BMW and MB be afraid...
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That's actually funny.
Consider the fact that 325i, 325xi, 330i combine to outsell IS250, IS250 AWD, and IS350. 6092 vs 5553.
3 has outsold IS every single month. In addition, considering that the BWM is down in month of august for annual summer break that cuts back on the east cost sales. It still beats IS.
Have you actually look at the numbers?
Quick comparison since introduction.
3 series (3 model) IS (3 model)
8/06 6092 5553
7/06 6057 4848
6/06 7462 4461
5/06 7657 4605
4/06 7949 4715
3/06 7062 5210
2/06 6642 3882
1/06 6604 4073
12/05 7469 4518
11/05 7697 4447
I took out 10/05 sales figure as 2IS was new that month hence data is skewed.
In late Jan to feb, BMW had recall on 3/5 that resulted in cars being delayed at VPC. Hence slight drop in sales. July and August are typical slow month for BMW as BMW prepares and shutsdown for summer vacation. In addition, BMW is also doing E90's mid-life upgrade. I am still suprised that E90 still sold over 6K unit per month. Since 06 E90 production ended in late july and will not resume until 1st week of september.
The 335i/328i E90 won't arrive until October. So I expect to see a dip in september as well as october number for E90 (west coast transit is 3 weeks longer than east coast).
To make statment that BMW needs to be afraid is ignorant as best. However, Mercedes does needs to be worried as C-class is getting killed. But for a old car, it's holding its own against the new IS. It would be more interesting to see what will happen to the IS when new C-class debuts. As the IS competes with C more than it does with the 3.
Consider the fact that 325i, 325xi, 330i combine to outsell IS250, IS250 AWD, and IS350. 6092 vs 5553.
3 has outsold IS every single month. In addition, considering that the BWM is down in month of august for annual summer break that cuts back on the east cost sales. It still beats IS.
Have you actually look at the numbers?
Quick comparison since introduction.
3 series (3 model) IS (3 model)
8/06 6092 5553
7/06 6057 4848
6/06 7462 4461
5/06 7657 4605
4/06 7949 4715
3/06 7062 5210
2/06 6642 3882
1/06 6604 4073
12/05 7469 4518
11/05 7697 4447
I took out 10/05 sales figure as 2IS was new that month hence data is skewed.
In late Jan to feb, BMW had recall on 3/5 that resulted in cars being delayed at VPC. Hence slight drop in sales. July and August are typical slow month for BMW as BMW prepares and shutsdown for summer vacation. In addition, BMW is also doing E90's mid-life upgrade. I am still suprised that E90 still sold over 6K unit per month. Since 06 E90 production ended in late july and will not resume until 1st week of september.
The 335i/328i E90 won't arrive until October. So I expect to see a dip in september as well as october number for E90 (west coast transit is 3 weeks longer than east coast).
To make statment that BMW needs to be afraid is ignorant as best. However, Mercedes does needs to be worried as C-class is getting killed. But for a old car, it's holding its own against the new IS. It would be more interesting to see what will happen to the IS when new C-class debuts. As the IS competes with C more than it does with the 3.
I agree that I think the title is very misleading, as not only in the USA but worldwide, IS sales are a drop in the bucket.
It seems in this segment there is space for many players. THe G35 came out of nowhere and is good for 5k a month. The TL is good for 6k a month. The IS now is good for 5k a month and that is a new car.
It doesn't seem like ANYONE is suffering in this segment.
Guest
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It started with 250/350 allocation. 350 demand is a lot higher than Lexus forecasted.
There is no doubt though, the IS is a COMPLETE AND TOTAL HOME RUN FOR LEXUS!
Guest
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The IS has done well at expense of Mercedes and same applies to the 3 series. However, look at the car itself in terms of vehicle dynamic and customer profile. The IS competes much more directly with the C than it does with the 3. That's why even though Is has done well, the 3 sales never suffered and is in fact better than previous 3.
You have absolutely no proof to back up such a claim. NONE whatsoever. We have no data from anywhere to prove or even DISPROVE that statement.
Last edited by LexFather; Sep 2, 2006 at 12:08 PM.
Guest
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What I want to know is, where are those sales coming from? So say the IS had not been replaced, what would the extra 4,000 people have bought each month?
I know for a fact that many of the purchasers would never consider a BMW or MB because they are true believers in Toyota quality - so would the G35 have gotten those sales? And yet, I am sure that some of the sales would have gone to MB and BMW (I know of one of them) and even the G35 - but where would the rest of them have gone?
