My point with the S600 is that it is a low volume model all over the globe. How many S600s does MB sell in the US anyway? 1,500 perhaps? That's not much when you look at all S class sales in the US. Perhaps my estimated figure of 1,500 is even lower. Maybe MB only sells 500 S600s in the US per year. I don't know. What I do know is that Toyota sells a lot of gas-guzzling SUVs in the US and my point, without using facts, was that these cars are equally involved in polluting. Let's be honest here, nobody buying an S600 or a Toyota Landcruiser V8 gives a damn about the environment. If they did, they would buy something more efficient or take public transportation for that matter.

By the way, I recall seeing a figure chart in an Autobild magazine a long time ago about the current S class. Over 50% of S classes sold in Europe are the efficient S320 CDI models. That I clearly remember. What I also clearly remember is that the S600, S63 and S65 AMG make up less than 2% of all S classes sold in Europe. Again, these are low volume production models when you look at the big picture.



And how can Lexus hybrids be marketed as performance cars when they're extremely overweight and as a result suffer a handling penalty? This means that they're only going to perform well in a straight-line. And you know what? The typical Lexus customer does not strike me as someone who likes to madly accelerate in a straight-line. Back home, most of my family friends who own Lexus cars are the "dignified and polite" types. I suspect they drive their Lexus the way the act - in a dignified, elegant and relaxed manor. Hardly the crowd that would enjoy mashing the pedal of a "performance hybrid".

The whole way Lexus markets their hybrids doesn't make sense to me at all. First there's the talk about great gas mileage. Then when that didn't work out, all of a sudden they're performance cars? Huh? What? I'm sorry, but I just don't get it. If Lexus wanted to introduce fuel-efficient vehicles, then they need to simply offer smaller engines and perhaps diesels.

 

As far as I am aware, no MB in Europe competes directly with the Toyota Yaris. Consumers shopping for a Toyota Yaris will not consider an MB A or B class or a BMW 1 series and vice versa.



I am an American (working in Germany). Explain to me how a V8 is "proper" for a luxury car? Europeans can live with 4-cylinders or smaller 6-cylinder motors in their luxury cars, so can the rest of the world. Even in Japan, one of the most image-conscious markets in the world, 4- and 6-cylinder luxury cars from Europe do extremely well. European luxury cars with 4-cylinder engines are still appealing and desired luxury cars throughout the world. They have the brand heritage and resulting prestige and offering a 4-cylinder won't change that. Keep in mind that outside of the US people tend to consider what and how much they need. A BMW 520i is more appealing than a 535i for someone living in Tokyo for example.


Are you serious? Why should we blame the German companies for something that they cannot control? They tried selling their lower-engined models in this country many years ago and it didn't work. The American market wasn't ready or didn't understand the point of a smaller, more efficient motor powering a luxury car. Gas was still cheap and nobody foresaw the need for more efficient motors.

The blame should lie with the American public for being, oh, I don't know, NARROW MINDED in some cases. Our car magazines have a habit of emphasizing performance above all else, especially in luxury cars. The way it is over-emphasized is almost unhealthy. People, without seemingly thinking too much, seem to expect that luxury cars are powered by large and powerful engines. These days, a smaller, efficient engine can offer you a high degree of fun and performance and good gas mileage. Do you agree with this?

Then again, wastefulness is part of our, yes our, the American culture, sadly.

 

Valid points and a well-written post.

I like the new twist you added to the argument about hybrids and V12's being "gimmicks". Makes complete sense as nobody needs them. Both companies just tell us that we do.

 

Honestly, what does this prove? Absolutely nothing. Seeing so and so many models of one brand on the street is the worst means of measuring the durability of a car. There are so many factors that can influence this. Maybe more people in your area bought LS400s and less people bought W126 S classes?

Another major factor is that a used W126 S class in the US can be had for very little money. People know that they're durable and well-made and thus often buy them as beater or project cars. And a beater car will obviously not be very well taken care off. So when you see an old W126 S class on the street which looks like it has been through hell, don't assume that it's because of a quality issue. More likely it's the owner. An LS400 going through the same ordeal will fare no better. Even the best-built cars eventually succumb to poor treatment.

Here in Stuttgart, I see plenty of gasoline W126 S classes (diesels were not sold in Europe) that are in great shape and look like they just left the factory. The W126 is a car known for its durability. We had an early 1980s 300SD Turbodiesel in our family. If it had not been stolen, my parents would probably still be driving it today or at least keep it as a second car.

 

Good questions

 

Good points Dustin, thanks for sharing.

