Toyota Tundra hit with 2 more quality problems
10-22-07, 11:16 AM
#16
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Clearly, this is a DESIGN FLAW, not a first-year production issue.
I remember before the Tundra came out how Toyota put out those press-releases about how they are taking their time with the Tundra to make sure that production is of the utmost highest quality. I guess this is the result. Imagine if they didn't take their time...
I remember before the Tundra came out how Toyota put out those press-releases about how they are taking their time with the Tundra to make sure that production is of the utmost highest quality. I guess this is the result. Imagine if they didn't take their time...
10-22-07, 12:03 PM
#19
Pole Position
Your apparent BMW bias shows through and through, regardless if you are a Toyco/Lexus owner. Anyhow, it was to address your insanely ironic comment :"I am quite aware. Other manufactures acknowledge problems immediately as well. "
To date, my friend w/ a BMW 335i has not received ANY notice for the oil cooler, even when he has taken his car back to the dealership. It is a hush - hush affair, whereas Lexus / Toyco will immediately acknowledge the issue, less send a recall / notice to the owners (witness the hysterical floor mat recall).
10-22-07, 12:04 PM
#20
Lexus Fanatic
I don't have any long-term ownership or experience with this truck, but I did give it a through review and got as familiar with it as I could in the time I had it.
When I did the review (a V8 I-Force AWD Limited), I said at the time that I thought the body sheet metal was too thin (especially for a pickup), and both the interior and exterior trim and hardware too cheap and flimsy. So the problems with the tailgate bending and buckling under load do not surprise me....I more or less expected that.
The automatic transmission....that is another matter. The one in the sample I drove, like on most Toyota products, was seamless.....silky shifts and smooth, quiet operation. In fact, I commented on the apparant high quality and good engineering of both the drivetrain and the chassis. That, however, was on a brand-new truck....sometimes there are hidden defects in design or production that don't show up for a few thousand miles....that was the case with the transmission in my Lexus IS300 as well. So it is possible that these transmissons are prefect at delivery time and simply have defects or failures early on.....that is the case with some of the V6 Camrys as well.
When I did the review (a V8 I-Force AWD Limited), I said at the time that I thought the body sheet metal was too thin (especially for a pickup), and both the interior and exterior trim and hardware too cheap and flimsy. So the problems with the tailgate bending and buckling under load do not surprise me....I more or less expected that.
The automatic transmission....that is another matter. The one in the sample I drove, like on most Toyota products, was seamless.....silky shifts and smooth, quiet operation. In fact, I commented on the apparant high quality and good engineering of both the drivetrain and the chassis. That, however, was on a brand-new truck....sometimes there are hidden defects in design or production that don't show up for a few thousand miles....that was the case with the transmission in my Lexus IS300 as well. So it is possible that these transmissons are prefect at delivery time and simply have defects or failures early on.....that is the case with some of the V6 Camrys as well.
10-22-07, 12:24 PM
#21
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People, Toyota Engineers are NOT god! They make mistakes too.
Although, I doubt that it's always a design issue. Most of the time it will be suppliers not meeting design standards during production of the parts. That being said, Toyota/Lexus probably has a better record of quality products than most other manufacturers. However, we've been seeing a trend in recalls lately (some minor stuff). Just remember, Toyota is not god and recalls are bound to happen! It's just how you compare it to other manufacturers is what matters.
Although, I doubt that it's always a design issue. Most of the time it will be suppliers not meeting design standards during production of the parts. That being said, Toyota/Lexus probably has a better record of quality products than most other manufacturers. However, we've been seeing a trend in recalls lately (some minor stuff). Just remember, Toyota is not god and recalls are bound to happen! It's just how you compare it to other manufacturers is what matters.
10-22-07, 12:35 PM
#22
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To all the Toyota apologists who think this is simple growing pains, I say that that seems an oversimplification of the issues facing Toyota at the moment.
What is showing up is a symptom of what could be a procedural issue within Toyota. In other words there was a time when these kind of issues would never have hit the street in the first place. Toyota trouble shot this kind of stuff in the design and manufacturing development of its product so that recalls and quality glitches like these never made it to manufacturing. It shows that Toyota is now letting these things slip through its net and that is what is giving its reputation the black eye.