Freggin mystery -anyone else care to guess? CTS?
I know for a fact that many of the purchasers would never consider a BMW or MB because they are true believers in Toyota quality - so would the G35 have gotten those sales? And yet, I am sure that some of the sales would have gone to MB and BMW (I know of one of them) and even the G35 - but where would the rest of them have gone?
Freggin mystery -anyone else care to guess? CTS?
Lets go back to 2001! There was NO IS, no G35! So we have an additonal 10,000 sales a month since then and no one seems to be hurt.
TL sales have not really suffered and its the oldest car.
I am thinking Saab, Volvo, and maybe non luxury branded cars in the 30-40k price range?
Amazing no?
Lexus Champion
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 2,854
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From: IL
Doug I have struggled with this as well. I can't even begin to prove any theory of mine. Clearly the leaders or usual suspects have not suffered.
Lets go back to 2001! There was NO IS, no G35! So we have an additonal 10,000 sales a month since then and no one seems to be hurt.
TL sales have not really suffered and its the oldest car.
I am thinking Saab, Volvo, and maybe non luxury branded cars in the 30-40k price range?
Amazing no?
Lets go back to 2001! There was NO IS, no G35! So we have an additonal 10,000 sales a month since then and no one seems to be hurt.
TL sales have not really suffered and its the oldest car.
I am thinking Saab, Volvo, and maybe non luxury branded cars in the 30-40k price range?
Amazing no?
Guest
Posts: n/a
Well my wife's friend (and owner of a IS250 AWD) traded in a Volvo C70 - so you might be on to something here. The fact is there are a lot of people in the IS demographic who have been burned badly by the competition and want something that is not only reliable but good looking. Plus last time I looked, our economy is doing pretty good.
The luxury market is just increasing in price and in sales and I believe experts say it will grow 40% the next 10 years or so (not sure where the source is).
Lexus Fanatic
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From: A better place
To make statment that BMW needs to be afraid is ignorant as best. However, Mercedes does needs to be worried as C-class is getting killed. But for a old car, it's holding its own against the new IS. It would be more interesting to see what will happen to the IS when new C-class debuts. As the IS competes with C more than it does with the 3.
To say that BMW should not be worried is ignorance, in the same way of BMW execs laughing at the Detroit Auto Show back in 1989 when the LS400 debuted. Now BMW execs must sit and shake their head as to how the LS continually beats the 7 Series in sales in the North American market.
Don't think Lexus will merely sit around and not expand the IS series. The IS, GS, and LS are no longer just one car; they have become a series of cars, that Lexus will expand in the future.
Just as BMW has new 3 Coupe coming, Lexus has an IS Coupe coming, and there is also the rumoured V8 IS.
Lexus Champion
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 8,695
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From: CA
Right, the LS 400 debuted in 1989, and after strong sales growth Lexus became the top import brand in 1991. It took about 3 years. I suspect that BMW will not make the same mistake of underestimating Lexus again, so this time the competition will be closer.
Intermediate
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 261
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From: ca
Prior to introduction of IS, the C-class on average sold between 5.5k to 6k a month. After IS introudction, the number went down to 4k a month. In addition, the C hit all time low of less than 3k a month in feb 06 and missed 4k in march. And has to rely heavily on incentive just to keep its 4k a month share. In other words, the IS has took close to 1k to 2k of sales away from the C.
There are no other new car that came into this segment other than the IS. Hence, my comment is based on the actual trends.
IS lacks the vehicle dynamic of the 3 series. Hence you really haven't seen the 3 series sales drop because of IS. You on the other hand did see a mark drop of C-class sales. Which clearly shows the effect of IS on the C, hence my statement is correct.
Intermediate
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 261
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From: ca
To say that BMW should not be worried is ignorance, in the same way of BMW execs laughing at the Detroit Auto Show back in 1989 when the LS400 debuted. Now BMW execs must sit and shake their head as to how the LS continually beats the 7 Series in sales in the North American market.
Don't think Lexus will merely sit around and not expand the IS series. The IS, GS, and LS are no longer just one car; they have become a series of cars, that Lexus will expand in the future.
Just as BMW has new 3 Coupe coming, Lexus has an IS Coupe coming, and there is also the rumoured V8 IS.
Don't think Lexus will merely sit around and not expand the IS series. The IS, GS, and LS are no longer just one car; they have become a series of cars, that Lexus will expand in the future.
