Buying American
Originally Posted by bitkahuna
Maybe for cars, but don't forget the F-150 truck which outsells EVERY car and truck there is. 
Most homes in the world don't purchase 100 F150s for the family to use.
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Lexus Test Driver
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,423
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From: CA
Originally Posted by Bean
Whats this patriotic hogwash you're spilling? Ford and GM arent going to have any impact on being "better for the nation". People, the economy, culture, and information, have already leapt into the "world mode". Governments are FAR BEHIND the times. Your idea is very archaic. Toyota is as much as an American company as Ford or GM. Don't forget Ford and GM outsource A LOT of their production to Canada and Mexico. In the scheme of things, there is no "American car" or "Japanese car" or "German car" anymore. Everything is built everywhere, and everything is owned by all kinds of people from all over the earth. There are merely trends and images that compose the brands themselves. Toyota is not a "Japanese car company" anymore. Just as how Nissan isn't either (their majority stock holder is a French company for crying out loud)
I fail to see "increasing the gap between the rich and the poor" from merely looking at how cars are selling. Where did this post come from? First we get a guy asking where he can import a S15 from and now we have a random thread about how we should "try" to buy American because its patriotic and somehow helps out our economy. When in reality it makes NO DIFFERENCE.
Maybe I'm missing it, I dunno. Just struck a raw nerve.
I fail to see "increasing the gap between the rich and the poor" from merely looking at how cars are selling. Where did this post come from? First we get a guy asking where he can import a S15 from and now we have a random thread about how we should "try" to buy American because its patriotic and somehow helps out our economy. When in reality it makes NO DIFFERENCE.
Maybe I'm missing it, I dunno. Just struck a raw nerve.
This is a new thread and I have no idea what the other S15 import thread has to do with this. I don't understand why you are getting so angry about a simple debate like this.
I am not touting that it's wrong to NOT buy American, I am just debating why not to buy American now and this is coming from me (a guy that doesn't even own an American car at this time.)
Pole Position
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 200
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From: CT
Isn't Capitalism an American value? If a business has a better product that more people want, they should succeed over the lesser ones.
Buying Americanp-made products just for the sake of patriotism isn't going to help this country in the long run, as we'd encourage the production of inferior products and will lose competitivy in the long run.
I personally doubt that the demise of GM or Ford would create such a backlash, after all there has been no backlash over Japanese televisions, Chinese cellphones, etc. These products used to be US-made.
As for GM and Ford themselves, they'll break down into several companies rather than go out of business altogether.
Buying Americanp-made products just for the sake of patriotism isn't going to help this country in the long run, as we'd encourage the production of inferior products and will lose competitivy in the long run.
I personally doubt that the demise of GM or Ford would create such a backlash, after all there has been no backlash over Japanese televisions, Chinese cellphones, etc. These products used to be US-made.
As for GM and Ford themselves, they'll break down into several companies rather than go out of business altogether.
Thread Starter
Lexus Test Driver
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,423
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From: CA
Another article about buying American (click on the link to the article and the bargraph table - took it from the Autospies Newsletter):
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll...605120414/1148
New ads: Buy from Big 3, save U.S. jobs
Ford gives money to auto retirees' campaign; 'What you drive, drives America,' ads say.
David Shepardson / Detroit News Washington Bureau
WASHINGTON -- A new call to buy "Buy American" rang out Thursday as a Ford Motor Co.-backed group launched an ad campaign designed to convince U.S. consumers to support the struggling domestic auto industry.
The campaign levels a direct shot at Asian automakers, which have been spending millions of dollars touting their positive impact on America's economy and its communities in recent ads.
The new television, print and Internet ads declare, "What you drive, drives America," and contend the Big Three play a far more important role in the U.S. economy than Toyota Motor Corp. and Honda Motor Co.
"Seems like every automaker these days claims their cars are 'Made in America.' But the truth is, U.S. automakers still employ 8 out of every 10 autoworkers. Four times more than all the automakers from Japan, Korea and Europe combined," says one ad delivered by an actor resembling an archetypical burly autoworker.
The television ads will run mostly in Washington, D.C., and Metro Detroit.
The $1 million campaign is being organized by the Level Field Institute, a group founded by retired Ford, GM and Chrysler workers. The group wouldn't identify which companies have funded the effort, but Ford spokesman Mike Moran confirmed the Dearborn automaker had provided financial support for the group. GM and Chrysler have not provided any financing, but support the effort.
"I'm a little offended with Toyota's 'We're American' campaign," said Jason Vines, head of communications for the Chrysler Group. "They're not. They are a Japanese car company. Baseball, hot dogs and Toyota? Sorry, it doesn't ring a bell."