I had an interesting conversation with a sushi chef at a local Japanese restaurant that I frequent. So I can hear the chuckles now, what does your sushi chef know? Well, we were talking about Japanese business in general and he brought up Toyota and said that he had just served a contingent of executives from Toyota and they were decrying the challenges facing the company. One of the things they said was that because of its expanding global reach the company was hiring people who had little grasp or appreciation of Toyota's business culture or the traditional Japanese work ethic. As a result many of the founding principles of the company were being lost over time. Interestingly enough these very executives admitted that, at the moment, Subaru had the most consistent quality control of any Japanese car maker. Take that for what you will but, it's interesting nonetheless.
Now, it may be said that other companies still don't rate as highly and have numerous issues but that is just smoke screening the issue at hand. Something is changing at Toyota and one has to wonder if this is just a momentary stumble or a trend which may continue.
What is showing up is a symptom of what could be a procedural issue within Toyota. In other words there was a time when these kind of issues would never have hit the street in the first place. Toyota trouble shot this kind of stuff in the design and manufacturing development of its product so that recalls and quality glitches like these never made it to manufacturing. It shows that Toyota is now letting these things slip through its net and that is what is giving its reputation the black eye.
I had an interesting conversation with a sushi chef at a local Japanese restaurant that I frequent. So I can hear the chuckles now, what does your sushi chef know? Well, we were talking about Japanese business in general and he brought up Toyota and said that he had just served a contingent of executives from Toyota and they were decrying the challenges facing the company. One of the things they said was that because of its expanding global reach the company was hiring people who had little grasp or appreciation of Toyota's business culture or the traditional Japanese work ethic. As a result many of the founding principles of the company were being lost over time. Interestingly enough these very executives admitted that, at the moment, Subaru had the most consistent quality control of any Japanese car maker. Take that for what you will but, it's interesting nonetheless.
Now, it may be said that other companies still don't rate as highly and have numerous issues but that is just smoke screening the issue at hand. Something is changing at Toyota and one has to wonder if this is just a momentary stumble or a trend which may continue.
10-22-07, 12:36 PM
#23
Lexus Fanatic
Well, not to sound sacriligeous here, but for a long time, they weren't far from God. Even the rare quality goofs, like the pickup bed-rust problems of the 1980's, were defects in the welding process used here, not in the Toyota plants or design....the truck chassis, drivetrains, and cabs were shipped to the West Coast from Japan and the beds were welded on.....with bad welds that allowed premature rust. (this was done to get around the import-truck quotas and tarriffs of the period, as they applied only to complete trucks imported, not major sections).
10-22-07, 01:25 PM
#24
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Bmw
BMW had the M3 in 2001 that had the motor just blow........ANYONE (I'll refrain from saying any names) remember that???????????
10-22-07, 03:03 PM
#25
This thread could potentially get shut down if some people aren't careful.
There are really two sides to this issue, IMO. The Toyota critics who are standing with baited breath waiting for these types of issues to come up so that they can advertise them, almost in a tirade of retaliation for other companies who have been slighted in Toyota's upward growth. And those who are trying to brush it under the rug to save Toyota's image.
Quite honestly, this is a Lexus forum, I come from a Toyota family and background, and I do really enjoy Toyota products. That said, I don't have a problem admitting when my favorite company does wrong. The first step was the new Camry. For all of it's advancements, the redesigned vehicle did suffer in two key areas. Interior quality (shinier, lower grade, more brittle plastics) and powertrains. The 5AT required a software flash to correct lagging issues and the 6AT, as we know, was dropping gears and required replacement. Back stepping in quality is not really acceptable, especially for a company like Toyota that has built its reputation upon it.
For some reason, transmissions have been an issue for Toyota lately. The aforementioned problems with the Camry, the LS 430 had that brief transmission recall, lag on the 3.3L/5AT, ES 350s suffering the same problems as Camrys, LS 460s hesitating, and now Tundras. I am actually glad to see that they released the Highlander with the 5AT which has been proven, and not the 6AT. Thankfully the 6AT in the GS and IS has been relatively problem free, but this company really does need to work out the quality control with transmissions.
