Discontinued Infiniti Q45 maybe Q50? (no replacement coming)
 

Has anyone heard anything of the Q45 being re-released as the Q50. I've read a few articles but all sound like it still isn't a for sure thing. Im hoping they do bring it back.

No new Q45 is coming, there is no business case for it. If it won't make money for Ghosn it won't get built.

Considering how amazing the class is now, S/7/LS/new A8/new XJ/Quattroporte, the Q45 or whatever would simply be an also-ran again.

The rumored 4 door sedan built off the GT-R was just that a rumor. I say leave it dead as its dead for a reason.

I agree to an extent, but I'm also a firm believer that you can't sell what you don't build (and I'm sure Ghosn also knows that). Still, even so, a number of auto firms seem reluctant to invest, right now, in new flagships (Jag, of course, being one of the exceptions, with its new XJ). There were Internet rumors (some, of course, right here on CL) that a new VW Phaeton was coming to the American market, but, if so, there was no sign of it at the D.C. Show last week...or, to my knowledge, at the Detroit Show. Cadillac has been talking for several years about replacing BOTH the STS and DeVille/DTS with an all-new, flagship sedan.......but still no sign of that, either.

Still, I don't know how long Infiniti can put off bringing out a true flagship that will compete with the Lexus LS460. You and I both know that the Q45 didn't cut it in the American market (and the reasons why)......so that doesn't need to be rehashed here. The M45, meanwhile, can serve as an interim flagship, and of course, has the V8 and RWD/AWD choice that you say is necessary for an umarket flagship, but, nevertheless, for several reasons, just is not a real competitor to the LS460. The 460/600H is a true luxury masterpiece, and, IMO, in its current class, has significant competition only from the Audi A8, BMW 7-series, and Mercedes S-Class.

If Infiniti doesn't get on the ball and start developing a new American-market flagship, they just (may) get upstarted by the upcoming Hyundai Equus. (Honest....Don't laugh). I saw the new Equus at the D.C Show last week, though I couldn't inspect it very closely because it was on a turntable. Still, from what I saw of it, and of the interior through the open doors, that is one IMPRESSIVE new luxury sedan. It is chock full of wood paneling everywhere inside (like a luxury car should be), and even has a brilliant chrome, Rolls-Royce style, Flying Lady hood ornament. Like the LS460, it appears to be a true luxury car, not a luxury-sport sedan, though, of course, I won't know until I review and test-drive it (I plan to).

I agree. This type of chassis, IMO, is not suitable as a 4-door sedan.

Q45s were interesting cars (especially back in the day with the active suspension) but lack of general buyer interest / resale values hit the car hard.

I think in this segment bang-for-buck is seriously outgunned by prestige / brand.

that sounds like a better plan than a new Q:thumbup:
too bad it got scrapped.

I thought there was a plan already in place to replace the DTS/STS

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/01/12/d...o-replace-sts/

Infiniti needs to build the Essence alot more than building a new Q-ship.

This would be the worst possible time to bring it back.

Yes, but, First, that is (apparantly) a concept car that has not been approved for production. Second, they didn't bring it to the D.C. Show (or, if so, I wasn't there on the days it was displayed). Third, although it is difficult to gauge its true size simply from the pictures, right off-hand, that concept looks to small to be a suitable replacement for the DTS. Cadillac flagships are supposed to be BIG.

Lincoln, BTW made the same mistake by not replacing the Town Car with something equally large...the MKS is a definite step smaller, though, fortunately, it has the AWD option the Town Car lacked.

And back to Infiniti...the thread topic. That was my original point....the Infiniti M-series is not really large enough to serve as an American-market flagship...they need to bring back a Q-sized car. The original Q, of course, did not sell, especially in Lexus-LS numbers, but that does not mean that a new one would not.

Mike, they don't need to b/c if they did it would fail again. The brand has not built up an image to command such a car. They never have. The segment is also very crowded. A new Q is like a VW Phaeton. Hell no one buys the wonderful A8 here.

