I agree. And because we live in SoCal..car culture capital of the world...no doubt in my mind there are more Lexus & Infiniti's sold here than any other geographic location, the new M s i've seen are M35 Sport packages. I've only seen on M45 on the road...and it was driven by a Nissan North America employee w/their California Manufacturer 562 plates driving from Costa Mesa Infiniti to their regional office just up the road from my work in Costa Mesa.

 

But what does Ward's actually look for in an engine? Is it price, power, fuel economy, refinement, quality, durability, or what? If you actually read about each engine, it should be clear to see Ward's likes engines that are not that expensive, and engines that produce lots of power.

Reading more closely, it seems Wards looks at "crucial" engine characteristics of power; torque; noise, vibration and harshness (NVH). I don't see refinement or smoothness on the list, or fuel economy.

Funny, why then is the Ford 4.6L SOHC V-8 on the list, since Ward praises it for being available at a low price? Contradiction perhaps?

Here's another thing ... why is the DaimlerChrysler 5.7L Hemi Magnum OHV V-8 on the list? It's power numbers are overrated, the "Hemi" name is being used as a marketing gimmick more than anything else. Other than power, why is the Hemi honestly on the list? It does not have great refinement or fuel economy, although it may be a smooth engine from the sheer displacement of it.

Again, Ward's only tests certain things ... it does not test engines OVERALL.

Why is it that the 2JZ was never featured in Ward's, or even the UZ V8? Both engines from Toyota are legendary for a number of reasons. The UZ in it's current 4.3L form in Lexus sedans is supremely smooth and refined, has good fuel economy, and a very wide powerband, with lots of low end, as well as a seemingly endless high end. Compared to Nissan's 4.5L V8, where the Nissan engine's powerband starts to taper off near the high end, the Lexus 4.3L V8 miraculously keeps going on a very wide powerband.

Are you meaning to tell me that the VQ is a better engine than the 2JZ or even the UZ?

In conclusion, who cares about Ward's. On top of power, noise, vibration, and harshness, why isn't fuel economy, refinement, smoothness/quiet operation tested?

When talking about good engines OVERALL, NOT just the characteristic Ward's likes to test, I dare say there Toyota's engines are consistently up there at the top as overall well balanced engines. Toyota engines have a very nice, and unique balance of power, refinement, fuel economy, quality/durability, and smoothness. The new GR V6 engines will take this to a new level.

EDIT: Toyota and Honda engines consistently rank at the top for low emissions engines, Nissan's engines on the other hand are not nearly as low on emissions as Toyota or Honda engines.

 

I beg to differ ... I've been in several VQ powered cars, and the Toyota MZ 3.3L clearly and disctinctly beats the VQ in refinement and smoothness. The VQ is a little rough and noisy, a sign that the engine is being pushed past it's optimal balance. I've been in a VQ Maxima, Nissan Quest ... and I won't even go into the G35, in which the VQ is actually quite noisy and rough.

Are you willing to back up those VQ figures?

Directly from Infiniti's website, the VQ (in 298HP trim) with a manual tranny, makes 298HP @ 6,400 RPM and 260 lb-ft @ 4,800 RPM. It also gets 19/26 EPA mileage. Keep in mind that this is the manual tranny. The auto G35 makes 280HP @ 6,200 RPM and 270 lb-ft @ 4,800 RPM. It gets 18/26 EPA mileage.

Frankly, for a V6 sedan, these fuel economy figures are pretty bad.

Let's compare this to the 2005 Avalon ... which weighs *about* the same as a G35. It makes 280HP @ 6200 RPM, 260 lb-ft @ 4700 RPM .... while being a supremely smooth and refined engine, being ULEV, and not to mention getting 22/31 EPA mileage. I'd say the VQ loses this round. Toyota with it's GR engines has several tricks up it's sleeve, with direct injection and dual VVT-i being the two big ones.

Direct Injection is not even used on the Avalon's GR, but will be seen on the new IS, both the 250 and 350, and seeing as the IS is a G35 competitor, it will make for a good comparison. The IS 350 is said to push even more power than the Avalon while having the same or even better fuel economy.

Just out of curiosity, a 2005 Lexus LS makes 290 hp @ 5,600 rpm, 320 lb-ft @ 3,400 rpm, while achieving 18/25 EPA mileage, being a considerably heavier car than the G35, and did I mention the Lexus 4.3l V8 is ULEV? Infiniti does not even list the VQ emissions on it's site. How convenient

 

this thread is wearing me out tryin to keep up

 

Right ... comparing an NA block to a TT block, real fair

The VQ32DETT is made for one thing ... and one thing only ... power. Durability and reliability have yet to be seen .... but one thing is certain, this will not be a well balanced engine overall. It won't touch the GR block in smoothness, refinement, or fuel economy, but then, these are two totally different segments that we're comparing, so why bother?

 

Your right, it is still uncertain what the GT-R will be. I honestly dont think it will be a nissan in the US since nissan should already know that a car with a 50k price tag wont sell as a nissan as the toyota supra did not sell.