Its quite obvious to me that the team in charge of the Tundra focused primarily on the engine and chassis, which quite honestly are probably the most important things to truck buyers. What is surprising though, to me, is the complete lack of regard and really pride on the interior. It's like the interior was the last thing they did and decided that costs were getting too high and they had to cut down. The interior is not what I would expect from any Toyota product. These issues with tail gates and transmissions are very concerning, but like other in this thread have mentioned, it is reassuring to see that the company has acknowledged its shortcomings. A large part of Toyota's history of success has been public relations; it's one of the things that they do best. While it could be argued that there has been a degree of arrogance or oversight in the manufacturing process, there has been no shortage of responsiveness from the public relations arm of Toyota. Their commitment to service is what is most important, IMO.
It was predicted and has happened, but IMO, many of these quality problems that the company is facing are a result of such rapid growth with limited resources- both human and physical. Their product line has grown seemingly exponentially and they only have so many designers, engineers, and development teams and also only so many suppliers with so many resources. Not that any of this is necessarily an excuse but the Japanese business philosophy has traditionally been a lean one, maximizing profit and minimizing costs at all costs. Clearly this is the basic economic model but Toyota has indeed spread itself too thin, and consequently we learn from our mistakes. The company has come forward and said that they are lengthening each model's development cycle with more members in the team to assure that the quality returns to their products. Again, it's the attitude and commitment to the customer and product, even in the face of mistakes, that has defined this company.
Let's also not forget that selling articles, subscriptions, and issues is after all a business. Quite honestly it's not much different than the current Britney Spears or Lindsay Lohan tabloid war. Toyota has ingrained itself into American culture and families so headlines such as "Toyota quality slipping" and "A dent in Toyota quality" are things that are going to shake us and inspire a purchase because it's always fun to watch the star fall. It has been proven time and time again. Toyota has been a darling of the automotive world for a long time and is certainly recently suffering some growing pains, but the twisting and turning of information and headlines is really quite humorous. I have not lost any faith in the company, and if anything I am very excited to see what the future brings. When a culture as conservative and honest as the Japanese finds itself amidst a phase that could compromise it's values and long time promise...the outcome, as has been proven in the past, is fantastic. Remember Lexus first recall with the LS 400.
All in all, I'm sick of reading that the world is over and that Toyota cars are falling apart on the very roads that they drive on. None of us should forget that these articles are written with people who have agendas and quotas to meet, or opinions to sway.
You've got to look at everything for yourself. Toyota has, again, suffered a few growing pains but I have faith in the company, what it stands for, and it's tradition. For that reason I will continue to believe in the company and likely purchase their products. If this quality slide continues into it's new products and we find that the recent promises end up empty, then there is reason to worry. Their reaction to these issues is more telling than the issues themselves, IMO.
There are really two sides to this issue, IMO. The Toyota critics who are standing with baited breath waiting for these types of issues to come up so that they can advertise them, almost in a tirade of retaliation for other companies who have been slighted in Toyota's upward growth. And those who are trying to brush it under the rug to save Toyota's image.
Quite honestly, this is a Lexus forum, I come from a Toyota family and background, and I do really enjoy Toyota products. That said, I don't have a problem admitting when my favorite company does wrong. The first step was the new Camry. For all of it's advancements, the redesigned vehicle did suffer in two key areas. Interior quality (shinier, lower grade, more brittle plastics) and powertrains. The 5AT required a software flash to correct lagging issues and the 6AT, as we know, was dropping gears and required replacement. Back stepping in quality is not really acceptable, especially for a company like Toyota that has built its reputation upon it.
For some reason, transmissions have been an issue for Toyota lately. The aforementioned problems with the Camry, the LS 430 had that brief transmission recall, lag on the 3.3L/5AT, ES 350s suffering the same problems as Camrys, LS 460s hesitating, and now Tundras. I am actually glad to see that they released the Highlander with the 5AT which has been proven, and not the 6AT. Thankfully the 6AT in the GS and IS has been relatively problem free, but this company really does need to work out the quality control with transmissions.
Its quite obvious to me that the team in charge of the Tundra focused primarily on the engine and chassis, which quite honestly are probably the most important things to truck buyers. What is surprising though, to me, is the complete lack of regard and really pride on the interior. It's like the interior was the last thing they did and decided that costs were getting too high and they had to cut down. The interior is not what I would expect from any Toyota product. These issues with tail gates and transmissions are very concerning, but like other in this thread have mentioned, it is reassuring to see that the company has acknowledged its shortcomings. A large part of Toyota's history of success has been public relations; it's one of the things that they do best. While it could be argued that there has been a degree of arrogance or oversight in the manufacturing process, there has been no shortage of responsiveness from the public relations arm of Toyota. Their commitment to service is what is most important, IMO.