A good car does not mean people will buy it at these price points. The RL is a good car and cannot be given away. People do not feel it is worth the price. The Q has always had that issue and it would not change today.

Just look at the new M56 pricing, I've browsed around and most are saying the price is way to high for the brand. It is around 60k. A new Q would be at least 70k, which is more than a base LS. It would hit 80k plus with options. People are not interested in it outside of a couple loyal fans who wouldn't/couldn't buy it anyway.

Actually the segment is not all that crowded. You seem to have two big players (the LS460 and the Mercedes S-Class) with a few others...A8, STS, 750, MKS. And the MKS and STS aren't quite in the same price class (but close). Not only do I think there's room for a big Infiniti flagship, but I think that's one reason WHY Infiniti doesn't have the "image" you just referred to above.....the M flagships are simply too small to be flagships, and the public, as a while considers the G-series a better value for the money.

The RL is an EXCELLENT car, but, yes, a arguement can be made (and here, I agree with you), that it is too small to be a true Tier-1 flagship. But, on the other hand, at 50K +/-, it doesn't sell for the kind of money that an LS460, A8, Mercedes S-class, etc..... does either. As to whether it is worth the price or not as it is, that, of course, is subjective. I personally feel it is probably worth 50K, but I myself simply wouldn't spend that kind of money for any new car (36-40K is about my limit). But, there are many people (including many posters here on CL) that WILL spend that kind of cash...you yourself did, for example, on a GS460H (and I'm not knocking that.....the 460H, like the RL, is an impressive piece of machinery). :thumbup:


What screwed the first Q up was not the price issue, but its poor marketing..........I've commented on that a number of times. It was introduced as an LS400 competitor, but was firmly-sprung, more sport-oriented, and with less emphasis on comfort than the LS400. People didn't want that in a big flagship...they wanted comfort and refinement. So, the 2-Gen Q had more wood inside, softer suspension/tires, and less power.....a smaller V8. The auto press panned it, and said it was TOO soft (which, IMO, I disagreed with). The 2Gen model probably would probably have sold more if more people had actually seen it and test-drove it, but by then, much of the damage had been done...potential Q45 buyers had already owned LS400s and were delighted with them, and decided to stay with Lexus. Then the 3-gen Q came out and tried to be a Jack-of-all Trades, while mastering at none, and it just sat in showrooms (during one of my Infiniti reviews, I was offered a brand-new Q, on the showroom floor, for 38K).

Will all of this happen again if a new Q comes out? Not in my opinion.....IF Infiniti gets it right this time, and does a true luxury flagship.....not a sports sedan like back in 1990.

All the more reason to bring out the RIGHT Q, at the RIGHT price. IMO, that would be a well-trimmed, comfort-oriented Q, somewhat larger than the M, but with a price that undercuts the LS460 a little. The M could be decontented a little (since it would no longer be the Infiniti flagship), and the price dropped a little. That would further separate the M from the Q. But, without a true flagship, Infiniti is going to keep having the same image problems (as Acura now does) that you complain about.

If Infiniti advertised the car right, had the right price, and styled it to what people want they could have a hit. All the previous Q45 weren't the best looking cars. Infiniti has finally brought their cars up to par with other luxury makers, but they still don't hold their value. Look how well the Genesis did. If Infiniti made something like that it could bring work.

Still won't work. Again, the brand has to be aspirational where people with serious coin won't think twice dropping 70-190k (S65 is that much) on a D class flagship. There is no line of people waiting for this car.

The Genesis hasn't come close to meeting sales goals. I think the result is mixed as it seems some enthusiasts know about it but the general public seems to miss it. I agree it has helped Hyundai but it hasn't been the grand slam I think many thought it would be.

They would sell 250 cars tops here (a month), and with no diesels it would struggle overseas.

No business case.

