Manual Usage below 10%...
03-02-10, 01:48 PM
#61
And Och, I'm calling you out. You said you opted for the automatic on your car so I've got an issue with you saying learning to drive manual didn't make you a better driver; it's not the learning to muddle your way through driving stick and doing an ok job of it that makes you better, it's driving stick every day in every circumstance.
It's how you corner, how you hill start with someone right on your bumper (W.O THE E-BRAKE PPL), it's how you slow down / rev match, not just how well you can up shift from the stop light - that's the easy part.
Knowing how to drive stick and actually being a manual driver are different; and I am completely comfortable in saying that before the Bimmer there was no way I was qualified to give a valid opinion on what it's like to be a manual driver.
It's how you corner, how you hill start with someone right on your bumper (W.O THE E-BRAKE PPL), it's how you slow down / rev match, not just how well you can up shift from the stop light - that's the easy part.
Knowing how to drive stick and actually being a manual driver are different; and I am completely comfortable in saying that before the Bimmer there was no way I was qualified to give a valid opinion on what it's like to be a manual driver.
With that being said, I still don't see how driving a stick makes one a better driver. So you learn the aerobics of shifting, clutching, revmatching, etc - and while these are definitely good and useful techniques to learn, and definitely help you get the feel for your car, they can't match modern electronics. No matter how good you get with these techniques, I would still much rather rely on a modern automatic/CVT with hill assist function.
Ever drove up/down a very steep slope on a rainy day with manual? In a Lexus, you wouldn't even know there's a slope.
Ever stalled out trying to hill start with someone right on your bumper? Can never happen in a modern automatic.
Ever over-revved by down shifting into a wrong gear or at high RPMs? Doesn't happen with automatics.
Ever fry your clutch? Not an issue with automatics.
Like I said before, to me driving a manual on daily basis is like using a typewriter instead of Microsoft Word. Yeah, maybe it will make me a better speller, but I still won't be a match for the MS Word spell-check
03-02-10, 01:56 PM
#62
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03-02-10, 02:09 PM
#64
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First of all, I'd pretty much rather have anthrax than drive a stick every day
With that being said, I still don't see how driving a stick makes one a better driver. So you learn the aerobics of shifting, clutching, revmatching, etc - and while these are definitely good and useful techniques to learn, and definitely help you get the feel for your car, they can't match modern electronics. No matter how good you get with these techniques, I would still much rather rely on a modern automatic/CVT with hill assist function.
Ever drove up/down a very steep slope on a rainy day with manual? In a Lexus, you wouldn't even know there's a slope.
Ever stalled out trying to hill start with someone right on your bumper? Can never happen in a modern automatic.
Ever over-revved by down shifting into a wrong gear or at high RPMs? Doesn't happen with automatics.
Ever fry your clutch? Not an issue with automatics.
With that being said, I still don't see how driving a stick makes one a better driver. So you learn the aerobics of shifting, clutching, revmatching, etc - and while these are definitely good and useful techniques to learn, and definitely help you get the feel for your car, they can't match modern electronics. No matter how good you get with these techniques, I would still much rather rely on a modern automatic/CVT with hill assist function.
Ever drove up/down a very steep slope on a rainy day with manual? In a Lexus, you wouldn't even know there's a slope.
Ever stalled out trying to hill start with someone right on your bumper? Can never happen in a modern automatic.
Ever over-revved by down shifting into a wrong gear or at high RPMs? Doesn't happen with automatics.
Ever fry your clutch? Not an issue with automatics.
Like I said before, to me driving a manual on daily basis is like using a typewriter instead of Microsoft Word. Yeah, maybe it will make me a better speller, but I still won't be a match for the MS Word spell-check
03-02-10, 02:26 PM
#65
when learn correctly and being guided well, driving mt is more than just knowing how to not stall the car (that's just the beginning)
you learn how to be in the right gear at the right time, so you know how to exit and accelerate correctly. you learn how to brake and downshift before turns, and stay in the right gear throughout the turns and then gas to exit. you learn how to be aware of all your surrounding and always be ready if something happens. you learn how to use gears and try to be cautious on brakes when you are on deep incline.
all those are not as trivial anymore when people drive automatic. i have seen so many times people dives into corners too quickly, brake through the corner, and lose control of their cars. they ride on their brakes all the way on deep incline not realizing brakes are fading fast. they lose concentrations when driving and not as aware of cars around them.