 

I think you're mistaken about a little aspect of Lexus hybrids in Europe. To my knowledge they sell well in the UK, not mainland Europe. Most Lexus in the UK will be found in London, a place where people have purchasing power and where there used to be an incentive to buy hybrids: the congestion charge. Now, hybrids are not exempt from this charge anymore. And in Europe like in the US, there will be people who'll buy a hybrid because the marketing worked on them. They feel they are doing their part in being clean and green or they like the allure which a supposedly advanced vehicle gives them in terms of perceived status.





Hybrids can only get better from this point on, I agree. But at the moment they're heavy and in my opinion ill suited to being classified as "performance cars" or anything with the "performance" moniker in it. Correct me if I am wrong but don't Lexus hybrids switch from electric- to gasoline-powered above 30 mph? Because most passing takes place on the highway, I would assume, and that means the electric engine is not powering the car. No instant torque surges I would expect.

And for the record, my former 136-hp Mercedes C200 CDI (base model in Europe) had excellent passing power on the autobahn at speeds that would cost you your license back in the US.

 

To be fair, if Lexus were to offer a small car it would most likely be based on a lower-end Toyota platform due to lower costs. Now personally I don't care about this because it really means nothing. Platform sharing is so frowned upon for no reason other than blind hate or simple stupidity. A platform can easily be modified at cost effective prices, too.

The only people who would seriously make these Toyota-Lexus comparisons are Lexus-haters. And I suppose in their insane state-of-mind they do have a slight point. The best-selling Lexus cars in the US are the Lexus RX and Lexus ES. The RX is a rebadged Toyota Harrier while the ES is based on the Camry platform I believe. This gives the haters fuel to add to the fire, especially the older Lexus, which, pardon my word usage here, were shamelessly rebadged Toyotas from Japan.

Don't misunderstand me. Toyota and Lexus are good companies but for Lexus to be taken more seriously globally they need to really distance themselves from Toyota. In todays world information like this spreads like the speed of light thanks to electronic communication (internet etc.). There are many sensitive people out there, I imagine, that can't live with a Lexus because there's too close a relationship to Toyota cars. The new Landcruiser for example shares the same seat configuration buttons as the LS460/LS600h. I personally am not offended by this, but some folks are.


No offense, but the bulk of Lexus sales are in the US and most of these are generated by the RX and ES. When you look at the figures BMW or Mercedes reach in terms of global sales, the 4th place Lexus occupies doesn't look that glitzy. Audi is the rising star from Germany and their global sales are increasing at a rapid pace. I believe BMW and Mercedes sell over a million or 1.5 million cars globally while Lexus total sales are something around 200,000-400,000. Correct me if I am wrong.

I like Lexus a lot, but I like to be objective too. Lexus is a young brand and in my honest opinion they can learn many things from their rivals, just like their rivals learned many things from them.



Automotive nationalism is a major factor in Europe, true, but how do you explain the impressive sales of expensive European luxury cars in Japan compared to Lexus? The only Lexus which really sells well in Japan is the LS, I believe. The rest are hardly a blip on the radar screen. I think Lexus made the mistake of offering certain products in the Japanese market which the Japanese cannot relate to. For example, why would someone buy an RX when you can get a Toyota Harrier for less money and most likely the same features? If we're honest, this is something of a major blooper on Lexus behalf.



It's always a question of how much an individual needs and desires. A young college student might prefer the sportier and sportier sounding nature of a BMW 320i than the old-man image a V6 Lexus ES offers. A BMW 320i might loose out to an older V6 ES in a race, but when the corners start appearing the BMW can use its handling advantage to gain on the Lexus and eventually perhaps overtake it. 4-cylinder engines have their charms too, especially from BMW. It's always a question of the individual. You cannot assume that everyone will automatically take the more refined ES with a V6 over a 4-cylinder 320i. Engines don't necessarily sell cars. It's the whole package. The 4-cyl. 320i appeals to a certain crowd, the ES V6 to another.



Wrong, I'm afraid. Only the most familiar European magazines put performance above everything else, namely EVO (a very sports-biased car magazine), Fifth Gear and from Germany, Motorvision. Other magazines will test performance cars in a sporty fashion and review them accordingly, but the vast majority of German and British publications I've been exposed to review cars as how a normal person on the street would review them. What's the interior space like? Is the trunk big enough? Insurance and maintenance costs, what are they like? Magazines like Autozeitung, Autobild, L'Equipe and various British publications are aimed at the "common man" (the person who doesn't really value performance much) and inform him or her about the cars they're interested in and about the thing that matter. Performance is important to Europeans, but we're talking about normal performance. 0-60 times of under 10 seconds are completely acceptable here (and these cars have very good midrange acceleration ratings) whereas back home people would be calling them slow or underpowered etc.







