C'mon guys look at it this way, we should give credit for what these guys are coming out with(GM, DCX, & BMW)........and this adds to hybrid innovations list for years to come. Then you know there is always that "but"......meaning they need 3 major automotive corporations to come up with something innovative, but also in a short and cost effective manner, just to keep up with the competition(Toyota)? Next, this has not been tested in the "real world" meaing the rest of us daily drivers, therefore let's wait and see the recall reports come flowing in, just a matter of time, ....it's a possibility considering all 3 companies' history track report with electircal system failure, and other defects, etc.....And really do you think Toyota for as long as they have been in the game, really brought out their "ultimate artillery" when it comes to hybrid systems?......Obvious answer is no, not at all. With only one solid competitor to date(Honda) why burn themselves out with the best of what Toyota has in the early hybrid stages? I betcha' my pink slip Toyota is giving credit for what the rivals have come out with,..."it's good, but not good enough." It may look fine and dandy on paper boys.....but let's see what it does in the real world. Let's remember Toyota is about 9 years ahead in hybrid technology, what they will pull out next from the "hybrid innovation shelf" will bring the rest of the rivals back to the drawing board... . ......and the funny thing is it will start with the next gen Toyota Prius all over again!...

 

But is it possible that other car manufacturers have decided that the cost/benefit of a hybrid (with current technologies) does not make sense? I seem to remember reading that Toyota does not make much cash on each hybrid. That said, we all know that with the increased cost to the consumer of the product, payback during the lifetime of the car is probably not going to happen. So if I was an engineer (crap, I am), I would be scratching my head saying "If we can't make money on this and the benefit to the consumer is negligible, then why are we doing it?"

 

small profits at first, but when the cost goes down they will make more profits out of it, and it will then trickle down to the consumer

 

actually, mark my words - I will be the first to give them credit, once they actually have product to sell, and not PR's.

 

it is quite possible that some manufacturers dont see profits in Hybrids - I personally believe it is very shortsighted, as when cost of technology goes down, very few cars wont be hybrids of some sort. 10 years from now, I see majority of cars being hybrids.

As to the cost to the consumer, thats open to discussion as you can save money buying 23k Prius over 16k Corolla according to research, and it will be only more true for Camry where price difference is extremly small - in fact, when you factor in tax credit, you SAVE $1,500 with Camry Hybrid when compared to 4cly XLE, while being much faster vehicle getting much better mpg (and more equipment). Savings over V6 version are over $4k with same equipment.

As to the Lexus hybrids... do you save money buying 550i over 530i? :-).

As to the Toyota making profits - despite pouring billions into hybrid research, and selling 300,000 hybrids per year, Toyota posts huge and rising profits every quarter. So yes, they got to be doing it right :-).
However, initial investment is huge, which is why Toyota holds majority of Hybrid market right now...

 

It depends. I too am curious if the hybrid route will continue. You can buy into my argument that many auto manufacturers do not see the value in them (check out what the Jetta TDI did for autoweek), or the other side where the technology will just get better and everyone should jump on the band wagon now.

You have to admit, it is a major marketing trick for Toyota right now. Unfortunately one that the US government is going to put the brakes on when Toyota sells its 60,001 hybrid (counts starting at 1 on Jan 2006). When that tax credit goes away, the argument for purchasing a hybrid really takes a crap.

But you have to explain two comments (and I swear spwolf, I'm not trying to be cocky here, I just didn't understand)
1. How do you save money buying the $23K Prius over the $16K Corolla
2. "As to the Lexus hybrids... do you save money buying 550i over 530i? :-)." I don't get this

 

1. Do the equipment the Prius has over the Corolla have any value to the extra cost of the vehicle
2. Is the extra performance of 550i worth it over the 530i, when in the end there will be no money saved from any direction

 

1. How do you save money with Prius over Corolla - according to CR you save $500 over 5 years, and also get better, larger and more equipped vehicle. Prius has a lot more space than Corolla btw. You save it by getting better resale value, lesser fuel costs and less maintainance costs (brakes need changing 3x less, no belts to change, maintainance is done only on small 1.5l engine/smaller costs).
2. Lexus hybrids have large performance benefits over their less engine rivals, same as getting an V8 engine instead of V6. Do you save money when you buy 550i instead of 530i? You dont.... But with GS450h you do, and get superior performance.

Reason I say hybrids will be in everything, that includes diesels as well. Base concept of hybrid is free power basically - recapture and use energy that is usually lost at wheels (cruising, braking, slowing). It can be applied to any engine at cost. So when costs go down, they will be applied to diesels (which also cost a lot more than gas engines). BTW, thats the only test that showed TDI getting better than Prius - CR's own test showed 5-6 mpg advantage over TDI overall, around 4mpg at highway and 10-20mpg in the city.

Just look at Camry Hybrid pricing already - it is awesome value, and I believe they want to sell huge amounts of it based on the pricing - which is cheaper than 4cly. So affordable hybrids are already here. It will be funny when mags try to compare the cost savings of Camry Hybrid, heh.

 

Well, I disagree about the Corolla. It would be interesting to actually run the numbers - but something tells me the Corolla is still going to come out ahead in the long run.

The GS450h is priced higher than the GS430, and much higher than the GS300 - it is the best performing of all three and so it should cost more. It is also cheaper than the 550, but I'll wager you right now that it can't out accelerate, brake, or handle a 550. I'm very curious to see a comparison test with the 550 and GS450h to see who is right*. I will tell you that the GS450h gets much better gas mileage despite being 300+ lbs heavier But at least the 550 has a trunk


*I know what both Lexus and BMW claim their cars will do, I also know that Lexus is normally agressive with their 0-60 times and BMW is conservative. I also know that a side by side comparison is the only way to really tell.

 

What is there to agree or dissagree? Its research done by CR, based on facts... How do you not agree with it? lol.

Now what does that have to do with 550i performance vs GS450h? Quite curious. Its interesting how badly 330i gets beaten with IS350's agressive 0-60 numbers, in real life too... But is that really topic of this discussion? I am pretty sure that GS450h will out-accelerate 550i especially at speed, easily, but again thats for some other thread.

 

Really? Can you point me to the article? Cause whatever they write is a fact right? Sure would like to see the article however. Personally, most research I have read shows that not only are you looking at 100K+ to recoup the extra cost of the hybrid, when you take into account the energy to produce and dispose of the hybrid, it makes zero financial sense.

and I quote "Do you save money when you buy 550i instead of 530i? You dont.... But with GS450h you do, and get superior performance" - did I misunderstand? Or were you referring to the 530? BTW, the 335 is going to spank the IS ... but that's another thread too

 

Yes, but a 550 has an enormous performance advantage over a 530. The RX400H and GS450H doesn't have nearly as large a performance edge over their respective RX350 and GS350 versions. As you will point out, there are certain areas where the hybrid versions do better, but for all intents and purpose, the performance numbers are within about 0.3 seconds or less of each other compared to the difference between 550 and 530.

 

And for the 10,000 time its not about saving money its about saving gas...

 

sure they do... There will be huge difference in performance between GS350 and GS450h - and GS350 doesnt exist yet, it is GS300 actually, with much larger difference. 0-60 means nothing, it is at speed performance than GS450h and RX400h excel at.

And, they save gas :-).

 

There were few threads about it at CL, please search. If you want to discuss things, I cant be one researching everything for you.