November 2006 Car Sales Thread!
The bottom 2 points are your opinion and that I can respect, even if I do not agree.
Flawed logic. V-8 sales are always very small compared to V-6 sales. V-8 Rls would be maybe 55-60k, no one is going to buy that and if they did, maybe 100 sales a month.
So if Acura sells 700 V-6 RLs a month, then not even 1/2 that will be V-8 sales. They still would not break 1,000 a month in this hypothetical November.
Let me say, it is not like the world is holding it's collective breath waiting for a V-8 Acura. PRESTIGE is the name of the game at that price point and if you lack it, you will suffer.
Flawed logic. V-8 sales are always very small compared to V-6 sales. V-8 Rls would be maybe 55-60k, no one is going to buy that and if they did, maybe 100 sales a month.
So if Acura sells 700 V-6 RLs a month, then not even 1/2 that will be V-8 sales. They still would not break 1,000 a month in this hypothetical November.
Let me say, it is not like the world is holding it's collective breath waiting for a V-8 Acura. PRESTIGE is the name of the game at that price point and if you lack it, you will suffer.
Lexus Champion
Joined: Mar 2005
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From: CA
I think it's both. The LS sells better in part because of greater value (at the price point), but the Lexus brand has significant prestige to command a price point more on par with the Germans than any other luxury brand (Luxury Institute studies, etc.). The Lexus reputation of service, coupled with the stellar reputation of the LS in reliability surveys and in (most unbiased) reviews together all make a compelling case for the LS flagship.
As for the Acura RL, IMO the car lost something when the Legend name was dropped. There was a time when the redesigned Legend was expected to take on the LS 400. That time has passed, and the RL has been downgraded. IMO the RL doesn't sell well because like some other near-luxury brands the public perception/focus is on the more entry-luxury vehicles (TSX, TL) which are quite popular and successful. When one thinks of Acura one thinks of those vehicles, not the RL. It's too bad as the RL is a very good value and has technological innovations many fullsize V8 flagships lack, but I think it needs a reimagining to determine its success in the Acura lineup. Does it want to be a full flagship? Or a midsize 5 series/E-class/GS competitor?
Also perhaps adding RWD to the Acura lineup, much as Cadillac did, would affect things, but I think that is anathema to Honda's philosophy for some reason.
As for the Acura RL, IMO the car lost something when the Legend name was dropped. There was a time when the redesigned Legend was expected to take on the LS 400. That time has passed, and the RL has been downgraded. IMO the RL doesn't sell well because like some other near-luxury brands the public perception/focus is on the more entry-luxury vehicles (TSX, TL) which are quite popular and successful. When one thinks of Acura one thinks of those vehicles, not the RL. It's too bad as the RL is a very good value and has technological innovations many fullsize V8 flagships lack, but I think it needs a reimagining to determine its success in the Acura lineup. Does it want to be a full flagship? Or a midsize 5 series/E-class/GS competitor?
Also perhaps adding RWD to the Acura lineup, much as Cadillac did, would affect things, but I think that is anathema to Honda's philosophy for some reason.
If anything, a V8 (or V10 
) would up the prestige of Acura, even if most of the sales come from the 6-cyl version. Most of the 5-series' sales come from the 530i. Imagine BMW not offering a V8. Would the 530i sell as well? I doubt it. It'll be in the same position as the current RL.
) would up the prestige of Acura, even if most of the sales come from the 6-cyl version. Most of the 5-series' sales come from the 530i. Imagine BMW not offering a V8. Would the 530i sell as well? I doubt it. It'll be in the same position as the current RL.
CL Community Team
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 30,277
Likes: 354
From: Canada
If you believe a V8 RL will sell as many as 2-3K per month, which is what the old LS430 usually does most of the time, I think that would be WAY overly optimistic.