that's where learning and driving mt correctly will make you a better driver. i am not saying driving automatic will not make you a good driver, but you tend to lose the senses. and again, if you think true mt driving is nothing more than clutch and rev and not stall, then imho, you don't really know what driving a manual transmission is about
you learn how to be in the right gear at the right time, so you know how to exit and accelerate correctly. you learn how to brake and downshift before turns, and stay in the right gear throughout the turns and then gas to exit. you learn how to be aware of all your surrounding and always be ready if something happens. you learn how to use gears and try to be cautious on brakes when you are on deep incline.
all those are not as trivial anymore when people drive automatic. i have seen so many times people dives into corners too quickly, brake through the corner, and lose control of their cars. they ride on their brakes all the way on deep incline not realizing brakes are fading fast. they lose concentrations when driving and not as aware of cars around them.
that's where learning and driving mt correctly will make you a better driver. i am not saying driving automatic will not make you a good driver, but you tend to lose the senses. and again, if you think true mt driving is nothing more than clutch and rev and not stall, then imho, you don't really know what driving a manual transmission is about
03-02-10, 02:45 PM
#66
and all those things contribute to the driver paying less attention to what's going on and therefore making you a more careless driver (leading to more accedents etc) ... call me strange but maybe it's good to know if your car is on an incline, or which gear you're in.
Let me make another analogy with computers, you probably access this forum by clicking on the IE icon on your desktop, then selecting clublexus from your favorites. Instead you could go to the command prompt, type in "C:\Progra~1\Intern~1\iexplore.exe" and then manually typing in the web address. But whats the point?
Whats wrong with being good and having the benefit of the machine assisting you?
03-02-10, 02:52 PM
#67
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[stand up in crowded room]
"my name is Jason, and I drive a stick"
[sits back down]
I learned how to ride a motorcycle at 10 years old, and how to drive a stick-shift car at 15. In the 27 years since I first shifted a manual gearbox, I have owned exactly one automatic vehicle. And that was only because it was handed down to me from my sister, when the 78 Ford Fiesta I was driving at the time finally popped.
I drive a stick every day in bumper-to-bumper traffic with minimal complaint, and have for years. Same with a motorcycle (clutch hand becomes very strong after a while).
Piloting a manual tranny vehicle makes you a much better driver by far. It forces you to pay more attention to what your vehicle is doing, as well as to what is happening in the environment around you. That lady reading the paper and putting on make-up in the lane beside you - not driving a stick. That 17 year old kid texting inside his Civic - yep, automatic. They don't need to pay attention, as the car is doing all the work. And that's not even getting into the dynamics of real driving.
I'll own a stick as long as they keep making them. May limit my options, but I'm OK with that. And the day my daughter can reach the petals, she'll learn to work a clutch as well....
"my name is Jason, and I drive a stick"
[sits back down]
I learned how to ride a motorcycle at 10 years old, and how to drive a stick-shift car at 15. In the 27 years since I first shifted a manual gearbox, I have owned exactly one automatic vehicle. And that was only because it was handed down to me from my sister, when the 78 Ford Fiesta I was driving at the time finally popped.
I drive a stick every day in bumper-to-bumper traffic with minimal complaint, and have for years. Same with a motorcycle (clutch hand becomes very strong after a while).
Piloting a manual tranny vehicle makes you a much better driver by far. It forces you to pay more attention to what your vehicle is doing, as well as to what is happening in the environment around you. That lady reading the paper and putting on make-up in the lane beside you - not driving a stick. That 17 year old kid texting inside his Civic - yep, automatic. They don't need to pay attention, as the car is doing all the work. And that's not even getting into the dynamics of real driving.
I'll own a stick as long as they keep making them. May limit my options, but I'm OK with that. And the day my daughter can reach the petals, she'll learn to work a clutch as well....
