, its simply an old method that has been trendy as of late. Quite frankly I find performance to be good in SOME cases, not all and MPG improvement is negligible at best. Some of us don't care for forced induction. I started a thread about how the Toyota Supra nearly 20 years ago had 320hp with a 3.0 tt. Today people are beating off to the 335 with the same thing? 18 years later. Really? The Supra TT made 400hp easily with some BPU mods. Toyota did this nearly 2 decades ago.

Hybrids are the most technologically advanced cars in the world, PERIOD. They are not all the same like all petrol versions are not the same. You can get a Prius or a Active Hybrid X6. The technology in those cars far surpasses any other road car. Sadly b/c people love to hate hybrids, they don't want to acknowledge this.

Besides, Germans are experimenting with hybrids+diesels.


Now what in the flying hell is wrong with the RX based on the Camry? Shall I name every car based on something else? A 70k M56 shares its platform with a 30k 370Z. Oh its cool b/c its RWD?

What about the fact that most A8's sold in the U.K are FWD? Yes FWD. Lets not pick and chose to crap on one brand and gloss over FWD offered in an executive D-class Audi sedan. Shall we say its "Sad' the A8 is really FWD with AWD slapped on? What about the 5 series now based on the bigger heavier 7 series. Its a porker now. The E39 was lightest in class, today its heaviest.

More double standards towards Lexus. This thread is supposed to be about Lexus: Engineering Amazing.

It is CRYSTAL CLEAR in most cases people don't give a **** about the platform. Hell the Boxster and 911 in the 1990s (996) shared 60% of its parts. THE FRONT WAS THE SAME. Guess what, Porsche never sold better!

Its old and tired and redundant that it seems perfectly fine for Germans to share and sell FWD and go downmarket but Lexus and the Japanese brands are picked apart at every turn for doing the SAME THING.

Quite frankly these redundant discussions are old and tiring and I tire of it after ten years.

edit

Let me say Autounion is a good guy and we have some good history so I'm not replying to him. I'm speaking in general.

 

 

You don't sound like a jerk at all. Your opinions are just that...opinions...

First of all Buick is not tier one and I don't consider it in the same class as Lexus. I will include Cadillac a direct competitor to Lexus but not Buick. Buick is a tweener just like Mercury which died in June of 2010. Buick should be dead too. Let GM focus on Cadillac as being their one and only luxury brand and stop wasting time, money and effort on Buick.

You didn't pay attention to these commercials. It was about the engineering that Lexus/Toyota has accomplished such as creating their own carbon fiber weaving loom for use in the LFA, recyclable plastics used in the CTh and HSh. The process of using a vaccum in the production of metal parts instead of pouring hot molten metal into a cast that could have air bubble in it that could weaken a metal component of an engine part. Last but not least Lexus/Toyota leads the way at hybrid technology...you can research that yourself.

You state that the Lexus line-up is stale, I agree with you. Lexus is on a longer cycle now before they revamp/renew their whole model line-up. Remember this commercial was about the Lexus engineering and not the asthetics/looks/appearance that you so desire.

 

Just gotta wait for all that engineering prowess that went into the LFA to trickle down to the rest of the Lexus lineup in the next gen models.

 

Very cool videos, good job Lexus . That last video needs to be heavily pushed on internet and TV to rub it in the faces of competitors for once .

Wait until the product onslaught of next-gen Lexus models begins. Obviously Lexus isn't doing much excluding a few models because this is a slow time before their big next-gen roll out of new models. The LFA does quite a lot to push the industry forward, and you'll see soon enough how the next-gen Lexus models push the industry forward.

Don't underestimate Toyota. They have big things coming.

 

Toyota/Lexus should create an in-between division to compete with Buick and the aforementioned Mercury.

Let's call this division Twexus (Toyota, tweener, Lexus)

Models will be be names as oppose to alpha-numeric designations:

Tregal
Trucerne
TraCrosse
Trenclave

No orgininality and I'm kidding of course unless Toyota/Lexus sees this as feasible and a logical idea...

 

Next generation A and B class will use Renault engines...

I dont know if you can call largest technological achievement in past few decades "only trump card"... how many do you need to have? Most of the other stuff comes from the outsourcing and whoever pays gets them too.

Obviously ES, IS, GS, LS are all old models now due to be replaced soon.

BMW had huge issues with turbos, MB has reached Lexus levels in V6 after 6-7 years and Audi... well did Audi reach it with their V6's? I dont think so.

M5 makes those numbers with two turbos. LFA makes them in naturally aspirated engine.

Honestly, I could care less about GS-F that will sell 5k across its lifetime, if lucky.

I want ones that I buy to have good tech and good engines.... and GR V6 engine with dual injection is probably still the engine to beat, after 6 years of its introduction.

 

I must say Lexus has got to be among the most hated brands on the internets! Check out the comments in this link:

http://www.autoblog.com/2011/06/17/a...-future-proof/