Just as BMW has new 3 Coupe coming, Lexus has an IS Coupe coming, and there is also the rumoured V8 IS.
Let's Look at LS and 7 series sales.
LS 7
Aug 1386 1395
july 971 1308
june 1014 1437
may 1085 1598
april 1071 1624
march 1341 1970
Feb 1015 1428
jan 1190 1466
dec 2320 2176
nov 1670 1623
oct 1637 1593
Hmm, since jan of this year, the LS430 has been outsold by the 7 series.
I guess exec at BMWNA must be so worried about the LS400. BMW was never a big player with the 7 series. Each succesive 7 series BMW has introduced also has increased its share.
IS has new coupe coming so what? Will it dent the 3 series sales? Probably not. It has already been show that the IS sedan has done nothing to beat 3 series sedan. What makes you think that IS coupe would beat 3 series coupe sales? Do you really think that IS V8 will have a chance against the new M3?
Like i have said in the previous post. The more IS expand, it will only hurt the C-class. Unless Lexus wise up and rework the IS with better steering, there is no way that IS will take share away from the 3 series. They simply attracts different people.
I am too lazy to post the GS series sales as well. But as i have said previously, the 5 is also dominating this segment as well.
BMW is not sitting around as well. The new 7 is only couple more years away. The new X5 is around the corner as well.
Lexus has done very well with the SUV segement (especially RX trumping the X5). But car for car, lexus has not done well against BMW in segment they compete.
I will only say this. Lexus has done well against mercedes, but has not really done anything against BMW except RX, a segment that lexus invented. It would be interesting to see what the new X5 will do against the RX.
Lexus Champion
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 8,695
Likes: 2
From: CA
The numbers are compelling but it's still supposition. It could simply be that the C-class' popularity is diminishing as its model cycle winds down.
If the IS is largely responsible for the loss of C-class sales, then it in large part has to do with the brand image of Lexus being closer to Mercedes, IMO, than anything to do with the car. The C-class is roomer in feel and looks very stodgy compared to the IS, while the IS is more tight like the 3-series and looks very aggressive. Again, the emphasis on 'being a better 3-series' is hype IMO. The Lexus IS is a Lexus, make no apologies about it.
You speak as if the mission of the IS is to take down the 3-series. In PR, yes, in reality I think not really. Any 3-series effects will be a side effect of what the IS really is meant to do--give Lexus a major foothold in the entry sport luxury market, which it has.
If the IS is largely responsible for the loss of C-class sales, then it in large part has to do with the brand image of Lexus being closer to Mercedes, IMO, than anything to do with the car. The C-class is roomer in feel and looks very stodgy compared to the IS, while the IS is more tight like the 3-series and looks very aggressive. Again, the emphasis on 'being a better 3-series' is hype IMO. The Lexus IS is a Lexus, make no apologies about it.
You speak as if the mission of the IS is to take down the 3-series. In PR, yes, in reality I think not really. Any 3-series effects will be a side effect of what the IS really is meant to do--give Lexus a major foothold in the entry sport luxury market, which it has.
Intermediate
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 261
Likes: 12
From: ca
Doug I have struggled with this as well. I can't even begin to prove any theory of mine. Clearly the leaders or usual suspects have not suffered.
Lets go back to 2001! There was NO IS, no G35! So we have an additonal 10,000 sales a month since then and no one seems to be hurt.
TL sales have not really suffered and its the oldest car.
I am thinking Saab, Volvo, and maybe non luxury branded cars in the 30-40k price range?
Amazing no?
Lets go back to 2001! There was NO IS, no G35! So we have an additonal 10,000 sales a month since then and no one seems to be hurt.
TL sales have not really suffered and its the oldest car.
I am thinking Saab, Volvo, and maybe non luxury branded cars in the 30-40k price range?
Amazing no?
Intermediate
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 261
Likes: 12
From: ca
BMW biggest weapon this upcoming year will be the X5 which has never done well against the RX. RX easily outsold X5 by 3 to 4k a month. This will be a big pie for BMW to fight lexus on.
Also, BMW never had a car to compete with the ES, which is 8k a month in sales. But than again, it would be totally against BMW's philosphy to bring a car that competes ES.
BMW will very unlikely overtake Lexus, because what Lexus does well in, (soft ride luxury car), BMW don't compete in.
It will be difficult for BMW to over come the hole with ES (8k sales), and X5 (too harsh- 4k a month). But it was still interesting to see that with BMW abandoning the 8k ES market, BMW still only got beat by 1k to 2k a month on car sales. Which is quiet impressive.