OK, so, if you don't think that another Q would carry the Infiniti banner against the LS460, then what would you propose for a new flagship, then? :uh:

I'd say do another try and simply give it a different designation. In fact, the "Q" designation is aleady shared by Infiniti SUV's (Q56, QX4)......the flagship probably should get something different.

Infiniti isn't Hyundai. It's a Luxury brand.

I think there is a market for a well designed Q56. price it 63k to 80k. a success here would take Infiniti to a next level. Q45 failed because just 7-8 years go Infiniti wasn't even acura's level. plus Q45 was ugly compared to german and lexus.

damn, how do you know so much?
:eek2:

I agree with a new name. but every friggin alphabet is probably taken. :)


i would say stick with Q for sedan and change the name on SUV. Qx56 and Q56 would be too similar.

Well Lexus has the LS and LX so they wouldn't have to change the name for the sake of confusion

Infiniti just scored in the near bottom of customer perception. They sell based on lower MSRP and lease rates. Contrary to popular belief they are not all driven by people that go to the track. They are driven by older people as well who want a great deal on a great vehicle.

We do not know the percentage of their most expensive model the M45 in regards to sales. We do know the G37 is 60% of their volume and the Q45 failed for 16 or so years.

Hey its not me. The facts are people bypass this brand as the asking price increases. Unless the new Q56 or whatever is another FM based car that requires minimal investment/economies of scale make it profitable, there is no market for it. Again, Audi can't sell an A8, Jaguar struggles with the XJ and the Phateon was flop. From what we see, the D-flagship category is dominated by the S-class/LS/7 series.

I say this over and over, just building a great car is NOT the only answer. As the price goes up, building a GREAT BRAND means more.



I sense sarcasm since you seem to have some personal issue with me.:confused: In particular regards to the Q45 I have been accurate over the years.
A basic rule Infintii hasn't figured out, not to mention the worst letter and numbers in the alphabet.

This is not a diss to the brand, I admire how far they have come. However there is nothing to suggest people want a new Q.

i think you build a great brand by making a great car. if infiniti can build a Q that is worthy to be called a true luxury flagship then it will only help the brand IMO regardless of the sales. no one buys A8, but audi gets enough respect. and Flagship is a must for a luxury company.

If I was infiniti, I would start developing and surprise the world by 2012 or so. who knows it will shake the car industry?

Infiniti needs to stay profitable before they venture back into tier 1 territory. Their current flagship, M35/45 isn't selling all that well, and they offer insanely low lease deals.

Before they start thinking about the next Q, they need to make the next M sell almost as well as 5 series/E class.

Still an interesting question, Mike. The M doesn't really seem to be fulfilling the flagship category. More people seem to actually be buying the G series because it is less expensive then the M, but with pretty much the same styling, and more or less the same interior (though the M has a little more wood). With a Q, they would (probably) be getting something substantially different.

Like I asked, though, in an earlier post, what would you suggest as an Infiniti flagship if you don't think another Q would cut it? :uh:

It's also interesting, at least to me, that you criticize the Acura RL, which is more or less the same exterior size as the M35/45, as being too small, yet you don't feel that Infiniti needs to do a larger flagship. Both cars, of course, offer AWD....the Acura standard and the M optional. The M45 of course, has a V8 and a choice of RWD/AWD...the RL doesn't.

Maybe both Infiniti and Acura are both looking to the future, though, and the upcoming CAFE standards. Although these standards, of course, are only a fleet-wide average, the more large cars with conventional gas V8 engines, the more difficult meeting the standards it potentially becomes.

Mike, I deleted my long winded response. The facts are I've been accurate about their decisions here and the public has spoken with sales. :)

I will say what I WOULD like to see is more manuals in Infiniti's to truly make them sporty (FX, M37/56, EX, etc) and a GT-R rebadge would have been fabulous.