Moving to reverse losses, Detroit automakers are undertaking major downsizing moves. At GM and Ford that includes 60,000 planned job cuts and more than 20 plant closings across North America.
The campaign argues that even with the cuts, Ford, GM and Chrysler still employ far more U.S. workers.
The Level Field group estimated that 400,000 U.S. autoworkers support about 4 million other jobs, compared with about 860,000 jobs from Asian automakers.
Ford, for example, will directly employ 110,000 people in the United States versus 103,000 for foreign automakers.
"Our increasingly global economy makes defining 'Made in America' more difficult. But we believe it still matters," said Jim Doyle, president of the Level Field Institute.
Gerald Meyers, a former chairman of Detroit-based American Motors Corp. and business professor at the University of Michigan, said the campaign likely won't convince people to buy American.
The problem, he said, is how do consumers buy a truly American car, when a GM vehicle might be assembled in Mexico and a Honda in Ohio.
"Where a car is built is a very fuzzy thing," Meyers said. "At one point, Joe Sixpack had to drive an American car. That's simply diminished today. People with a scintilla of sophistication will just buy what fits their lifestyle."
Chrysler's Vines said the heritage of a company still matters, even in a global economy.
"We have to earn the trust of the American people. We sure hope that Americans are looking at us when they look to buy a new car, but it's our job to sell them the car," he said. "Hey look at the home team a little bit. We are providing a lot of jobs."
Tim MacCarthy, president and CEO of the Association of International Automobile Manufacturers -- the lobbying group that represents Toyota, Honda and Nissan Motor Co. among other companies -- called the group "the flat earth society."
President Bush "said it best when he said they should build relevant vehicles," he said. "Lee Iacocca was right when he said if we want to sell in America, we should build here and we took him at his word. Over 60 percent of the vehicles we build are made here and that number is increasing."
The combined U.S. market share of GM, Ford and Chrysler has fallen to a new low of 55 percent this year.
President Bush is to meet with the CEOs of Detroit's automakers Thursday at the White House, likely a day before the U.S. House is set to vote on a bill to eventually raise fuel economy standards for passenger cars.
MacCarthy said the international automakers are stepping up their lobbying and communication to let people know how much they provide to the U.S. economy. "We're out telling our own story, we're not out to badmouth GM, Ford and Chrysler."
Martha Voss, a Toyota spokeswoman, didn't offer much comment on the campaign but took exception to some of the group's figures.
"We admire the traditional American auto companies and what they stand for. They are the big guys. We would certainly never take away from that," Voss said. But she said the company is proud of the 30,000 people who work for the company in the United States and plans to add to that figure.
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll...605120414/1148
New ads: Buy from Big 3, save U.S. jobs
Ford gives money to auto retirees' campaign; 'What you drive, drives America,' ads say.
David Shepardson / Detroit News Washington Bureau
WASHINGTON -- A new call to buy "Buy American" rang out Thursday as a Ford Motor Co.-backed group launched an ad campaign designed to convince U.S. consumers to support the struggling domestic auto industry.
The campaign levels a direct shot at Asian automakers, which have been spending millions of dollars touting their positive impact on America's economy and its communities in recent ads.
The new television, print and Internet ads declare, "What you drive, drives America," and contend the Big Three play a far more important role in the U.S. economy than Toyota Motor Corp. and Honda Motor Co.
"Seems like every automaker these days claims their cars are 'Made in America.' But the truth is, U.S. automakers still employ 8 out of every 10 autoworkers. Four times more than all the automakers from Japan, Korea and Europe combined," says one ad delivered by an actor resembling an archetypical burly autoworker.
The television ads will run mostly in Washington, D.C., and Metro Detroit.
The $1 million campaign is being organized by the Level Field Institute, a group founded by retired Ford, GM and Chrysler workers. The group wouldn't identify which companies have funded the effort, but Ford spokesman Mike Moran confirmed the Dearborn automaker had provided financial support for the group. GM and Chrysler have not provided any financing, but support the effort.
"I'm a little offended with Toyota's 'We're American' campaign," said Jason Vines, head of communications for the Chrysler Group. "They're not. They are a Japanese car company. Baseball, hot dogs and Toyota? Sorry, it doesn't ring a bell."
Moving to reverse losses, Detroit automakers are undertaking major downsizing moves. At GM and Ford that includes 60,000 planned job cuts and more than 20 plant closings across North America.
The campaign argues that even with the cuts, Ford, GM and Chrysler still employ far more U.S. workers.
The Level Field group estimated that 400,000 U.S. autoworkers support about 4 million other jobs, compared with about 860,000 jobs from Asian automakers.