I hope we're not at war here.

 

So what is the title of this thread? I seem to have forgot?

 

Lexus vs Mercedes
LS vs S class
Japan vs Germany
Lexus fans vs Lexus fans who like other brands too

 

Yes you are, Lexus sold > 400,000 world wide for a couple years already & is steadily increasing since(don't have latest #'s).
Plus keep in mind that there are many luxury Toyota models outside N.American that are as luxurious or more luxurious than the Lexus IS and GS that does not count as Lexus sales just because of branding. Many Toyota brand sedans like the Crown & SUV's and minivan are being sold at luxury car price range in many parts of the world & those do not contribute to Lexus sales. Even in the U.S., some SUV's & vans sold under the Toyota brand are higher priced than some of the "luxury brand" models.

OTOH, Mecedes, BMW and Audi are selling many cars worldwide that would have fallen below the "luxury brand" price range(~below US$30K) here had they been selling those exact low-sec. cars in N.America (A, B-class, low-spec 1 & 3 series, etc.)That's why comparing Lexus world wide sales with those of the European brands is not an apples to apples comparison.

 

I find the Toyota cars that are sold in the US and in Europe to be rather boring, to be honest. I love, however, some of the cars that they sell in Japan which I am only able to see on google, Wikipedia or on the Japanese Toyota website. The Crown Majesta is a favorite of mine for example. Obviously, it would be too glitzy for the US and a total flop in Europe, but it is a nice car nonetheless. And of course the Century.



Interesting point.

However, cars like the 1 series, A3 or A/B classes are considered premium in Europe and globally. They're not cheap to begin with and they come better-equipped than comparable cars in the mainstream class below them. My girlfriends parents for instance drive a Mercedes B class. I am not sure which model it is but it is a gasoline model. I've ridden in it a couple of times and it actually spacious and very comfortable and the motor sounds very smooth and refined. In a way, these are expectations that luxury buyers have and the B class fulfills them. I suspect the A3 and 1 series do the same.

And again, the bulk of Lexus sales are still in the US whereas the European marques are spread out more evenly across the globe. Brings another "Can Lexus really be compared to these brands?" argument to the table because they're essentially still relying on one major market for the bulk of their sales.

 

This is correct. The Lexus Hybrid does not remotely offer acceleration comparable to an S600... Lexus might try to argue that it is comparable to the older V12 7-series (which is being dropped) or the W12 A8, but it is simply not in the same league as the S600. (That it was explicitly designed to compete with - even down to the 600 nomenclature)

To claim "hybrid performance" credentials only makes sense within the context of what the car is competing against... (A contemporary V6 Camry would be a performance car 20 years ago!) The LS600h has no performance advantages over a cheaper S550... and few over the cheaper LS460... its economy advantages are small and overstated... so what are you getting for all the extra money then? AWD? Otherwise you can get most of the comforts in a fully packaged LS460...

I am not hating on the LS600h. It is a very luxurious car and I liked it when comparing it to the S600. To state though that it is comparable to its V!2 competitors in performance or substantive fuel efficiency is a misrepresentation. If Lexus had toned down their "comparable to a V12" marketing and called it the LS500h they would have been more honest. The hybrid technology is distinctive enough to stand on its own merits.

Chris

 

It's very easy for Toyota to solve this "problem", if they "really want to".
Toyota is currently selling approx.~9 million cars world wide, which is much greater than any of the other "luxury brands"(not more than about 1.5 million or below).

If they really want to play this number game, all Toyota has to do is to take a look at their non-Lexus Toyota models, take all the most expensive models whose combined sales exceed 2 million worldwide, & then rebrand all of them as Lexus.
Then Lexus would be the #1 selling luxury brand in the world & much more widely distributed all over the world. I doubt they will care about doing that though. They will just be taking sales from Toyota & giving them to Lexus. But the Toyota brand will still have millions of world wide sales left even after this switch, mostly consisting of their lower end models.

 

the S class is much more aggressive in design, I think it kills the LS460 in design.

Id still take the ls460, take the 10K I saved and use it for some 21" and a nice drop and call it a day. Lexus is just more reliable.

I don't know about current 07 to present benz models but the ones up to 06 have very poor quality materials and construction. My relative has a 05 e class and I tell ya, my 01 ls430 is built much better with better materials.

benz has great design team and great 3 pointed star, other than that I wouldn't touch one out of factory warranty.