It all comes down to public perception. If Americans knew the economic and environmental burden of producing and disposing of hybrid cars, and stopped thinking about 30 year old buses with plumes of black smoke spewing from their tailpipes when they consider diesel technology, things might be a little different now.

 

The media and celebrities have also pushed hybrids......as has government by giving hybrids tax credits and special HOV priviledges. It has to be remembered, though, that many of the people in the general media, entertainment industry, and government (not the auto press) who are pushing hybrids are not as car-saavy as we are here on CL, and, as ff correctly points out, many people are buying an image more than an actual product, and not considering the potential problems and complexities associated with hybrids.

 

Yeah mmarshall, a lot of people buy hybrids to say "look at me, I'm green, you're not."

 

I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic, but personally, I believe that a good number of people do buy hybrids for the "perceived" status.

 

Case in point: Lexus LS600h

 

Well, hybrids may be "green" when it comes to gas mileage and emissions, but not-so-green when it comes to disposing of battery packs. Environmentialists are still trying to figure out how to recycle them......and they better come up with something pretty soon, because the first ones sold on the 2000 Priuses and Insights are now almost 8 years old....their average expected lifespan.

Hybrids are also QUITE green when it comes to price....you will spend a LOT more "green" than for an equivalent non-hybrid.

 

....and you wil almost never achieve what the EPA says. Because you'd probably end up requiring more gasoline-motor assist than expected, given that you drive at least normally.

At least I've never been disappointed by the fuel consumption on our supposedly-thirsty X3. EPA says 17 miles to the gallon in urban, but our average almost always ends up higher.

 

actually it WAS true - and in a sense it is still true. Govs in Europe to still cover some costs of low sulphur diesel, and up to 1-2 years ago it was cheaper than unleaded here.

there is big difference in daily driving.

biggest difference right now is resale value - anything bigger than corolla, and it will lose huge amount of value if it is not diesel. For the price difference, you can not recoup the cost of going diesel before some 80,000-120,000 miles, depending on the car...

 

i would expect better from you.


it is widely known FACT that Toyota pays their dealers to recover Prius battery packs ($250) and that they are 100% recycable. You can google it if you want, it is part of any Toyota website for past 8 years at least.

 

What is said about recycling and what is actually done is not always the same thing.
I've gotten conflicting stories from local Toyota service managers.....a couple of whom I know quite well. I have not spoken with any Honda service managers about the issue, so I can't say for sure, but I would not be surprised if that was also the case.

As far as "expecting better from me", I don't care if you criticize my posts, as long as it is fair and doesn't misquote something I say. You raised a valid point with this one, at least on your part......My experience has just not been quite the same. With almost 17,000 posts, I have been criticized numerous times, both in CAR CHAT and the Debate threads.

 

Toyota has a battery recycling plant in Japan. Dealers get a bounty for each battery they send back to Toyota. So if the environmentalists are figuring it out, I think Toyota's one step ahead with a plant in place.

Don't forget there are 1998 Priuses in Japan so that pre-dates our 2001 NA Prius by 3 years. Not only that, the 98-00 Priuses are using D-Cell batteries. That's right, D-Cell. The ones we have here (2001+) are NiMH batteries.

I don't know about the lifespan bit cause taxis can easily cover 100,000kms+ a year. The 2001 Prius taxi accumulated 331,102kms before Toyota took it back to Japan (and gave the driver a new 2003) for inspection. At that time, it was the highest mileage Prius so they wanted to see the wear & tear on that car. Since then, he has a 2004 Prius which he bought to replace his 2003.

Here's the full service history of the 2001 Prius taxi.
http://www.hybridexperience.ca/Pages/images/scan.pdf

He didn't replace the rear brakes once (front were replaced twice at 30% life left).

 

Why? because even with ULSD here, they meet Tier 2 Bin 5 (which is ULEV). That's where most of the 4 and 6 cylinder gasoline cars are currently at. The Prius is at Tier 2 Bin 3 (SULEV). The zero evaporative emissions bump it from SULEV to AT-PZEV.

Also, while diesels do get similar mileage, maintenance is probably similar to a conventional gas car with some slight differences (no spark plugs is one I believe). With hybrids, there's no alternator, no power steering fluid, brake pads last longer in the city b/c of regenerative braking. Engine wear is less cause it's off half the time. Toyota's PSD (the CVT transmission in the Prius) is tiny. It's the size of a can of pop (height.. obviously the circumference of the gears is larger than the circumference of a can of pop). That's tiny for a transmission. Less moving parts too.

Diesels are still noisy and I have seen 1 Jetta and 1 Passat with black smoke but the MB ones seem to be doing ok. They definitely don't smell as bad as those trucks or busses with diesels. In fact, some modern diesel engines (that we don't get here ) are quite refined and if you sit in the driver's seat, you won't know unless you see the low redline heh. Hell, the BMW 330d can run close with its 330i brother.

For me however, I'd still go hybrid. This way, I can have a smaller engine and a larger battery pack. EV driving is awesome (can sneak home at night without waking everyone up). You can drive in underground parking lots without intoxicating passer-bys. (I noticed this when I was moving my car to the carwash place in my friend's underground carpark. His car is a TSX with ULEV rating. When he moved, boy did I finally appreciate EV mode). Lastly, I don't have to idle.

What would be sweet is if the modern diesel came with "idle stop" (or whatever you'd like to call it. I know VW had a diesel engine back in the 90s that would shut off at traffic lights or whenever you stopped, similar to modern hybrids. I don't know why they took it off the market.

 

Conan O'Brien last night said something like... "Lexus has come out with a $120K hybrid sedan. For those who want to be environmentally conscious, even if they're selfish a-holes."