rai

The M may appear on the surface to be cheaper than the RL, but that's not the whole truth.

Take the M35 awd v RL both have 3.5L V6 and AWD, they are both aimed at the same market. You're saying the RL costs $7-8K more.

Well the RL has everything, nav, stereo, etc.. you name it, it has it (except rear seat entertainment). Add a few options, HIDs, NAV, heated seats, Bose stereo, etc.. And the M35 costs just the same as the RL.

It's nice you can get a de-contented M35 b/c you can't get a RL for $42K. However optioned the same they'll cost the same.

Also don't get me started on the "special" 3.0L for the GS. This is a crime. Well maybe they don't want the 3.5L to be faster than the LS or close to the GS430, so they neuter it. Let the rest of the world get the 3.5L let Acura and Infiniti get 3.5L, but the GS only gets a "special" engine 3.0L. BLA

biker

Just to nit pick - TSX has nothing to do with the other 3 - different platform - though the drivetrain is the same as many other Hondas.

jrock65

The TSX is based on the Honda Global Midsize Platform as well.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...40/ai_n7070864

"Based on the same global midsize sedan platform as the Honda Accord and Acura TSX and TL, the new RL represents vast improvements in steering, ride and handling."

mmarshall

OK..........I'll try not to "get you started", but I want to point out something. I don't think it is just marketing here. Don't forget, the new GS was designed with AWD in mind. What you say is true....Acura and Infiniti have 3.5L engines with AWD capability, but maybe it was not possible on the GS to fit in the AWD hardware with the 3.3 or 3.5. ( I don't know this for a fact, but it is an educated guess...I am not an engineer ). It would also explain why there are currently no plans for an AWD GS430 that I know of.

mmarshall

The TSX..........and the "Global Midsize Platform" you mention...........is simply the non-U.S. version Accord. The RL, of course, is a stretched version of that platform with AWD hardware and a much larger engine.......it is important to note that the U.S.- version Accord and non-U.S. versions use different platforms.
Acura has taken some criticism for not developing a V8 RWD package but it simply did not have the funds to do it...and the new RL is a pretty impressive package overall. I liked the old RL myself, even though it was a little conservative, but the 300 HP V6 and the "Special-Handing" AWD on the new car are nothing to sneeze at.

Acura's next project, IMO, should be giving the TSX an AWD package.............that would be one sweet little sports sedan.

XeroK00L

I'm sorry, but fitment is NOT remotely an excuse for no AWD.
The GS350 to be released in August in Japan can be optioned with AWD.
AWD GS430 is also theoretically possible--the Crown Majesta is not a bigger car than the new GS, yet for years it has a 4.3L V8 with available AWD. And don't forget the recent thread in Car Chat about the AWD+AWS 4.0L V8 1st-gen Aristo, which is an even smaller car!!

I'm going to say again that Lexus is really making a bad move here by keeping the GS350 in Japan for the new GS launch. People who are less than impulsive will hold off for the GS350 that is soon to replace the GS300.

biker

And who knows, maybe Lexus will pull out all stops and have an 6 MT available as well.

mmarshall

Well, I won't argue with you there...I am strongly in favor of AWD anywhere it can be fitted.
Has Lexus officially announced that...that the Japanese-market GS350 will have AWD? if so, I have not heard it......till now.
The smaller engine, though, may sell, but not just because of impulsiveness. Some people just don't care about a lot of power.....they just like the GS's looks. Or they may want a little better gas mileage. Or in some cases less weight on the front end for better handling.
You apparantly like bigger engines.....and you are certainly not alone there. Not everyone, though, has the same priorities when buying a car. In Europe, for instance, many thousands of new vehicles are sold with engines so small it would make most of us laugh....some less than 1 liter.

TRDFantasy

I find it funny how people are always obsessing over horsepower these days, and that the new 3GR-FSE is considered "boring" by some. There is much more to building a great engine than just HP. How about the RPM that HP is reached, or how much TQ the engine makes? What about the engine's fuel economy? The transmission also plays a part in how efficiently that engine's power is transferred.

I think for a 3L V6, the 3GR is pretty powerful. 245HP at 6200 RPM, and 230 lb/ft TQ at 3600 RPM. Compared to an Altima 3.5SE, that makes 250HP @ 5800 RPM, and 249 lb/ft TQ at 4400 RPM. Not too much of a difference, since the Altima makes more torque, but at a higher RPM. Not to mention that the 3.5L VQ has a 0.5L displacement advantage over the 3GR. Also, let's compare the the 3GR to Honda's 3.2L V6 found in the TL. The Honda 3.2L gets 270 hp @ 6200 rpm, and 238 lb/ft @ 5000 rpm. Sure, the Honda engine really looks "cool" having 270HP, but lets examine the engine closer shall we. It makes a measly 8 lb/ft more TQ than the 3GR, at a pretty high 5000 RPM. The Nissan VQ beats the Honda in TQ. At 5000 RPM, I bet you the 3GR would make more TQ than the 3.2L in the TL. The 3GR makes 25HP less compared to the 3.2L Honda, but it is a much smoother and quieter engine. Plus, the 3GR is 0.2L smaller than Honda's engine. Also, I guarantee here as well, that the 3GR will have better fuel economy.

Also don't forget Toyota engineered the 3GR to be silky smooth with the transmission, and very quiet as well, not to mention have very low vibration. You can't exactly say the same about the VQ in the Altima, or more so the Honda. Even if the 3GR does sound boring, many of you will be shocked when you see the fuel economy numbers. I guarantee they will be much better than the competition. With Dual VVT-i and Direct Injection, it is one beauty of an engine.