Even for the Infiniti M, the main reason why they manage to increase from a few hundred sales per month for the previous generation M45 to about 2K per month total for this new generation is because of the availability of the V6 M35 in addition to the V8 M45 this time. Plus the Infiniti M is larger in size than the RL/5 series/GS, it's as spacious as the Q45, the M45 is the defacto Infiniti flagship right now, & they are selling a few hundred per month now, the M35 still makes up the bulk of the sale. So I tend to agree it won't help them that much even if a V8 RL is added.
Even for the Infiniti M, the main reason why they manage to increase from a few hundred sales per month for the previous generation M45 to about 2K per month total for this new generation is because of the availability of the V6 M35 in addition to the V8 M45 this time. Plus the Infiniti M is larger in size than the RL/5 series/GS, it's as spacious as the Q45, the M45 is the defacto Infiniti flagship right now, & they are selling a few hundred per month now, the M35 still makes up the bulk of the sale. So I tend to agree it won't help them that much even if a V8 RL is added.
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Well, think back to the original Acura Legend, which sold like hotcakes. Prestige is prestige, but why is Lexus LS outselling the S class and 7 series? Not because of the prestige, but because of much greater value. If Acura RL received a V8, and cost around 55K fully loaded, I believe it would sell as well, or almost as well as the new LS, because it would offer a greater value.
The LS does sell b/c of prestige, not as much as the Germans but clearly more than everyone else (Acura, Infiniti, Lincoln, Caddy,Audi, etc). I will say value does play a part but its not "fake" value, you don't get a FWD LS for less. You get a V-8, RWD LS for less.
As for a V-8 RL, it would be GS competiton, not LS competiton. The LS has NEVER had a V-6 option. The LS is so far ahead the rest of the Japanese luxury sedans it is not even funny.
THe fact is, espensive Acura's do not sell. The NSX is a fabulous car, and sold poorly 12 out of the 14 years it was sold.
CL Community Team
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 30,277
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From: Canada
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If you believe a V8 RL will sell as many as 2-3K per month, which is what the old LS430 usually does most of the time, I think that would be WAY overly optimistic.
Even for the Infiniti M, the main reason why they manage to increase from a few hundred sales per month for the previous generation M45 to about 2K per month total for this new generation is because of the availability of the V6 M35 in addition to the V8 M45 this time. Plus the Infiniti M is larger in size than the RL/5 series/GS, it's as spacious as the Q45, the M45 is the defacto Infiniti flagship right now, & they are selling a few hundred per month now, the M35 still makes up the bulk of the sale. So I tend to agree it won't help them that much even if a V8 RL is added.
Even for the Infiniti M, the main reason why they manage to increase from a few hundred sales per month for the previous generation M45 to about 2K per month total for this new generation is because of the availability of the V6 M35 in addition to the V8 M45 this time. Plus the Infiniti M is larger in size than the RL/5 series/GS, it's as spacious as the Q45, the M45 is the defacto Infiniti flagship right now, & they are selling a few hundred per month now, the M35 still makes up the bulk of the sale. So I tend to agree it won't help them that much even if a V8 RL is added.
Acura cannot sell a V-6 RL, how on earth will they sell a V-8 one? Its bigger than having an engine, its the BRAND. Acura's have a great niche, the sub 40k class, they do very well in (TSX, TL, MDX base). Outside the MDX, no Acura over 40k has sold well in their history.
What Acura and Infiniti have problems doing is establishing a BRAND. They have some great products, like the TL and M35/45 but OVERALL, the image and perception of the brand is tier 2, 3, which means, people will simply overlook them the higher the price of a vehicle.
Audi has the SAME problem. They make FANTASTIC vehicles, the A4 sells well, but the higher the price, (A6/A8 etc), the public does not perceive them in America to be worthy of the money.
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Yes, while it maybe laughable to an enthusiast that BMW sells over 1,200 every single month of 185hp (not sure they got the engine bump) 525s, from a business perspective, that is genius, as that means there are almost 15,000 people a year that want a badge and a bigger car and performance is not the main reason for buying.
That is why I wished Lexus KEPT the GS 300, offered it as a base car and drop the price and see if they could get an additional 1,000 sales.