The RL sells below expectations because it has nothing special to offer. Sure, it has SHAWD or whatever, but the Nissan fuga (m35 awd) outhandled it in the comparison done it japan. Also, marketing is just bad for the car. Marketing for the A8 is also non-existent. As most people know, marketing is everything if you expect to sell an unknown product.

And yes the market is very saturated. The older m45 did NOT sell. With the introduction of the new m35/45, infiniti managed to break into this very saturated and competitive segment. Also, marketing is very good with this car. Infiniti shows that even though the car was a disaster, it did a complete turn around and made it a selling car exceeding peoples expectations of the car.

To say the Q45 wont sell is just stupid. You cant say that as you dont know what the next generation q45 will be like. If current and future infiniti m45 owners are satisfied with their Infiniti purchase, what makes you think they wont want to upgrade to a better infiniti car? Do you really think most people started off buying a 7 series, LS or S class? Probably not...they started with the lower model cars and worked their way up. The LS sells very well because it has a base price of around 56k. That is not too expensive compared to a loaded GS or even M45. People rarely get the ultimate luxury package that would equate the car price to barely reaching 70k. I know this is rare, because my friend's former co-worker is the sales manager of vista lexus. And even with the LS barely reaching 70k, its still well below the base price of an S class or 7 series, which equates value. WIth the upcoming longer wheel based LS, lets see if it will actually get the sales the LS currently has as the price will be significantly higher. If this car doesnt impress, it wont sell either. Likely, the upcoming version with the current wheel base will still sell as the price wont be too high..probably similar in its current pricing. The current LS in its first introduction had alot of good marketing. Good commercials to show what its all about, etc. If the Q45 comes out to be more impressive in overall value compared to an s class, 7 series, or LS and has alot of good marketing, I'm sure it will sell decently. Of course, not as much as a 7 series or s class(as prestige DOES matter in the 70k + category, but it does have a chance given the circumstances.

Like i said, this redesign is currently just a rumor, so infiniti still has a few years to make the infiniti name more solid and well-known.

 

Arguably.....Maybe ? Your insurance company (and employer) may have statistics on this. I don't have the exact numbers, but an enormous number of high-priced cars are sold in this Washington, D.C. area because of the huge amount of money here, the extremely low unemployment rate (about 2% in my county...a county with a larger population than a number of STATES), the recession-resistant economy, the Federal Government, the large number of highly-paid technology jobs, highly-paid foreign diplomats and their staffs, and the large number of high-quality facilities in this area to sell and service them. We probably have more luxury and premium-nameplate cars here per square mile that anywhere else in the country....maybe Manhattan and all its posh hotels excepted.

If you ever come to the D.C. area you will see what I am talking about....as I will if I come to your part of the woods in L.A.

Now......you may be correct about the SoCal numbers , but if so, it is because SoCal encompasses a larger area and more people. We have about 5-6 million people in this metro area....SoCal probably has about twice as many. It also ranks in the traffic gridlock statistics. The L.A. region ranks first nationally in the number of hours lost sitting still in traffic every year (93)...we rank second (67)......in spite of the Metro Subway system here.

So I guess the best way to compare your area and mine is that your area has both cars and a car culture...and my area has cars, period.

 

Do you really want to go there?

The population obviously has increased from 2 years ago but we will use Census 2003 data for comparison. If we just count one county in SoCal alone...Los Angeles County, population for the whole county is 9.8 million The greater Los Angeles Area including Orange, Riverside, San Bernardino County (Not including Santa Barbara, San Diego & Kern Counties) is 6.4 million alone. This is just population. I can't find a list per registered vehicles in a geographical area. When I do find it, I will definitely post it. To my knowledge theres no such thing as a US Census bureau for car registration w/info you can extrapolate per nameplate, price, median income and etc etc etc.

US Census Data 2003:
Riverside: 1.7 Million
San Bernardino: 1.8 Million
Orange: 2.9 Million
Los Angeles: 9.8 Million

Remember this?
http://subscribers.wardsauto.com/fil...ler500List.pdf

5 CA dealers are listed in the top 10 in the country. That should be a clear indicator of what types of cars are sold. The #2 listed dealership is Fletcher Jones MBZ in Newport Beach. There are more exotic car dealerships in our region than any other place in the world. There's even a Ferarri/Maserati dealership (Fer/Mas of Orange County) just around the corner from my work. I've been to DC many times. I highly doubt they have as many or more exotic car sales in one metro area. LA County alone has nearly 10 million in population. FYI, Longo Lexus recently beat out JM Lexus as #1 Lexus Sales in the United States.

And just for comparison's sake and to keep it on topic:

# of franchises listed on Ward's Dealer 500 list:

Lexus: 28
Infiniti: 2

Toyota: 71
Nissan: 17

Clearly, Lexus > Infiniti and Toyota > Nissan. Hell even Lexus > Nissan. Go figure.

 

about as fair as comparing non existant cars to currently existing ones. And technically speaking theyre the same block, remember letter designations directly relates to the block specified. Of course one would have forged low compression internals while the other has high compresion internals.

Flipside I have the same issue of motor trend as you do.