Ford, for example, will directly employ 110,000 people in the United States versus 103,000 for foreign automakers.
"Our increasingly global economy makes defining 'Made in America' more difficult. But we believe it still matters," said Jim Doyle, president of the Level Field Institute.
Gerald Meyers, a former chairman of Detroit-based American Motors Corp. and business professor at the University of Michigan, said the campaign likely won't convince people to buy American.
The problem, he said, is how do consumers buy a truly American car, when a GM vehicle might be assembled in Mexico and a Honda in Ohio.
"Where a car is built is a very fuzzy thing," Meyers said. "At one point, Joe Sixpack had to drive an American car. That's simply diminished today. People with a scintilla of sophistication will just buy what fits their lifestyle."
Chrysler's Vines said the heritage of a company still matters, even in a global economy.
"We have to earn the trust of the American people. We sure hope that Americans are looking at us when they look to buy a new car, but it's our job to sell them the car," he said. "Hey look at the home team a little bit. We are providing a lot of jobs."
Tim MacCarthy, president and CEO of the Association of International Automobile Manufacturers -- the lobbying group that represents Toyota, Honda and Nissan Motor Co. among other companies -- called the group "the flat earth society."
President Bush "said it best when he said they should build relevant vehicles," he said. "Lee Iacocca was right when he said if we want to sell in America, we should build here and we took him at his word. Over 60 percent of the vehicles we build are made here and that number is increasing."
The combined U.S. market share of GM, Ford and Chrysler has fallen to a new low of 55 percent this year.
President Bush is to meet with the CEOs of Detroit's automakers Thursday at the White House, likely a day before the U.S. House is set to vote on a bill to eventually raise fuel economy standards for passenger cars.
MacCarthy said the international automakers are stepping up their lobbying and communication to let people know how much they provide to the U.S. economy. "We're out telling our own story, we're not out to badmouth GM, Ford and Chrysler."
Martha Voss, a Toyota spokeswoman, didn't offer much comment on the campaign but took exception to some of the group's figures.
"We admire the traditional American auto companies and what they stand for. They are the big guys. We would certainly never take away from that," Voss said. But she said the company is proud of the 30,000 people who work for the company in the United States and plans to add to that figure.
Last edited by lexguynj; May 18, 2006 at 08:08 PM.
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If they build cars people will CHOOSE over the competiton, they will come. So far, they haven't done that is most all segments.
Would u buy a Malibu over a Camry or Accord? Hell no
Impala over a Avalon or the new Kia? Hell no
Cobalt over Civic or Corolla? Hell no
F-150 over Tundra or Titan? Hell yes.
Would u buy a Malibu over a Camry or Accord? Hell no
Impala over a Avalon or the new Kia? Hell no
Cobalt over Civic or Corolla? Hell no
F-150 over Tundra or Titan? Hell yes.
Thread Starter
Lexus Test Driver
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,423
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From: CA
Here's another take on this subject and how the lines are not as clear as American Companies would like us to see (also taken from the Autospies Newsletter):
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll...57/1148/AUTO01
Who gets your car dollar? Depends on your point of view
In the "who's more American" sweepstakes, this much is indisputable:
Detroit's automakers and suppliers employ vastly more Americans than their foreign rivals do.
Detroit's No. 3, the Chrysler Group, may employ Americans, produce American brands and sell them mostly in North America, but it's German-owned.
Detroit's hottest new midsize sedan, the Ford Fusion, is built in Mexico, the Chrysler Crossfire comes from Germany and General Motors Corp.'s Chevrolet Aveo hails from South Korea. But they're American models.
Toyota, Honda and Nissan, the leading creators of automotive jobs in the United States and Canada over the past five years or so, are not American companies -- and never will be. Their headquarters are not here. Their CEOs don't live here. Most of their shareholders aren't here.
Catching the Detroit pitch
Why is any of that debatable?
The Level Field Institute, a creation of retirees from Detroit's traditional automakers that is modestly supported by Ford, wants Americans to understand the importance of Detroit's automakers and their suppliers to the American economy and how some foreign-owned rivals are bigger American job creators than others.
"It is, in the end, a buy Big Three pitch," concedes Jim Doyle, president of Level Field. "But it's also a buy Honda over a Hyundai message." Among foreign automakers, "Honda has got the highest number of American employees per car. If you can convince someone who's going to buy a Hyundai to buy a Honda, jobs are served."
OK. But extend the logic.
Does buying a Honda built in Ohio by non-union labor trump buying a Ford Fusion from Mexico? Solidarity House wouldn't think so, even if American jobs are created.
