May-2007 Car Sales
Lexus Champion
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From: CA
The latest list of hottest selling vehicles (those that spent the fewest number of days in showrooms), which is compiled by J.D. Power's Power Information Network
EV ftw!!!
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From: Lake Ontario
The latest list of hottest selling vehicles (those that spent the fewest number of days in showrooms), which is compiled by J.D. Power's Power Information Network every month includes three vehicles that were red hot in May--for three completely different reasons. And each one is an important model for their company. So let me run down the list and touch on the three models I believe are most important on this list.
Lexus Fanatic
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From: Massachusetts
I don't know why they call the quickest off the lot the "hottest".
Notice the LS and tt high on the list for example - these cars sell at very low volumes compared to top sellers but of course are made at low volume out of the factory as well.
So all a car company has to do to make their car the hottest is to not make enough of them.
The Camry is actually the "hottest" car in the world but because Toyota builds a zillion of these they don't make the list. Just think if Toyota cut production in half people would be fighting over them and paying more than retail for them.
Notice the LS and tt high on the list for example - these cars sell at very low volumes compared to top sellers but of course are made at low volume out of the factory as well.
So all a car company has to do to make their car the hottest is to not make enough of them.
The Camry is actually the "hottest" car in the world but because Toyota builds a zillion of these they don't make the list. Just think if Toyota cut production in half people would be fighting over them and paying more than retail for them.
CL Community Team
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 30,281
Likes: 361
From: Canada
It means demand outstrip anticipated demand/supply I think. I don't think any manufacturer will be stupid enough to cut the supply of a popular car drastically just so that it can be "hot".
But some, like lexus, may try not to over produce certain models just to keep the car more desirable & the resale value up. Some may just be restrained by production capacity, like the Prius once was . . .
But some, like lexus, may try not to over produce certain models just to keep the car more desirable & the resale value up. Some may just be restrained by production capacity, like the Prius once was . . .
I don't know why they call the quickest off the lot the "hottest".
Notice the LS and tt high on the list for example - these cars sell at very low volumes compared to top sellers but of course are made at low volume out of the factory as well.
So all a car company has to do to make their car the hottest is to not make enough of them.
The Camry is actually the "hottest" car in the world but because Toyota builds a zillion of these they don't make the list. Just think if Toyota cut production in half people would be fighting over them and paying more than retail for them.
Notice the LS and tt high on the list for example - these cars sell at very low volumes compared to top sellers but of course are made at low volume out of the factory as well.
So all a car company has to do to make their car the hottest is to not make enough of them.
The Camry is actually the "hottest" car in the world but because Toyota builds a zillion of these they don't make the list. Just think if Toyota cut production in half people would be fighting over them and paying more than retail for them.
CL Community Team
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 30,281
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From: Canada
For the first time, Toyota is top U.S. brand
Saturday, June 16, 2007
For first time, Toyota is top U.S. brand
Carmaker passes Chevy, Ford on strength of growing retail auto sales.
Bryce G. Hoffman / The Detroit News
While Ford and Chevrolet continue their perennial fight for dominance in the U.S. car and truck market, Toyota has slipped in under the radar to claim the top spot as the best-selling automotive brand in America.
The Japanese automaker is just too modest to mention it.
Through May, Toyota Motor Corp. led all brands with U.S. unit sales of 954,000 vehicles, a razor-thin 5,200 units ahead of General Motors Corp.'s Chevy brand and 40,000 better than the Ford Motor Co.'s Ford brand.
The Toyota brand's lead is far wider when it comes to all-important retail sales, which exclude low-margin sales to car rental companies and other fleets. In April, Toyota's namesake brand claimed 15.8 percent of the U.S. retail vehicle market, compared to 11.9 percent for Chevy and 11.1 percent for Ford, according to an analysis of national sales transaction data prepared for The Detroit News by R.L. Polk & Co.
The Toyota figures include its youth-oriented Scion models because they are sold through the same dealer network, but exclude its luxury Lexus brand.
Toyota spokesman Irv Miller said the company is aware of its position in the market but believes there is little value in leveraging it for promotional purposes because most Toyota buyers are more interested in attributes such as quality and fuel economy. In the same vein, Toyota has downplayed the fact that it passed GM in worldwide sales volumes in the first quarter of this year.