I am sure too, that a 525 sells for the same price as a RL when you look at options for the BMW and discounts for the RL!
Sad to think a 525 outsells the RL.
That is why I wished Lexus KEPT the GS 300, offered it as a base car and drop the price and see if they could get an additional 1,000 sales.
I am sure too, that a 525 sells for the same price as a RL when you look at options for the BMW and discounts for the RL!
Sad to think a 525 outsells the RL.
Lexus Champion
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 2,854
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From: IL
The Audi and Acura RL have terrible residuals. The 215hp 525 has best in class residuals (I believe at least 14 possibly 16 percent higher). Couple this with money factor support (interest rate on leases) and the 525 leases out at a very attractive price compared to the A6 and RL.
PS - not sure if the RL residuals have rebounded - they were close to 48 percent and to be honest, I don't know why.
PS - not sure if the RL residuals have rebounded - they were close to 48 percent and to be honest, I don't know why.
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The Audi and Acura RL have terrible residuals. The 215hp 525 has best in class residuals (I believe at least 14 possibly 16 percent higher). Couple this with money factor support (interest rate on leases) and the 525 leases out at a very attractive price compared to the A6 and RL.
PS - not sure if the RL residuals have rebounded - they were close to 48 percent and to be honest, I don't know why.
PS - not sure if the RL residuals have rebounded - they were close to 48 percent and to be honest, I don't know why.
Lexus Champion
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 2,854
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From: IL
Maybe even higher? I dunno.
I do know that the old RL had decent residuals and when the new one came out, they were crap. I was talking to a friend who is an Acura sales guy and he said they did not start to move at all until Acura started to help out. They were leasing out near $900 per month (36/month lease 12K/year) before Acura helped out!!!
I do know that the old RL had decent residuals and when the new one came out, they were crap. I was talking to a friend who is an Acura sales guy and he said they did not start to move at all until Acura started to help out. They were leasing out near $900 per month (36/month lease 12K/year) before Acura helped out!!!
Lexus Test Driver
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 8,181
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From: New York
GS sales are very bad but there are reasons that explain this........The IS on the other hand is really down now compared to 3series and new G35 without explanation.
Like others stated GS sales are suffering due to horrible lease rates compared to 5 series and E class. Also the fact it has no v8 option is hurting it.................But I also feel the Infiniti M is a major reason for the GS downfall.
In NYC i see about 5 Ms for every GS, and lots of M45s also. E class and 5 series will get their ussual sales on name and prestige alone, so GS has lost most of their would be sales to Infiniti. I feel people are getting the M because its a better value, its bigger inside, and said for me to say but it has prescence and its styling makes it standout, where the GS blends in.
I wish Lexus would do something already because its still very hard for me to understand how Infiniti, with a much weaker brand image and much smaller dealer network is OUTSELLING Lexus in one of the most important segments.
Like others stated GS sales are suffering due to horrible lease rates compared to 5 series and E class. Also the fact it has no v8 option is hurting it.................But I also feel the Infiniti M is a major reason for the GS downfall.
In NYC i see about 5 Ms for every GS, and lots of M45s also. E class and 5 series will get their ussual sales on name and prestige alone, so GS has lost most of their would be sales to Infiniti. I feel people are getting the M because its a better value, its bigger inside, and said for me to say but it has prescence and its styling makes it standout, where the GS blends in.
I wish Lexus would do something already because its still very hard for me to understand how Infiniti, with a much weaker brand image and much smaller dealer network is OUTSELLING Lexus in one of the most important segments.
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Jan 2005
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From: A better place
There are great lease rates available on 3 Series as well. I've been hearing good deals even on the new 335i. Lexus has among the industry's lowest incentives and discounts, and their lease rates tend to be quite high. A lot of IS buyers likely are jumping ship to buy a discounted 3 Series. This coupled with the new G35 has caused IS sales to drop a bit. Also, recent information from Japan shows that the IS350 is still in low supply, and demand remains high. It appears that Toyota is possibly limiting supply.