Economic self-interest rules
Is a BMW SUV from South Carolina more politically correct than a Land Rover from the U.K.? Land Rover parent Ford gets the profit, but America gets the BMW jobs.
Would a Texas-built Toyota Tundra, coming soon, be more preferable to Detroit diehards than a Canadian-built Chevy pickup? Don't answer that.
As the global auto industry's tentacles reach deeper into the lives of every American and muddle a commercial landscape that few outside the industry pay much heed, two things are clear:
First, economic choices have consequences. Just as buying cheaper steaks at Costco helps drive your neighborhood butcher out of business, what you drive from the showroom impacts your local economy. The only question: Do you care?
Second, economic choices are selfish. If you buy Detroit because you live in the Midwest (and get a discount), that's self-interest. If getting the best minivan (the Honda Odyssey) trumps Detroit's automakers, that's self-interest, too.
Waving the flag or hoisting the union banner to sell cars and trucks is a lame argument when the products can -- and often do -- stand on their own. For the Detroit companies, it says desperation. For the foreign-owned, it smacks of political positioning and good ol' deception.
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll...57/1148/AUTO01
Who gets your car dollar? Depends on your point of view
In the "who's more American" sweepstakes, this much is indisputable:
Detroit's automakers and suppliers employ vastly more Americans than their foreign rivals do.
Detroit's No. 3, the Chrysler Group, may employ Americans, produce American brands and sell them mostly in North America, but it's German-owned.
Detroit's hottest new midsize sedan, the Ford Fusion, is built in Mexico, the Chrysler Crossfire comes from Germany and General Motors Corp.'s Chevrolet Aveo hails from South Korea. But they're American models.
Toyota, Honda and Nissan, the leading creators of automotive jobs in the United States and Canada over the past five years or so, are not American companies -- and never will be. Their headquarters are not here. Their CEOs don't live here. Most of their shareholders aren't here.
Catching the Detroit pitch
Why is any of that debatable?
The Level Field Institute, a creation of retirees from Detroit's traditional automakers that is modestly supported by Ford, wants Americans to understand the importance of Detroit's automakers and their suppliers to the American economy and how some foreign-owned rivals are bigger American job creators than others.
"It is, in the end, a buy Big Three pitch," concedes Jim Doyle, president of Level Field. "But it's also a buy Honda over a Hyundai message." Among foreign automakers, "Honda has got the highest number of American employees per car. If you can convince someone who's going to buy a Hyundai to buy a Honda, jobs are served."
OK. But extend the logic.
Does buying a Honda built in Ohio by non-union labor trump buying a Ford Fusion from Mexico? Solidarity House wouldn't think so, even if American jobs are created.
Economic self-interest rules
Is a BMW SUV from South Carolina more politically correct than a Land Rover from the U.K.? Land Rover parent Ford gets the profit, but America gets the BMW jobs.
Would a Texas-built Toyota Tundra, coming soon, be more preferable to Detroit diehards than a Canadian-built Chevy pickup? Don't answer that.
As the global auto industry's tentacles reach deeper into the lives of every American and muddle a commercial landscape that few outside the industry pay much heed, two things are clear:
First, economic choices have consequences. Just as buying cheaper steaks at Costco helps drive your neighborhood butcher out of business, what you drive from the showroom impacts your local economy. The only question: Do you care?
Second, economic choices are selfish. If you buy Detroit because you live in the Midwest (and get a discount), that's self-interest. If getting the best minivan (the Honda Odyssey) trumps Detroit's automakers, that's self-interest, too.
Waving the flag or hoisting the union banner to sell cars and trucks is a lame argument when the products can -- and often do -- stand on their own. For the Detroit companies, it says desperation. For the foreign-owned, it smacks of political positioning and good ol' deception.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Originally Posted by lexguynj
Here's another take on this subject and how the lines are not as clear as American Companies would like us to see:
http://www.autospies.com/article/ind...9&categoryId=1
Who gets your car dollar? Depends on your point of view
In the "who's more American" sweepstakes, this much is indisputable:
Detroit's automakers and suppliers employ vastly more Americans than their foreign rivals do.
Detroit's No. 3, the Chrysler Group, may employ Americans, produce American brands and sell them mostly in North America, but it's German-owned.
Detroit's hottest new midsize sedan, the Ford Fusion, is built in Mexico, the Chrysler Crossfire comes from Germany and General Motors Corp.'s Chevrolet Aveo hails from South Korea. But they're American models.
Toyota, Honda and Nissan, the leading creators of automotive jobs in the United States and Canada over the past five years or so, are not American companies -- and never will be. Their headquarters are not here. Their CEOs don't live here. Most of their shareholders aren't here.