As for the RL, it can't even compete in its own class, we have seen 3 GENERATIONS of the M to this same generation of the RL. Infiniti seems very interested in improving their vehicle, Acura has their head in the sand.

In regards to MPG I disagree as Acuras have pretty dismal MPG considering they don't offer V-8s and both are following Lexus with them having future hybrids coming.

Cheers and stay warm lol

I think you hit the nail on the head. Infiniti, as a brand, is hard to define and not the luxury mark it originally set out to be. I think people think more "sport" or "performance" rather than luxury when it comes to Infiniti. And when you add a $70k full-size sedan, it's emphasis is going to be on luxury, not sport (as most it's competitors are). People would not be looking for luxury from Infiniti and such an expensive car would linger on lots. I see them sticking to their smaller sporty models, which they do very well.

Yup, and this is exactly why introducing a flagship Essence Coupe is more in line with the brands cache then a big bloated flagship sedan.

Someone I work with was considering a BMW 535 and a Lexus GS350 AWD 2 years ago. He had driven Lexus for years, then was in an Audi A6, which he enjoyed driving, but not as to reliability. I suggested he look at the M35 AWD (sportiness of an A6, but reliability more equal to a Lexus)--he just kept talking as if I didn't say anything--he wouldn't even consider it.

Yes--just one example, but I think there is much truth to what 1Sick Says.

Infiniti's brand strategy has been a near disaster from day one. Pity because the company has made and continues to make great cars. The original Q was a very daring and bold statement and the company sabotaged it's own product with a nebulous and inaccessible zen-like promotion. It didn't match the car and worse, it didn't even let us see the damn thing. Infiniti has learned some lessons, hard ones, over the years but they still haven't figured out how to clearly communicate who they are.

I think they are obligated to try again for a top line flagship car. What form it takes is really the critical question. I would love a performance luxury sedan that DOESN'T look like a 7 or an LS or an S Class. If there's anyone one of these companies who needs to be bold in this segment it's Infiniti since they have to make a splash just to get people to notice.

You don't have to delete your responses with me. :) I'm always interested in hearing what you have to say, even in the relatively few cases where I disagree with it.


I'm sure you remember.....for the GT-R/Skyline, Nissan officials wrestled back and forth between the Nissan and Infiniti badge for some time before the company finally decided on Nissan. Ghosn (probably) ? made the choice himself, though there is no proof of that.


Granted, the M outsells all 3 generations of the Q45, but one of the M's biggest problems is the G itself, because the G is almost the same car for substantially less money. That's part of the problem......Infiniti doesn't have a REAL flagship, so the one they tempoarily have now plays second-fiddle to the car right below it.



As for V8s and the coming CAFE standards, my guess (and, I emphasize, it is a guess, not necessarily fact) is that it is likely that most of the V8s will end up being hybrids or diesels. Lexus, of course, as you point out, already has a head start on that....and, of course, you have already voted with your own pocket on that with your GS. I think Infiniti will follow, too....even if you are correct and we don't see another Q flagship. The RL may need to go to a hybrid or diesel, even with the V6........the full-time AWD, of course, impacts fuel mileage....as do the AWD options on the existing Infiniti/Lexus series.


Thanks.....the immediate multi-blizzard crisis around here is lessening up around here. Unlike states like OH, MI, WI, NY, IN, etc..... this area is just not used to....and not prepared for......huge snowfall totals. I and my neighbors got through both huge storms (Thank You, Lord :)) without a power failure or roof collapse, as a number of others in the area suffered. Our condo-townhouse development, for a number of reasons, can't practically install emergency generators (and we have electric heat).

My Outback has just been unbelievable in these conditions, though, of course, as a non-essential driver, I stayed off the roads until the storm was over, as requested by local officials. It is filthy, though, and I haven't been able to clean it. Hope to next week....or maybe tomorrow, but it will just get filthy again.

