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View Poll Results: Does Lexus have too many entry level cars?
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Does Lexus have TOO many entry level cars

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Old 12-05-09, 02:40 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by 1SICKLEX View Post
I suck at multi-quote
And, I sometimes suck at correct spelling/punctuation.

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Actually they have not. The TSX sells okay and I do believe it will hit its 40k a year sales goal. The TL's goal was 70k and they will hit 40k. That is a HUGE miss. The TL is an utter disaster and failure.
Even if the TL doesn't hit the 70K goal, 40K in today's economy isn't bad, particularly for an upmarket sedan. Not every car can have Camry/Accord sales figures.
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Old 12-05-09, 03:06 PM   #19
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How does one define entry level these days? For instance (just an example here don't trip), my 3 series coupe costs as much as a brand new Lexus GS460. Lexus HS250H cost more than some larger luxury cars from other manufactures as well. So what is truly entry level these days?
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Old 12-05-09, 03:11 PM   #20
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How does one define entry level these days? For instance (just an example here don't trip), my 3 series coupe costs as much as a brand new Lexus GS460. Lexus HS250H cost more than some larger luxury cars from other manufactures as well. So what is truly entry level these days?

I think most of us, as me and Mike (1SICKLEX) do, would define an entry-level luxury vehicle as costing between 30-40K and from an upmarket-nameplate automaker. Several lower-priced versions of the BMW 1 and 3-series, for example, fit that category.
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Old 12-05-09, 03:12 PM   #21
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No, I don't think Lexus has too many entry-level cars, but they seriously took a leap of faith with the HS styling.

Otherwise, they got it good...affordable and feature-laden FWD (ES), smaller and sportier RWD (IS), FWD SUV with avail AWD (RX).

Last edited by superchan7; 12-05-09 at 03:15 PM.
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Old 12-05-09, 03:25 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by 1SICKLEX View Post
The one vehicle I hear more about "image' is the C-class. People like to pick on it for being the "baby" Lexus or "you can't afford a real Benz" Utter garbage. The one thing I've heard in person about the ES is "Its a fancy Camry". not that its entry-level.
The C-Class of today is more worthy of representing Mercedes-Benz, but its earliest antecedent, the 190 E, was very heavily criticized in its day as "not a real Benz". At the time, I remember criticism of its cramped dimensions, lower-grade materials, especially when compared to the rest of the lineup. Some articles reference this:

http://www.automobilesdeluxe.tv/the-baby-benz/
http://www.automobilesdeluxe.tv/bmw-...mercedes-cant/

As for the ES, definitely the Camry association is the most common knock against it..."Camry with frosting", "overpriced Camry" etc. Tell that to a Camry owner or driver. However, even the short-lived first generation still was spacious, and had quality materials (the brochure mentioned how the wood was the same on the RMS Queen Mary, for instance). Today though, the ES has gained a reputation as the midsize luxury comfort-riding sedan...witness its top rankings in publications for stress-free and less than exciting luxury driving, and how it is now the target of a number of manufacturers.

Actually regarding the entry-level discussion, I'd say that the HS initially did give me some 190 E-style fears, because of the exterior styling. Having now sat inside the car, I do feel assuaged by its fit and finish, the materials and functionality. It is the first 4-cylinder Lexus, and the overall styling is not a standout for the brand, but probably buyers will regard it in the hybrid-differentiation category.
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Old 12-05-09, 04:22 PM   #23
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Based on the solid success of Lexus, it's not something they need to worry about. Each product in their portfolio needs to stand on its own merits.
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Old 12-05-09, 04:25 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by superchan7 View Post
No, I don't think Lexus has too many entry-level cars, but they seriously took a leap of faith with the HS styling.
Ugly was started with the trend-setting Prius (especially first 2 gens), but you can see latest version getting watered-down. I expect the HS to get improved styling in its next version too. But the ultra-efficient hybrid category is unique.
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Old 12-05-09, 04:34 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by IS-SV View Post
Ugly was started with the trend-setting Prius (especially first 2 gens), but you can see latest version getting watered-down. I expect the HS to get improved styling in its next version too. But the ultra-efficient hybrid category is unique.
HS does not have much to do with Prius ;-).
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Old 12-05-09, 06:57 PM   #26
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Instead of moving the ES up(VERY bad idea IMO), they should just make the next GS VERY sporty to further differentialte itself from the same size ES.

ES aren't available outside most of N.America anyway, not even Japan, although I have seen them in the middle east ...
The fact that ES aren't offered anywhere except NA is quite peculiar.

I agree that moving the ES upmarket would be risky, but it wouldn't be a bad idea. I know you're from Canada and the price there is already high, so moving it upmarket there wouldn't be good, but here in the US 90% of ES's on dealer lots are $40K or more. To move it upmarket would only involve making the most popular options and packages standard and only having one or two packages to choose from instead of 4 or 5. FWIW the 270hp Cadillac CTS (although RWD) is priced at about $40K. All I'm suggesting is for the ES to match the price and feature content of the CTS, which is still selling well in this economy. I'm not saying that the ES should move up 10 grand but it could move up modestly to make room for it's lower priced siblings. Then Lexus could add an AWD option and an even higher priced hybrid variant (ES450h). If they wanted to they could even add an HS300h (2.7L I4 +electric motor) to absorb some former low end ES buyers.

Again this all would be a VERY risky move, but it would be quite interesting. Would it be successful? Who knows. They would probably lose some sales on the ES, but the hope would be that some of the former "low end" ES customers would buy the HS/IS. What makes this slightly different from Acura moving the TL upmarket is, that former TL customers had no where to go when the move was made. Acura should have made sure the TSX was ready to absorb former TL customers but they didn't bring a V6 TSX until after the fact and by then the buyers had already left. Lexus already has two really strong entry level sedans so an ES move would be far less catastrophic. Oh and the ES isn't butt ugly so that also helps. Anyway I want to reiterate that I doubt this would ever happen but it's an idea.

I REALLY hope they make the next GS VERY sporty but Lexus can't alienate too many of the original GS buyers. What could really differentiate the GS is making the interior materials and quality EQUAL to the LS, so that it feels like a more significant upgrade over the ES (right now, the ES and GS are both too close in interior feel).

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Based on the solid success of Lexus, it's not something they need to worry about.
If it aint broke don't fix it haha
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Old 12-05-09, 07:00 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by IS-SV View Post
Ugly was started with the trend-setting Prius (especially first 2 gens), but you can see latest version getting watered-down.
How is ugliness in the 3Gen model "Watered Down"? IMO, I don't see the 3Gen Prius as looking any better than the first two, and, to boot, it uses cheaper, flimsier materials for the body and interior.
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Old 12-05-09, 07:07 PM   #28
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To clarify, while N America is the ES' largest market, the ES is currently sold in:

US
Canada
Brazil
China
Korea
Philippines
Taiwan
Bahrain
Kuwait
Oman
Qatar
Saudi Arabia
United Arab Emirates

...and in many of those markets it is the top-selling Lexus model.
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Old 12-05-09, 07:48 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by encore888 View Post
To clarify, while N America is the ES' largest market, the ES is currently sold in:

US
Canada
Brazil
China
Korea
Philippines
Taiwan
Bahrain
Kuwait
Oman
Qatar
Saudi Arabia
United Arab Emirates

...and in many of those markets it is the top-selling Lexus model.
It's (probaby) the top-selling Lexus sedan in America, too, although there is no doubting the extreme popularity of the RX as an SUV.
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Old 12-05-09, 08:10 PM   #30
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I have heard the same as well. The ES sells like hot cakes.
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