Help me buy a new SUV
Intermediate
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 265
Likes: 19
From: CA
You're right...many Internet forums can be overblown. That's one reason I like Club Lexus...and have stayed on for so long. CL's car forums are definitely better than average. But even Club Lexus doesn't have over a million people responding to surveys. Our membership may be one-tenth of that (you, as a moderator, probably have access to the exact figure; I don't)
I can only refer to the Honda Pilot because I know their data on this one is false. With the hundreds of thousands of Honda Pilot owners, how many were surveyed? because obviously they cannot have over a million survey on a product with less than a million, or do they?
Its kind of ridiculous to have this assumption that just because someone have the CR report to refer to, that somehow he would know more about the Honda Pilot than actual owners.
Anyways, I would like to end my posts on this thread with the same way I started, with advice warnings.
If you consider the Pilot, I would suggest that you move close to a Honda dealership. This will save you a lot of time going back and forth for warranty repairs. Upgrade the sound system and buy more speakers to suppress the ROAD NOISE. And lastly, On long trips, buy ear plugs or headsets if you plan a long drive, your passengers will appreciate it.
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 14,100
Likes: 1
From: tech capital
Most likely the CR reliability surveys missed some Pilot tranny failures, but as stated above the surveys are not perfect and still provide useful guidance on reliability of specific models. Even in the case of the Pilot the entire chart isn't necessarily bad, only the line regarding major transmission issues. For example I know of some Porsche engine failures (related to IMS failures) that are not being captured well in CR surveys, but many of these failures result in assistance from Porsche. I have 2 friends that are long term owners of previous generation Pilots and they have no tranny problems, but that hardly makes up a widespread survey.
But as of today CR reliability charts are the best available information of this type.
But as of today CR reliability charts are the best available information of this type.
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 94,223
Likes: 221
From: Virginia/D.C. suburbs
so if i'm looking for a porsche 911 turbo, do i base on ratings based on 2 responses to CR, or do i go trawl the internet in seconds?
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 94,223
Likes: 221
From: Virginia/D.C. suburbs
can you tell us something about them? kinds of questions? were they consistent from one to another? are the questions subjective or more objective? do they attempt to evaluate one person's problems with a vehicle vs. another's? so one person may have a rattle they don't report, and another may report that it's the biggest p.o.s. ever because of that. 
their annual report, is it only based on this year's survey results, or is it inclusive of all prior year reports too? if the latter, isn't that meaningless, because someone who reports on an '05 car in '06 for example, may have a completely different impression by the time '09 comes around??
inquiring minds want to know.
their annual report, is it only based on this year's survey results, or is it inclusive of all prior year reports too? if the latter, isn't that meaningless, because someone who reports on an '05 car in '06 for example, may have a completely different impression by the time '09 comes around??
inquiring minds want to know.
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 14,100
Likes: 1
From: tech capital
And I've measured up the CR report reliability data against several cars that I've actually owned including those made by Honda, Acura, Toyota, Lexus, Porsche, Jag, Ford, GM, and Chrysler.
That's how I know happen to know personally.
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 94,223
Likes: 221
From: Virginia/D.C. suburbs
Correct.
CR will not publish any reliability data for only two responses. If it below a certain threshold (I don't know the exact number or percentage), they simply mark that vehicle's reliability for that year with an asterisk (*) or the words "Insufficient Data". CR does not publish data it can't verify.
That's why you see little, if any, data for some slow-selling vehicles like some Suzukis, Porsches, ultra-luxury makes like Rolls, Maybach, or exotics. They just don't sell in high enough numbers to generate the required CR threshold. It is also why some vehicles will have reliability data for some years, and a row of asterisk for others.
and that maybe what they send out, not what they get back. and the surveys i believe go to CR subscribers only, who are NOT a random sampling of the public - CR subscribers have their own profile (not saying good or bad, it is what it is). but even putting that aside, the response rates to less popular vehicles are going to be MINUSCULE, yes, less responses than you'll find on an internet forum for that vehicle. so if i'm looking for a porsche 911 turbo, do i base on ratings based on 2 responses to CR, or do i go trawl the internet in seconds?
so if i'm looking for a porsche 911 turbo, do i base on ratings based on 2 responses to CR, or do i go trawl the internet in seconds?
That's why you see little, if any, data for some slow-selling vehicles like some Suzukis, Porsches, ultra-luxury makes like Rolls, Maybach, or exotics. They just don't sell in high enough numbers to generate the required CR threshold. It is also why some vehicles will have reliability data for some years, and a row of asterisk for others.
A comment on consumer reports surveys...
This and much much more on the flaws at:
http://www.allpar.com/cr.html
A high response rate is the key to validity. Employee survey findings can be questioned when fewer than half of the employees respond. So how many people respond to a Consumer Reports survey? "Of over 4 million questionnaires sent this year, the magazine received responses regarding about 480,000 vehicles," according to Detroit News. If most people reported on two cars (because most families have two or more cars), that would put the response rate at a mere 6%. Even assuming one car per family - a highly dubious assumption - we have a taudry 12% response rate.
...
People who are inclined to buy different brands may define "serious" differently (see above). If you've never received a survey, ask a friend who subscribes to see theirs before they return it (if they return it). You will notice that Consumers' Reports really doesn't say what a "serious" problem is. I believe should define it or say "any" problem.
This was evident in reactions to the problem of sludge in the engines of many Toyotas - a problem which Toyota, to its credit, eventually admitted and acted on. The Corolland forums were full of people claiming the problem was not real but simply in the minds of those who claimed they had it; and if was real, it was the fault of owners and not Toyota. We doubt they'd feel the same way if, say, Neons were victims of sludge.
...
People who are inclined to buy different brands may define "serious" differently (see above). If you've never received a survey, ask a friend who subscribes to see theirs before they return it (if they return it). You will notice that Consumers' Reports really doesn't say what a "serious" problem is. I believe should define it or say "any" problem.
This was evident in reactions to the problem of sludge in the engines of many Toyotas - a problem which Toyota, to its credit, eventually admitted and acted on. The Corolland forums were full of people claiming the problem was not real but simply in the minds of those who claimed they had it; and if was real, it was the fault of owners and not Toyota. We doubt they'd feel the same way if, say, Neons were victims of sludge.
This and much much more on the flaws at:
http://www.allpar.com/cr.html
another good article showing the MAJOR flaws in CR's reports:
http://www.truedelta.com/pieces/shortcomings.php
(yes a competitor, but at least one based on real stats, not a subjective illogical methodology)
http://www.truedelta.com/pieces/shortcomings.php
(yes a competitor, but at least one based on real stats, not a subjective illogical methodology)
