COOLIS

Has anyone heard anything of the Q45 being re-released as the Q50. I've read a few articles but all sound like it still isn't a for sure thing. Im hoping they do bring it back.

LexFather

No new Q45 is coming, there is no business case for it. If it won't make money for Ghosn it won't get built.

Considering how amazing the class is now, S/7/LS/new A8/new XJ/Quattroporte, the Q45 or whatever would simply be an also-ran again.

The rumored 4 door sedan built off the GT-R was just that a rumor. I say leave it dead as its dead for a reason.

mmarshall

I agree to an extent, but I'm also a firm believer that you can't sell what you don't build (and I'm sure Ghosn also knows that). Still, even so, a number of auto firms seem reluctant to invest, right now, in new flagships (Jag, of course, being one of the exceptions, with its new XJ). There were Internet rumors (some, of course, right here on CL) that a new VW Phaeton was coming to the American market, but, if so, there was no sign of it at the D.C. Show last week...or, to my knowledge, at the Detroit Show. Cadillac has been talking for several years about replacing BOTH the STS and DeVille/DTS with an all-new, flagship sedan.......but still no sign of that, either.

Still, I don't know how long Infiniti can put off bringing out a true flagship that will compete with the Lexus LS460. You and I both know that the Q45 didn't cut it in the American market (and the reasons why)......so that doesn't need to be rehashed here. The M45, meanwhile, can serve as an interim flagship, and of course, has the V8 and RWD/AWD choice that you say is necessary for an umarket flagship, but, nevertheless, for several reasons, just is not a real competitor to the LS460. The 460/600H is a true luxury masterpiece, and, IMO, in its current class, has significant competition only from the Audi A8, BMW 7-series, and Mercedes S-Class.

If Infiniti doesn't get on the ball and start developing a new American-market flagship, they just (may) get upstarted by the upcoming Hyundai Equus. (Honest....Don't laugh). I saw the new Equus at the D.C Show last week, though I couldn't inspect it very closely because it was on a turntable. Still, from what I saw of it, and of the interior through the open doors, that is one IMPRESSIVE new luxury sedan. It is chock full of wood paneling everywhere inside (like a luxury car should be), and even has a brilliant chrome, Rolls-Royce style, Flying Lady hood ornament. Like the LS460, it appears to be a true luxury car, not a luxury-sport sedan, though, of course, I won't know until I review and test-drive it (I plan to).

I agree. This type of chassis, IMO, is not suitable as a 4-door sedan.

werewolf

Q45s were interesting cars (especially back in the day with the active suspension) but lack of general buyer interest / resale values hit the car hard.

I think in this segment bang-for-buck is seriously outgunned by prestige / brand.

GS3Tek

iTrader: (8)

that sounds like a better plan than a new Q
too bad it got scrapped.

Koma

iTrader: (3)

I thought there was a plan already in place to replace the DTS/STS

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/01/12/d...o-replace-sts/

GlobeCLK

iTrader: (5)

Infiniti needs to build the Essence alot more than building a new Q-ship.

marshmallo

This would be the worst possible time to bring it back.

mmarshall

Yes, but, First, that is (apparantly) a concept car that has not been approved for production. Second, they didn't bring it to the D.C. Show (or, if so, I wasn't there on the days it was displayed). Third, although it is difficult to gauge its true size simply from the pictures, right off-hand, that concept looks to small to be a suitable replacement for the DTS. Cadillac flagships are supposed to be BIG.

Lincoln, BTW made the same mistake by not replacing the Town Car with something equally large...the MKS is a definite step smaller, though, fortunately, it has the AWD option the Town Car lacked.

And back to Infiniti...the thread topic. That was my original point....the Infiniti M-series is not really large enough to serve as an American-market flagship...they need to bring back a Q-sized car. The original Q, of course, did not sell, especially in Lexus-LS numbers, but that does not mean that a new one would not.

LexFather

Mike, they don't need to b/c if they did it would fail again. The brand has not built up an image to command such a car. They never have. The segment is also very crowded. A new Q is like a VW Phaeton. Hell no one buys the wonderful A8 here.

A good car does not mean people will buy it at these price points. The RL is a good car and cannot be given away. People do not feel it is worth the price. The Q has always had that issue and it would not change today.