Lexus Champion
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 8,695
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From: CA
Let's see here: in 2005, Lexus sold 26,043 LS sedans.
In 2005, BMW sold 18,165 7 series sedans.
In 2004, Lexus sold 32,272 LS sedans.
In 2004, BMW sold 16,155 7 series sedans.
Only in 2006 is the 7 series leading, and may I remind you that the 7 series is a newer design and this year LS sales are awaiting the LS 460. Your statement about BMW's 7-series share only looks at the recent months. The yearly picture tells a very different story. The LS is leading in this segment, has historically done so, and following the intro of the New LS, I expect will continue to do so.
'So what' indeed! The MAIN point of the IS coupe is to increase the IS range sales. You can see the G35 coupe being a success of its time, did it really crack the BMW market? Not necessarily, I imagine. But it's still been a success at times.
It sounds like you would rather have a 3-series sedan, coupe, or M3. Go right ahead. Enjoy your BMW, just as the Lexus owners here would enjoy their IS sedan, coupe, or V8 IS GT car. But it's ridiculous to start slamming the IS by saying 'look, BMW sales haven't gone down.' What really matters is how well the IS sells itself. Sure, the competition is very important, but this isn't some knock-down fight--that is HYPE. This is about each car and its market of customers, which overlap yes but are not the same.
I'm sure BMW owners will enjoy their brand's merits, mainly in the performance era. BMW's own research shows that 75% of luxury car buyers don't even consider BMWs. There's a reason for that--its qualities appeal to a specific group of loyal buyers. The rest?? That's fair game for the other makes which put Luxury FIRST and Sport second.
In 2005, BMW sold 18,165 7 series sedans.
In 2004, Lexus sold 32,272 LS sedans.
In 2004, BMW sold 16,155 7 series sedans.
Only in 2006 is the 7 series leading, and may I remind you that the 7 series is a newer design and this year LS sales are awaiting the LS 460. Your statement about BMW's 7-series share only looks at the recent months. The yearly picture tells a very different story. The LS is leading in this segment, has historically done so, and following the intro of the New LS, I expect will continue to do so.
IS has new coupe coming so what? Will it dent the 3 series sales? Probably not. It has already been show that the IS sedan has done nothing to beat 3 series sedan. What makes you think that IS coupe would beat 3 series coupe sales? Do you really think that IS V8 will have a chance against the new M3?
It sounds like you would rather have a 3-series sedan, coupe, or M3. Go right ahead. Enjoy your BMW, just as the Lexus owners here would enjoy their IS sedan, coupe, or V8 IS GT car. But it's ridiculous to start slamming the IS by saying 'look, BMW sales haven't gone down.' What really matters is how well the IS sells itself. Sure, the competition is very important, but this isn't some knock-down fight--that is HYPE. This is about each car and its market of customers, which overlap yes but are not the same.
I will only say this. Lexus has done well against mercedes, but has not really done anything against BMW except RX, a segment that lexus invented. It would be interesting to see what the new X5 will do against the RX.
Guest
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Not true.
Prior to introduction of IS, the C-class on average sold between 5.5k to 6k a month. After IS introudction, the number went down to 4k a month. In addition, the C hit all time low of less than 3k a month in feb 06 and missed 4k in march. And has to rely heavily on incentive just to keep its 4k a month share. In other words, the IS has took close to 1k to 2k of sales away from the C.
There are no other new car that came into this segment other than the IS. Hence, my comment is based on the actual trends.
IS lacks the vehicle dynamic of the 3 series. Hence you really haven't seen the 3 series sales drop because of IS. You on the other hand did see a mark drop of C-class sales. Which clearly shows the effect of IS on the C, hence my statement is correct.
Prior to introduction of IS, the C-class on average sold between 5.5k to 6k a month. After IS introudction, the number went down to 4k a month. In addition, the C hit all time low of less than 3k a month in feb 06 and missed 4k in march. And has to rely heavily on incentive just to keep its 4k a month share. In other words, the IS has took close to 1k to 2k of sales away from the C.
There are no other new car that came into this segment other than the IS. Hence, my comment is based on the actual trends.
IS lacks the vehicle dynamic of the 3 series. Hence you really haven't seen the 3 series sales drop because of IS. You on the other hand did see a mark drop of C-class sales. Which clearly shows the effect of IS on the C, hence my statement is correct.
At this point, your just trying to bash Lexus or the IS for not being sporty and its getting old.