The Q45 disappeared a while back and I think for it to reemerge after al of this time will really be difficult. The engineers at Nissan will need to work over time. I do miss the crazy headlights and nice lines of the car

The M will be the true flagship since Infiniti is going to get a new FWD model to slot between the G and the M that compete with the TL and ES. The new M is huge and only a few inches short of the SWB LS, so I don't see why so many of you are saying the Q needs to come back. The M also cost nearly as much as an entry level LS.

As I see it the G is the entry level the future FWD car will be the mid level, and the M is the flagship.

Agreed. Not to mention Infiniti is also planning a new model slotted below the G, so there will be plenty of diversity in their lineup very very soon. I just think they should expand the M line and introduce a LWB option and maybe even offer a high end version with a supercharged V8/ or hybrid system, or even an M coupe to cater to a broader base. They have had much success with the M and it has become their flagship. I see no reason why they need a new Q or any other sedan above the M. They don't have to follow the formula of the competition, just expand on their successes. They should also bring out the Essence in my opinion, which would serve as their "halo" car.

Sorry but a FM based car is not a D class flagship. It performs well in its class it does have the image/panache/luxury/size/options/features of the LS/S/7 etc class.

The M37/56 is in the 5/GS/E class segment which Infiniti has stated themselves. They are not confused with where it is positioned so we should not be.

The RL and M are "their" flagships but clearly not true D class Flagships.

Apples to Oranges.:)

Yes I'm not saying the M is in the same segment as true flagships but the M itself is worthy to be Infiniti's flagship if that makes any sense :) That's not something that can be said of the RL though lol.

Anyway for a near luxury brand like Infiniti the flagship model usually competes with true luxury brands midlevel model. Perfect example being Saab and Volvo.

Yes, the M is big, but, IMO, not big enough to be a flagship in this class of vehicle.

Infiniti is not the only manufacturer to make this error. Cadillac, Lincoln, and Buick have all either dropped or are in the process of dropping their largest, heaviest models. The Town Car is virtually gone, and the DTS and Buick Lucerne will likely soon be gone, too. IMO, that is a mistake.

And.....I'm sure that Mike (1SICKLEX) will agree with me on this one :D.........the Acura RL, while otherwise a superb car, is also a little too small to be a true flagship.

Gotcha......


:v8acura: yup among other things:D

Update
 

Well, it looks like most of the dealerships here don't even agree with their own chief. And, in general, individual dealerships know more of what they need than some executive thousands of miles away....the dealerships are the ones that actually sell the cars on a day-to-day basis, and generate the income.

Infiniti needs a REAL flagship car for their fleet! The M is not it, its weird for a lux brand to not have one then expecting to be taken seriously. You think they would want to compete in every class with the competion (BMW, Lexus, MB & Audi) instead of throwing in the towel, make a flagship people want to buy.

Here is the actual article...

http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dl...3/303159948/-1

As for you Infiniti dealers who are eager for a flagship sedan to replace the Q45, which was pulled from the lineup in 2006 -- well, don't hold your breath.

Nissan officials have made noises about a new full-sized flagship to compete against the Lexus LS 460, BMW 7 series and Mercedes-Benz S class. Toru Saito, vice president of the global Infiniti business unit, said several regional markets have requested a return of the big sedan. But he points out that the Q45 never sold well in the United States, which is its most natural market.

What's more, the redesigned M sedan, arriving this month, approaches the old Q45 in size.

The M will "play a flagship role" to test how strong the brand is, Saito said at the Geneva auto show this month. Should there be demand for a fully loaded M sedan, then maybe a new Q would be developed.

"I would like an iconic product," Saito said, "but the No. 1 challenge is the environment and efficiency."

http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcsi.d...tle=1&MaxW=600

Each manufacture should just work on key aspects of what they are good at, we don't need everything from everyone.

The Q45 where nice cars but, not even close to the Germans or Lexus in terms of status, and this is a segment where the buyer wants the car to be noticed for what it is, and how much it cost