"We're not crowing about it because it's not in our nature to crow," Miller said. "Who really cares? To those people who have Toyota on their consideration list, it isn't going to matter. And to those people who aren't considering Toyota, it doesn't matter either."
But it matters to Ford and Chevrolet. The battle for the title of America's best-selling brand has long been waged between Ford and Chevy and each makes much of the bragging rights that come with it.
When Chevy launched an advertising campaign claiming it was the No. 1 brand in 2005 based on unit sales, Ford shot back by releasing vehicle registration figures that showed the crown still belonged to the blue oval. Ford did not dispute the sales numbers, but said registration data should be the "industry standard."
Toyota took the lead in retail sales without fanfare at the end of last year and has continued to beat Ford and Chevy since.
"They'll surpass Ford this year, and they have a really good shot at surpassing Chevrolet," said analyst Erich Merkle of IRN Inc. in Grand Rapids, who expects Toyota to remain on top. "It's going to be really difficult for the Big Three to gain that momentum back."
Toyota has been steadily chiseling away for years at Ford and Chevy's market share. Its advance gained momentum with the launch of the Scion line in 2002.
Scion's styling and low sticker price are designed to appeal to younger, first-time new car buyers.
Toyota also has expanded into new areas, including full-size pickups, a segment traditionally owned by Detroit brands.
Ford and GM contend that Scion is really a separate brand and should not be included in Toyota's tally -- exclude it and Toyota drops back behind its U.S. rivals -- and they downplayed the significance of being No. 1.
"Moral victories like Fusion beating Camry in Consumer Reports, F-Series remaining the most capable, best-selling truck and Edge beating Highlander to become the No. 1 crossover mean the most to us," said Ford spokesman Jim Cain. "As we keep chalking up more victories like that, sales and share will follow."
Cain said Ford is in the midst of a massive restructuring and hopes to find profitability as a smaller, leaner automaker.
GM spokesman Terry Rhadigan said Chevy is more focused on growing its retail market share than its place in the rankings.
"We drew a line in the sand and said we were going to increase retail market share -- and we have done that," he said. "On the total sales front, we're scratching and clawing for every one -- retail and fleet -- to regain our position as America's No. 1 brand."
IRN's Merkle said Toyota has its own reasons for staying mum beyond simple modesty.
"They've always been sort of the quiet competitor," he said. "They want to keep a lower profile. They don't want to stir up any anti-Japanese fervor."
Miller said Toyota, which has invested more than $18 billion in the United States and created more than 38,000 jobs here in the past 20 years, has nothing to hide.
"We're not afraid of a backlash," he said. "Who's going to backlash against the company that has Camry? Camry is designed, engineered and built in the United States."
For first time, Toyota is top U.S. brand
Carmaker passes Chevy, Ford on strength of growing retail auto sales.
Bryce G. Hoffman / The Detroit News
While Ford and Chevrolet continue their perennial fight for dominance in the U.S. car and truck market, Toyota has slipped in under the radar to claim the top spot as the best-selling automotive brand in America.
The Japanese automaker is just too modest to mention it.
Through May, Toyota Motor Corp. led all brands with U.S. unit sales of 954,000 vehicles, a razor-thin 5,200 units ahead of General Motors Corp.'s Chevy brand and 40,000 better than the Ford Motor Co.'s Ford brand.
The Toyota brand's lead is far wider when it comes to all-important retail sales, which exclude low-margin sales to car rental companies and other fleets. In April, Toyota's namesake brand claimed 15.8 percent of the U.S. retail vehicle market, compared to 11.9 percent for Chevy and 11.1 percent for Ford, according to an analysis of national sales transaction data prepared for The Detroit News by R.L. Polk & Co.
The Toyota figures include its youth-oriented Scion models because they are sold through the same dealer network, but exclude its luxury Lexus brand.
Toyota spokesman Irv Miller said the company is aware of its position in the market but believes there is little value in leveraging it for promotional purposes because most Toyota buyers are more interested in attributes such as quality and fuel economy. In the same vein, Toyota has downplayed the fact that it passed GM in worldwide sales volumes in the first quarter of this year.