It was predicted and has happened, but IMO, many of these quality problems that the company is facing are a result of such rapid growth with limited resources- both human and physical. Their product line has grown seemingly exponentially and they only have so many designers, engineers, and development teams and also only so many suppliers with so many resources. Not that any of this is necessarily an excuse but the Japanese business philosophy has traditionally been a lean one, maximizing profit and minimizing costs at all costs. Clearly this is the basic economic model but Toyota has indeed spread itself too thin, and consequently we learn from our mistakes. The company has come forward and said that they are lengthening each model's development cycle with more members in the team to assure that the quality returns to their products. Again, it's the attitude and commitment to the customer and product, even in the face of mistakes, that has defined this company.
Let's also not forget that selling articles, subscriptions, and issues is after all a business. Quite honestly it's not much different than the current Britney Spears or Lindsay Lohan tabloid war. Toyota has ingrained itself into American culture and families so headlines such as "Toyota quality slipping" and "A dent in Toyota quality" are things that are going to shake us and inspire a purchase because it's always fun to watch the star fall. It has been proven time and time again. Toyota has been a darling of the automotive world for a long time and is certainly recently suffering some growing pains, but the twisting and turning of information and headlines is really quite humorous. I have not lost any faith in the company, and if anything I am very excited to see what the future brings. When a culture as conservative and honest as the Japanese finds itself amidst a phase that could compromise it's values and long time promise...the outcome, as has been proven in the past, is fantastic. Remember Lexus first recall with the LS 400.
All in all, I'm sick of reading that the world is over and that Toyota cars are falling apart on the very roads that they drive on. None of us should forget that these articles are written with people who have agendas and quotas to meet, or opinions to sway.
You've got to look at everything for yourself. Toyota has, again, suffered a few growing pains but I have faith in the company, what it stands for, and it's tradition. For that reason I will continue to believe in the company and likely purchase their products. If this quality slide continues into it's new products and we find that the recent promises end up empty, then there is reason to worry. Their reaction to these issues is more telling than the issues themselves, IMO.
Last edited by MPLexus301; 10-22-07 at 03:06 PM.
10-22-07, 03:28 PM
#26
Lexus Fanatic
Not from my posts, it won't. I'm trying to discuss these issues fairly, objectively, and impartially. The sheet metal and hardware problems really are no surprise. The transmission problems are another matter....that is not something you can always gauge on a brand-new vehicle.
10-22-07, 03:33 PM
#27
I think we all remember that. It was a big deal and BMW fixed the problem and all BMW M3s affected were fixed provided the owner actually took the car in to get it the problem corrected. What exactly was your point? If it was to show how a cars can have hidden defects in them that don't show up right away I see your point. it also shows how once the manufacturer discovers the defect, how they recalled and took care of the problem.
10-22-07, 03:40 PM
#28
Lexus Fanatic
I think we all remember that. It was a big deal and BMW fixed the problem and all BMW M3s affected were fixed provided the owner actually took the car in to get it the problem corrected. What exactly was your point? If it was to show how a cars can have hidden defects in them that don't show up right away I see your point. it also shows how once the manufacturer discovers the defect, how they recalled and took care of the problem.
10-22-07, 04:20 PM
#29
Pole Position
I think we all remember that. It was a big deal and BMW fixed the problem and all BMW M3s affected were fixed provided the owner actually took the car in to get it the problem corrected. What exactly was your point? If it was to show how a cars can have hidden defects in them that don't show up right away I see your point. it also shows how once the manufacturer discovers the defect, how they recalled and took care of the problem.
TSB / NHTSA number please....
10-22-07, 04:28 PM
#30
Lexus Test Driver
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Are there any other auto makers than Lexus and BMW?
ST430 - have him ask at the dealership, if no luck call BMWNA, they will get him a retrofit kit.
ST430 - have him ask at the dealership, if no luck call BMWNA, they will get him a retrofit kit.