Just look at the new M56 pricing, I've browsed around and most are saying the price is way to high for the brand. It is around 60k. A new Q would be at least 70k, which is more than a base LS. It would hit 80k plus with options. People are not interested in it outside of a couple loyal fans who wouldn't/couldn't buy it anyway.

mmarshall

Actually the segment is not all that crowded. You seem to have two big players (the LS460 and the Mercedes S-Class) with a few others...A8, STS, 750, MKS. And the MKS and STS aren't quite in the same price class (but close). Not only do I think there's room for a big Infiniti flagship, but I think that's one reason WHY Infiniti doesn't have the "image" you just referred to above.....the M flagships are simply too small to be flagships, and the public, as a while considers the G-series a better value for the money.

The RL is an EXCELLENT car, but, yes, a arguement can be made (and here, I agree with you), that it is too small to be a true Tier-1 flagship. But, on the other hand, at 50K +/-, it doesn't sell for the kind of money that an LS460, A8, Mercedes S-class, etc..... does either. As to whether it is worth the price or not as it is, that, of course, is subjective. I personally feel it is probably worth 50K, but I myself simply wouldn't spend that kind of money for any new car (36-40K is about my limit). But, there are many people (including many posters here on CL) that WILL spend that kind of cash...you yourself did, for example, on a GS460H (and I'm not knocking that.....the 460H, like the RL, is an impressive piece of machinery).


What screwed the first Q up was not the price issue, but its poor marketing..........I've commented on that a number of times. It was introduced as an LS400 competitor, but was firmly-sprung, more sport-oriented, and with less emphasis on comfort than the LS400. People didn't want that in a big flagship...they wanted comfort and refinement. So, the 2-Gen Q had more wood inside, softer suspension/tires, and less power.....a smaller V8. The auto press panned it, and said it was TOO soft (which, IMO, I disagreed with). The 2Gen model probably would probably have sold more if more people had actually seen it and test-drove it, but by then, much of the damage had been done...potential Q45 buyers had already owned LS400s and were delighted with them, and decided to stay with Lexus. Then the 3-gen Q came out and tried to be a Jack-of-all Trades, while mastering at none, and it just sat in showrooms (during one of my Infiniti reviews, I was offered a brand-new Q, on the showroom floor, for 38K).

Will all of this happen again if a new Q comes out? Not in my opinion.....IF Infiniti gets it right this time, and does a true luxury flagship.....not a sports sedan like back in 1990.

All the more reason to bring out the RIGHT Q, at the RIGHT price. IMO, that would be a well-trimmed, comfort-oriented Q, somewhat larger than the M, but with a price that undercuts the LS460 a little. The M could be decontented a little (since it would no longer be the Infiniti flagship), and the price dropped a little. That would further separate the M from the Q. But, without a true flagship, Infiniti is going to keep having the same image problems (as Acura now does) that you complain about.

COOLIS

If Infiniti advertised the car right, had the right price, and styled it to what people want they could have a hit. All the previous Q45 weren't the best looking cars. Infiniti has finally brought their cars up to par with other luxury makers, but they still don't hold their value. Look how well the Genesis did. If Infiniti made something like that it could bring work.

LexFather

Still won't work. Again, the brand has to be aspirational where people with serious coin won't think twice dropping 70-190k (S65 is that much) on a D class flagship. There is no line of people waiting for this car.

The Genesis hasn't come close to meeting sales goals. I think the result is mixed as it seems some enthusiasts know about it but the general public seems to miss it. I agree it has helped Hyundai but it hasn't been the grand slam I think many thought it would be.

They would sell 250 cars tops here (a month), and with no diesels it would struggle overseas.

No business case.

mmarshall

OK, so, if you don't think that another Q would carry the Infiniti banner against the LS460, then what would you propose for a new flagship, then?

I'd say do another try and simply give it a different designation. In fact, the "Q" designation is aleady shared by Infiniti SUV's (Q56, QX4)......the flagship probably should get something different.

joe80

Infiniti isn't Hyundai. It's a Luxury brand.

I think there is a market for a well designed Q56. price it 63k to 80k. a success here would take Infiniti to a next level. Q45 failed because just 7-8 years go Infiniti wasn't even acura's level. plus Q45 was ugly compared to german and lexus.