Catching the Detroit pitch
Why is any of that debatable?
The Level Field Institute, a creation of retirees from Detroit's traditional automakers that is modestly supported by Ford, wants Americans to understand the importance of Detroit's automakers and their suppliers to the American economy and how some foreign-owned rivals are bigger American job creators than others.
"It is, in the end, a buy Big Three pitch," concedes Jim Doyle, president of Level Field. "But it's also a buy Honda over a Hyundai message." Among foreign automakers, "Honda has got the highest number of American employees per car. If you can convince someone who's going to buy a Hyundai to buy a Honda, jobs are served."
OK. But extend the logic.
Does buying a Honda built in Ohio by non-union labor trump buying a Ford Fusion from Mexico? Solidarity House wouldn't think so, even if American jobs are created.
Economic self-interest rules
Is a BMW SUV from South Carolina more politically correct than a Land Rover from the U.K.? Land Rover parent Ford gets the profit, but America gets the BMW jobs.
Would a Texas-built Toyota Tundra, coming soon, be more preferable to Detroit diehards than a Canadian-built Chevy pickup? Don't answer that.
As the global auto industry's tentacles reach deeper into the lives of every American and muddle a commercial landscape that few outside the industry pay much heed, two things are clear:
First, economic choices have consequences. Just as buying cheaper steaks at Costco helps drive your neighborhood butcher out of business, what you drive from the showroom impacts your local economy. The only question: Do you care?
Second, economic choices are selfish. If you buy Detroit because you live in the Midwest (and get a discount), that's self-interest. If getting the best minivan (the Honda Odyssey) trumps Detroit's automakers, that's self-interest, too.
Waving the flag or hoisting the union banner to sell cars and trucks is a lame argument when the products can -- and often do -- stand on their own. For the Detroit companies, it says desperation. For the foreign-owned, it smacks of political positioning and good ol' deception.
http://www.autospies.com/article/ind...9&categoryId=1
Who gets your car dollar? Depends on your point of view
In the "who's more American" sweepstakes, this much is indisputable:
Detroit's automakers and suppliers employ vastly more Americans than their foreign rivals do.
Detroit's No. 3, the Chrysler Group, may employ Americans, produce American brands and sell them mostly in North America, but it's German-owned.
Detroit's hottest new midsize sedan, the Ford Fusion, is built in Mexico, the Chrysler Crossfire comes from Germany and General Motors Corp.'s Chevrolet Aveo hails from South Korea. But they're American models.
Toyota, Honda and Nissan, the leading creators of automotive jobs in the United States and Canada over the past five years or so, are not American companies -- and never will be. Their headquarters are not here. Their CEOs don't live here. Most of their shareholders aren't here.
Catching the Detroit pitch
Why is any of that debatable?
The Level Field Institute, a creation of retirees from Detroit's traditional automakers that is modestly supported by Ford, wants Americans to understand the importance of Detroit's automakers and their suppliers to the American economy and how some foreign-owned rivals are bigger American job creators than others.
"It is, in the end, a buy Big Three pitch," concedes Jim Doyle, president of Level Field. "But it's also a buy Honda over a Hyundai message." Among foreign automakers, "Honda has got the highest number of American employees per car. If you can convince someone who's going to buy a Hyundai to buy a Honda, jobs are served."
OK. But extend the logic.
Does buying a Honda built in Ohio by non-union labor trump buying a Ford Fusion from Mexico? Solidarity House wouldn't think so, even if American jobs are created.
Economic self-interest rules
Is a BMW SUV from South Carolina more politically correct than a Land Rover from the U.K.? Land Rover parent Ford gets the profit, but America gets the BMW jobs.
Would a Texas-built Toyota Tundra, coming soon, be more preferable to Detroit diehards than a Canadian-built Chevy pickup? Don't answer that.
As the global auto industry's tentacles reach deeper into the lives of every American and muddle a commercial landscape that few outside the industry pay much heed, two things are clear:
First, economic choices have consequences. Just as buying cheaper steaks at Costco helps drive your neighborhood butcher out of business, what you drive from the showroom impacts your local economy. The only question: Do you care?
Second, economic choices are selfish. If you buy Detroit because you live in the Midwest (and get a discount), that's self-interest. If getting the best minivan (the Honda Odyssey) trumps Detroit's automakers, that's self-interest, too.
Waving the flag or hoisting the union banner to sell cars and trucks is a lame argument when the products can -- and often do -- stand on their own. For the Detroit companies, it says desperation. For the foreign-owned, it smacks of political positioning and good ol' deception.
I want to say I remember them using this back in the very early 1990s, BUY AMERICAN, it was news worthy and all.
It might not work this time.
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