Plus, Toyota will differentiate the GR engines in Lexus models by sticking Direct Injection in them. I am condfident the IS350 will have DI, allowing it to pump over 300HP, and almost as much Torque. GR engines in Toyota models will only sport Dual VVT-i, not Direct Injection, from what I've heard.

On a side note, I'm so anxious to see and hear about the IS350, since I predict it will have great power, and even better fuel economy than the new Avalon thanks to DI.

mmarshall

Good post, TRD Most of what you said are also my thoughts on the subject. Torque, not HP, is what deterimines acceleration most of the time, especially from low speeds. Max HP is more a determination of how fast the car can go at top speed while overcoming air resistance.

Honda / Acura engines, as you note, have traditionally advertised high HP at high RPM's but have had very little torque, especially at low RPMs. A classic example of this is the Honda S2000's naturally-aspirated four with 240 HP at 7800 RPM but only 162 ft.-lbs. of torque at 6500....still a very high RPM. The 1.8L Toyota VVTi (variable valve timing) engine in the Toyota Celica GTS and Matrix XRS / Pontiac Vibe GT is pretty much the same way.

The complete opposite of this are the Ford and GM push-rod engines with a lot of torque at low RPM but a very low redline.

(by the way, just for your interest, the first stock Honda non-turbo engine I have ever seen with equal hp / torque figures is on the newer CRV's and Elements...160 and 160).

mmarshall

Anyhow, sorry, Mike....we got a little off-topic. This thread is for the M35/45 and how they compare to the competition. I'll have more to say about this when I can actually test-drive the cars this spring.

rai

Couple points, first you pick the Altima the weakest VQ, that car starts at $23K not $44K (like the GS). What about the 280hp in the M35?

You say the IS will have the 3.5L so why not put the bigger engine in the bigger, heavier, more expensive car?

You have no reason to say why the 3.0L is better than the 3.5L. It isn't better. Lexus is selling the GS350 in other markets, but not in the one market that values bigger engines with more TQ. If the 3.0L is good/great I'd bet the 3.5L is great/super (IMO)

I'll name you 100 things I'm looking for in a $46K+ 3700+ lb luxury car, and believe me fuel mileage isn't on the list. There are cars that are built for fuel efficency, mid-size near-luxury cars aren't built for fuel econ, they are built for effortless power, style, luxury, etc...

They have the two V6 engines, why not sell them both, charge $2K more for the bigger engine. People that want the better economy or who don't care about the power can buy the little engine. BMW has done this for years. 525/530/540 etc..

TRDFantasy

Ok, I just took the Altima as a rough example. For the M35, fine, I'll take the 2GR-FE from the Avalon, which makes 280HP. And a base Avalon is cheaper than a base M35, so what's your point? Keep in mind the Avalon engine does not have DI, but all rumours indicate the IS350 will, pushing it to about 300HP.

I was purely comparing engines, not price points. This was sort of in reply to someone who posted that the 3GR-FSE was "nothing special" and was "boring". I know that the 3GR isn't better than a 3.5L VQ, but I couldn't find a 3.0L V6 to compare with, so I also included the TL's 3.2L V6.

The GS will get the 3.5L soon enough. This is my guess at it (just a guess): Toyota for now will have a GS300 and GS430 in North America, so there is a clear performance differentiation between the two. Japan gets the GS350, but keep in mind, they don't have the GS430, so the GS350 fills that "void". I think that once the new LS comes out with the rumoured 4.6L V8, then Toyota will bring out the GS350 for North America, as well as the GS460. Thus, power in both models will go up, and the differentiation will still remain. To bring in the GS350 to North America now ... it would be too much overlap with the GS430. Toyota likes to keep things simple, so my guess is Toyota is just waiting until the 4.6L V8 is ready.

I understand where you're coming from with the issue of fuel mileage, but it's like icing on the cake for the GS. Sure, it won't be your main priority if you're buying a GS300, but it will be a very pleasant surprise nonetheless. And some people do complain about the fuel mileage, so this gives the GR engines another advantage over the competition.

I agree that having the 3GR, along with the 3.5L would be a good idea, but maybe Toyota thinks it will be too much overlap , since current rumours indicate the GS350 will replace the GS300.

Cadd

Just being a little picky here.

Your statement should have read "by the way, just for your interest, the first stock Honda N/A engine to ever have greater torque than hp was produced back in 2002 for the CR-V - 160HP and 162ft/lbs."

The reason I know.....I purchased a 2002 CR-V and I mentioned that to the salesman. He thought about it for a few seconds and said "you're right! I don't ever remember Tq numbers being higher than HP numbers on any production Honda".

Now back to your scheduled program.

mmarshall

Looks like we got a rare honest salesman here.

Anyhow.....I did that post quickly from memory...I remembered the roughly 160 / 160 figures from car tests in magazines. But yes, you and I are both correct...that is the first Honda normally aspirated engine where the torque equalled or exceeded the HP rating.
That engine, however, is also shared with the Element....I am pretty sure of that. And that is also the engine that has had the oil-filter failures and engine fires....and the recall.

How do you like your CR-V? Has it treated you well? Notwithstanding the recall, most of them are incredibly reliable in spite of the AWD complexity....one of the most reliable vehicles in Consumer Reposts' database.
DON'T push it too hard in turns, though....the high center of gravity and comparably narrow width can give them the tipsies.