"We're not crowing about it because it's not in our nature to crow," Miller said. "Who really cares? To those people who have Toyota on their consideration list, it isn't going to matter. And to those people who aren't considering Toyota, it doesn't matter either."
But it matters to Ford and Chevrolet. The battle for the title of America's best-selling brand has long been waged between Ford and Chevy and each makes much of the bragging rights that come with it.
When Chevy launched an advertising campaign claiming it was the No. 1 brand in 2005 based on unit sales, Ford shot back by releasing vehicle registration figures that showed the crown still belonged to the blue oval. Ford did not dispute the sales numbers, but said registration data should be the "industry standard."
Toyota took the lead in retail sales without fanfare at the end of last year and has continued to beat Ford and Chevy since.
"They'll surpass Ford this year, and they have a really good shot at surpassing Chevrolet," said analyst Erich Merkle of IRN Inc. in Grand Rapids, who expects Toyota to remain on top. "It's going to be really difficult for the Big Three to gain that momentum back."
Toyota has been steadily chiseling away for years at Ford and Chevy's market share. Its advance gained momentum with the launch of the Scion line in 2002.
Scion's styling and low sticker price are designed to appeal to younger, first-time new car buyers.
Toyota also has expanded into new areas, including full-size pickups, a segment traditionally owned by Detroit brands.
Ford and GM contend that Scion is really a separate brand and should not be included in Toyota's tally -- exclude it and Toyota drops back behind its U.S. rivals -- and they downplayed the significance of being No. 1.
"Moral victories like Fusion beating Camry in Consumer Reports, F-Series remaining the most capable, best-selling truck and Edge beating Highlander to become the No. 1 crossover mean the most to us," said Ford spokesman Jim Cain. "As we keep chalking up more victories like that, sales and share will follow."
Cain said Ford is in the midst of a massive restructuring and hopes to find profitability as a smaller, leaner automaker.
GM spokesman Terry Rhadigan said Chevy is more focused on growing its retail market share than its place in the rankings.
"We drew a line in the sand and said we were going to increase retail market share -- and we have done that," he said. "On the total sales front, we're scratching and clawing for every one -- retail and fleet -- to regain our position as America's No. 1 brand."
IRN's Merkle said Toyota has its own reasons for staying mum beyond simple modesty.
"They've always been sort of the quiet competitor," he said. "They want to keep a lower profile. They don't want to stir up any anti-Japanese fervor."
Miller said Toyota, which has invested more than $18 billion in the United States and created more than 38,000 jobs here in the past 20 years, has nothing to hide.
"We're not afraid of a backlash," he said. "Who's going to backlash against the company that has Camry? Camry is designed, engineered and built in the United States."
Lexus Fanatic
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From: A better place
Robarapta, thanks for that info. With this info at hand, it does look like Civic supply is comfortably meeting demand.
For all those that are confused, what this list shows basically is the supply/demand ratio of a vehicle and how quick off the lot it's sold. The Audi TT and Lexus LS may have low production volumes, but this list tells us demand is definitely exceeding supply, since they are flying off the lots at a quick rate. This also explains the Lexus GX; production most likely is dropping for the GX, which is why demand is very close to supply.
If the Civic was in very high demand (if demand was outstripping supply) then the Civic would be on this list, but it is not.
For all those that are confused, what this list shows basically is the supply/demand ratio of a vehicle and how quick off the lot it's sold. The Audi TT and Lexus LS may have low production volumes, but this list tells us demand is definitely exceeding supply, since they are flying off the lots at a quick rate. This also explains the Lexus GX; production most likely is dropping for the GX, which is why demand is very close to supply.
If the Civic was in very high demand (if demand was outstripping supply) then the Civic would be on this list, but it is not.
Pole Position
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 303
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From: CA
As Mr. Jones has mentioned, that data is old and does NOT cover last year (2006). It covers model year 2006. Either way, that data does not accurately represent fleet sales for the new Camry, so as I said until you can provide me solid proof then you should not jump to such assumptions. The data you provided shows fleet sales for the old Camry, and the fleet percentage is understandable given that it was an old model on it's way out. Same thing for the Corolla ... an old model on it's way out.
http://www.fleet-central.com/af/stats2006/AFFB06_j.pdf
With the new Camry being quite popular, don't be so sure the Accord outsells it in raw retail sales. That may have been the case in the past, but we have to see data showing the current situation.