I like how you failed to note several key notes of that test. Mainly interior space, and cargo capacity as well. And yes the M45 is also taller car then the GS. Your right the car is only marginally larger then the GS430, but thats a mute point considering how the M45 is also only margilly heavier then the GS430. And for the record if you want to get into mag racing since it seems what some do best here. The 335 hp netted .4 tenths of a second faster in the 1/4 then the 300 hp from GS430. Not 2 double the difference you stated. And it trapped a significantly 3.2 mph higher trap speed while at it too.

But accelaration is not the only department where the Infinity M45 outperformed the GS430, it outperformed the GS430 in EVERY SINGLE ASPECT OF PERFORMANCE DRIVING! Lets see the heavier and bulkier Infinity M45, outslalomed the GS430, out gripped the GS430, and this is crucial now, it also OUT BRAKED the GS430, by 15 feet from 60 mph. Thats slightly more then a car lenght difference a significant difference, it could be the difference between a near miss and a hit. And it just plain killed the car in the figure 8 test, a combination that tests the cars braking accelaration and grip and transition movements into one.

And it did this with another point you conveniently forgot to bring up, a WHOPPING $13,080 dollar difference with price as tested.

The nail on the coffin why Id never get a GS430, is the retared nanny electronic collision system nearly impossible to modulate the car properly. This system at the most needs to have a customization option or at the very least severely fine tuned. This is what drives me nuts about Lexus and Toyota they make an awesome car then totally ruin it with a stupid *** feature or design flaw. In the GS430 the Orwellian nanny system. 10 years ago in the SC300, with a power robbing, slow shifting pos automatic tranny, that totally kills response of the car if let to govern itself.

My point is simple, neither car is superior then the other, and some members here do have a biased outlook of "toyota is better then nissan because I say so." Nissan generally speaking do have higher performing vehicles Its a true statement going from almost all competing models. Camry vs Altima, altima will stomp the camry in any competitive performance match same could be said for almost other competitive models. Even the Avalon with the spiffy new GR V6, which is supposedly better then the VQ (preposterous theres no where near enough data to conclude this. And to this day no GR has made more power then the VQ in stock trim at the very least people should wait for the new GR powered cars to come out to make such claims.) And with a healthy 20 hp difference on its main competitor Maxima has yet to post better performance numbers then the Maxima, it tested virtually same accelaration times, Avalon being a little slower then the Maxima in 0-60 and 1/4th, handling numbers also behind the maxima. well Ill give it credit that the Avalon did outbrake the maxima by about 5 feet, or.. front end of a car from 60-0 mph. And I take toyota hp claims with 2 grains of salt, Lexus has imo overatted hp figures before. Look at SC300 and SC400 dyno numbers for an example. 225 hp =150-160 whp? .
I hope it has stayed away from such practices, and I have no reason to believe lexus and toyota does this now but Ive yet to see dyno sheets of this new cars.

And my biggest pet peeve into an argument when someone brings prestige, jesus christ people this isnt Highschool anymore, if you seriously invest 60k+ or make a 60k plus decision due to what is the current insane concotion of what is the best status symbol, either that person has serious confidence issues or is compensating for an inedaquacy. I wish the general consencus was that its prestigious to have half a ton of excrement in your interior as air freshener, the idiots that buy into this whole search for a status symbol attitude would deserve the extreme discomfort that would ensue.

Yes Ill admit that Nissan in general has a less lustrous interior then Toyota, but NO that does not make it an inferior car to Toyota, both cars have their strengths and weaknesses. But you have to be blind if you cant see that generally speaking Toyota is still 2 bends behind Nissan in matching driving excitment in most of its vehicles offerings compared to Nissan only exception would be Tacoma Xrunner vs Frionter and avalon at least coming close to the Maxima.

Remember I own both a Toyota product and a Nissan Product and I like both brands EQUALLY!

 

The quest was a failure again. And recently there was a annoucement about the quest being revamped completely for 2006. They listened to people and the interior is going to the trash and it will have a whole new interior they siad.

I couldn't stand the quest interior either.

 

We also own a 2003 Altima 2.5 SL. The car has been flawless since we got it 2 years ago. It now has 20k of miles and hasn't had one problem yet with it. But comparing it to my G35 as well, you can definitely tell how cheap it is, with the interior to the doors closing. It is not built as well. Even the newer Altima I drove is better, but not near as good as my G.

 

The M35/M45 is selling like crazy. It blew the GS sales out of the water. Look at the numbers. Dunno where you got your info from but my dealer can't keep them in stock hardly. They are selling for MSRP at that.

 

Wards looks at the technology put into the engines. And the refinement, smoothness, power, and design. This all what makes it the best engine ever made. There was a article a while back that mentioned this.

It was mainly the technology. And for a 11 year old technology and still on the list, thats damn good. Nissan has always built great engines. Don't forget Toyota has had major issues with sludge in most of there engines. So Toyota does have problems.

 

Those are numbers. Not what people are actually getting. Let's just wait and see reports on what the Avalon actually gets on the road, not by numbers. The VQ in the G35 is very smooth. Go drive one that hasn't been abused like a new 05.

 

You may notice here when we make statements like that, we try to post the proof. Sorry mahn but you are way off. The M is selling 1,000 units less a month.

https://www.clublexus.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=161248