03-02-10, 02:58 PM
#68
when learn correctly and being guided well, driving mt is more than just knowing how to not stall the car (that's just the beginning)
you learn how to be in the right gear at the right time, so you know how to exit and accelerate correctly. you learn how to brake and downshift before turns, and stay in the right gear throughout the turns and then gas to exit. you learn how to be aware of all your surrounding and always be ready if something happens. you learn how to use gears and try to be cautious on brakes when you are on deep incline.
all those are not as trivial anymore when people drive automatic. i have seen so many times people dives into corners too quickly, brake through the corner, and lose control of their cars. they ride on their brakes all the way on deep incline not realizing brakes are fading fast. they lose concentrations when driving and not as aware of cars around them.
that's where learning and driving mt correctly will make you a better driver. i am not saying driving automatic will not make you a good driver, but you tend to lose the senses. and again, if you think true mt driving is nothing more than clutch and rev and not stall, then imho, you don't really know what driving a manual transmission is about
you learn how to be in the right gear at the right time, so you know how to exit and accelerate correctly. you learn how to brake and downshift before turns, and stay in the right gear throughout the turns and then gas to exit. you learn how to be aware of all your surrounding and always be ready if something happens. you learn how to use gears and try to be cautious on brakes when you are on deep incline.
all those are not as trivial anymore when people drive automatic. i have seen so many times people dives into corners too quickly, brake through the corner, and lose control of their cars. they ride on their brakes all the way on deep incline not realizing brakes are fading fast. they lose concentrations when driving and not as aware of cars around them.
that's where learning and driving mt correctly will make you a better driver. i am not saying driving automatic will not make you a good driver, but you tend to lose the senses. and again, if you think true mt driving is nothing more than clutch and rev and not stall, then imho, you don't really know what driving a manual transmission is about
Don't get me wrong, if I was to take a car around a racetrack, I'd opt for something light, high revving, with a manual transmission and none of the electronic gizmos. But for everyday driving, no way.
03-02-10, 04:27 PM
#69
So Och you agree that it would be sad to see manuals go completely?
I understand that automatics are the way of the future for the majority but it would be a sad day when you no longer had the option (or privilege) to row your own gears.
The only way to keep manuals alive is to get more people to drive them on their daily vehicles. My car is by no means a sports car but still revving the snot out of it is fun and getting a heel-toe shift just right is such an awesome feeling.
I understand that automatics are the way of the future for the majority but it would be a sad day when you no longer had the option (or privilege) to row your own gears.
The only way to keep manuals alive is to get more people to drive them on their daily vehicles. My car is by no means a sports car but still revving the snot out of it is fun and getting a heel-toe shift just right is such an awesome feeling.
03-02-10, 04:31 PM
#70
So Och you agree that it would be sad to see manuals go completely?
I understand that automatics are the way of the future for the majority but it would be a sad day when you no longer had the option (or privilege) to row your own gears.
The only way to keep manuals alive is to get more people to drive them on their daily vehicles. My car is by no means a sports car but still revving the snot out of it is fun and getting a heel-toe shift just right is such an awesome feeling.
I understand that automatics are the way of the future for the majority but it would be a sad day when you no longer had the option (or privilege) to row your own gears.
The only way to keep manuals alive is to get more people to drive them on their daily vehicles. My car is by no means a sports car but still revving the snot out of it is fun and getting a heel-toe shift just right is such an awesome feeling.
03-02-10, 04:42 PM
#71
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I would assume that it would be more costly to install an 8 speed auto into the 550i versus a 6MT.
03-02-10, 05:05 PM
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With all due respect, most of what you're describing applies to racetrack driving, not every day driving, and a lot of it can be done with automatics as well. A lot of automatics let you downshift as well, and concentration/awareness doesn't have anything to do with the type of transmission.
We're not saying that ONLY manual drivers are good drivers; we're saying that automatic drivers are way more likely to be absent minded and have a lower driving skill set due to the machine doing the work for you.
To revisit your computer example: does that mean I know less about the computer becuase I don't type out the lines of code? Absolutely. When we had only DOS based machines in the house I used to know all the ins and out of how to make exactly what I wanted happen. Now that Windows has all these pretty icons you can point to and click on, I'm out of practice and I'm not nearly the user I used to be. That said, I still use lots of keyboard commands but I'm no where near as good as I used to be.
Piloting a manual tranny vehicle makes you a much better driver by far. It forces you to pay more attention to what your vehicle is doing, as well as to what is happening in the environment around you. That lady reading the paper and putting on make-up in the lane beside you - not driving a stick. That 17 year old kid texting inside his Civic - yep, automatic. They don't need to pay attention, as the car is doing all the work. And that's not even getting into the dynamics of real driving.
03-02-10, 05:12 PM
#75
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