I can't find the exact link where it mentions the "10%" for Toyota fleet sales, but I will post it as soon as I do find it.
I can't find the exact link where it mentions the "10%" for Toyota fleet sales, but I will post it as soon as I do find it.
Still waiting for you to post atleast ONE link to support any of your assumptions. I'm trying my best here to back up what I am saying, but everything you have said so far has just been assumptions due to your lack of support.
The difference was WAY more than a couple hundred dollars. Try almost DOUBLE. January 2007 was the month that Honda increased its incentives the greatest. Looking at incentive numbers before then showed a dramatic difference between Honda and Toyota incentives. For December of 2006, Honda incentives were at $472. Toyota was at $1,363. For the year 2006, Honda incentives averaged $335 less than Toyota. Yet at the same time, Honda increased incentives almost 12% for 2006 while Toyota increased only right around 8%. So even when Honda increased its incentives at a higher rate than Toyota, the difference was still clearly greater than a couple hundred dollars for the two. That difference is higher than what the difference between the two is now.
http://www.edmunds.com/help/about/pr...1/article.html
That is all thanks to May sales. Excluding May, Civic sales are down 11% YTD. You also failed to acknowledge May was a record month for many makers in term of car sales, as gas prices hit some record highs. People may have bought a lot of Civics in May due to rising demand in fuel efficient vehicles. That could be also why vehicles like the Corolla hit record sales in May. Shall I then argue that all of a sudden Toyota increased Corolla production just because Corolla sales went up?
I refuse to believe that (according to you) a manufacturer like Honda, with all of it's plants being flexible, and it's ability to adapt very quickly to changing market conditions and market demand, had production problems meeting demand for the Civic (during all the months that Civic sales were down) and now that Civic sales jump up for one month, all of a sudden this is entirely due to increased production, not due to increased demand for fuel efficient vehicles. And all those months of down sales were not due to decreased demand or anything else, but entirely due to production problems. Furthermore, you claim these production problems did not occur when the new Civic first came out, but months later when Honda was re-tooling for the CR-V.
Typically, when a new car comes out, demand is rather high and sometimes makers have trouble meeting demand. As months pass they increase production and begin to meet demand no problem. If everything you say were fact, then it makes Honda seem rather ignorant and even stupid. If Civic demand had remained so high since the car came out, why did Honda initially have no problem keeping up with demand, yet all of a sudden run into trouble just because of CR-V re-tooling? Why would Honda knowingly disrupt production of the Civic, a FAR better seller and more important model than the CR-V, just for CR-V re-tooling *if* demand had remained high? If that was the case, why didn't Honda change production volumes for other models like the Accord (which Honda is using incentives to push now due to lower demand) or the Ridgeline or even the Pilot? Less popular models such as these could have had their production shifted in order to meet demand for the Civic all while smoothly re-tooling for the CR-V at the same time.
Honda is using incentives on the Accord because it is about to get a full model change in a few months. Though not to the point Toyota took it at the end of the 2006MY life cycle when they were selling LE Camry's for $18k out the door... But yes, Honda is using incentives on the Accord to get them off of lots to make room for the 2008 model.
To reiterate, if everything you say is fact, then Honda was rather narrow-minded, stupid and ignorant (which is VERY uncharacteristic of the company and also highly unlikely) in the way that they handled this whole situation. I highly respect Honda, and I think they are an amazing corporation, along with Toyota. I also happen to own a Honda myself. But what you are saying is rather ridiculous for a company like Honda.
You misunderstood what I said. I was not referring to list of "Top 20" best selling cars in the US. The Civic is quite obviously on that list.
What I was referring to was the "days on the lot" average for the Civic. Every so often there are industry numbers that come out that show which vehicles sit on the dealer's lot for the least days (average). When a vehicle has a low "days on the lot" average, that usually indicates demand is outstripping supply. The industry considers an average of 60 days as satisfactory or decent. 30 days is considered pretty good, and anything under 20 is considered to be stellar. Anything under 10 is rare and outright dazzling. A year ago the Civic and Prius were both under 10 days. For the past few months though, I do not remember seeing the Civic on such lists. That indicates supply is comfortably meeting demand.
What I was referring to was the "days on the lot" average for the Civic. Every so often there are industry numbers that come out that show which vehicles sit on the dealer's lot for the least days (average). When a vehicle has a low "days on the lot" average, that usually indicates demand is outstripping supply. The industry considers an average of 60 days as satisfactory or decent. 30 days is considered pretty good, and anything under 20 is considered to be stellar. Anything under 10 is rare and outright dazzling. A year ago the Civic and Prius were both under 10 days. For the past few months though, I do not remember seeing the Civic on such lists. That indicates supply is comfortably meeting demand.
So still waiting on a answer for a few questions I had for you. Let me make it more obvious:
1.) What does public incentives have to do with private fleet sales?
2.) What is your theory for increased Civic sales. And be serious, nothing funny like you have said in the past.
I've said it before and I'll say it again:
1.) Please, stop with the assumptions. Your arguments have ZERO credibility with them
2.) Prove your info so they aren't assumptions.
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,285
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From: A better place
Your arguments seem to be going in circles. Just like myself, you are making plenty of assumptions on Honda's part regarding what they are and aren't doing. Do you work for Honda? Do you directly have access and knowledge of the decisions senior Honda management makes, or direct access to the popularity of the Civic? Chances are you don't, and that makes your assumptions and your arguments no more credible than mine.
The facts are what they are. The Camry outsells the Accord by a comfortable margin. Fact. We do not know the fleet sales for the new Camry, another fact. Civic sales over the past year have been inconsistent. Yet another fact. If Honda has made mistakes in not producing enough specific trims of the Civic, or not properly allocating production, in the end it doesn't really matter. Civic sales are what they are. The responsibility is on Honda to keep production up, and to keep specific model trims adequately supplied to dealers. Was Honda really so stupid as to keep supplying for months and months model trims of the Civic that were not in demand. Do you really believe Honda allowed (for several months) unwanted trims of the Civic to pile up on dealer lots? If Civic sales were affected because people got alienated by the high-tech futuristic look of the new Civic, then again the responsibility is on Honda's part to make a car that properly appeals to the market.
You keep bringing up the Fit and CR-V, yet you have failed to address my points that Honda could have easily lowered production of other models like the Pilot, Ridgeline in order to increase Civic production. The Fit has been around for a few years now, and the model we get in North America is not "new", as it's been out in world markets for several years now. The Civic overall makes much more profit for Honda than the CR-V does, so I don't buy your argument. The Civic overall is much more beneficial than the CR-V is for Honda.
Just to restate: unless you directly work for Honda, your assumptions are no better than mine.
The facts are what they are. The Camry outsells the Accord by a comfortable margin. Fact. We do not know the fleet sales for the new Camry, another fact. Civic sales over the past year have been inconsistent. Yet another fact. If Honda has made mistakes in not producing enough specific trims of the Civic, or not properly allocating production, in the end it doesn't really matter. Civic sales are what they are. The responsibility is on Honda to keep production up, and to keep specific model trims adequately supplied to dealers. Was Honda really so stupid as to keep supplying for months and months model trims of the Civic that were not in demand. Do you really believe Honda allowed (for several months) unwanted trims of the Civic to pile up on dealer lots? If Civic sales were affected because people got alienated by the high-tech futuristic look of the new Civic, then again the responsibility is on Honda's part to make a car that properly appeals to the market.
You keep bringing up the Fit and CR-V, yet you have failed to address my points that Honda could have easily lowered production of other models like the Pilot, Ridgeline in order to increase Civic production. The Fit has been around for a few years now, and the model we get in North America is not "new", as it's been out in world markets for several years now. The Civic overall makes much more profit for Honda than the CR-V does, so I don't buy your argument. The Civic overall is much more beneficial than the CR-V is for Honda.
Just to restate: unless you directly work for Honda, your assumptions are no better than mine.
Last edited by TRDFantasy; Jun 17, 2007 at 11:08 PM.