LexusLuver

http://www.forbes.com/lifestyle/vehi..._0223feat.html



Why Acura Isn't Keeping Up
Dan Lienert

Acura was a surprising success after Honda Motor introduced it to the U.S. market in 1986. Now, 18 years later, Honda's upscale brand is struggling to keep up with its rivals.

In April, Acura will introduce its overhauled RL flagship sedan at the New York International Auto Show. Doubtless, it will take the opportunity to brag about how 2003 was its best year ever for sales in the U.S. If you break the numbers down, however, they tell a different story. True, overall sales were up 3% last year, thanks to 4,000 extra sales of its MDX sport utility and the introduction of its TSX sedan, which sold 19,000 units, but sales for every other Acura were down (see table below).

The division has a nice roster of high-quality, comparatively inexpensive luxury vehicles--but customers don't think Acura plays in the same league as German luxury brands like BMW and DaimlerChrysler's Mercedes-Benz, or even the Lexus division of fellow Japanese automaker Toyota Motor. In 2003, and from 2000 to 2003, Acura's sales grew at a slower rate than those at Lexus or Infiniti, the premium division of Nissan Motor. Lexus outsells Acura by around 40%, roughly the same rate as Toyota division (all Toyota vehicles minus Lexus and Scion) outsells Honda division (all Honda vehicles minus Acura) in the U.S.

Acura cars are well-built and have excellent reputations. Acura's weaknesses are an unexciting image fueled by boring designs, a limited range of vehicles and an underperforming dealer network. The brand's biggest problem, though, is the issue of whether it can build vehicles that people will want to buy as much as Lexus' cars.

Acura had a three-year head start on the other Japanese luxury brands. Its first cars were the three- and five-door Integras, which were like fancy Honda Civics, and the Legend sedan, which was essentially an upmarket Honda Accord. However, sometimes being first on the market is a disadvantage. In Acura's case, Lexus and Infiniti had the opportunity to see how Americans would respond to a Japanese carmaker's radical attempt at introducing upscale cars and simultaneously challenging established luxury makers like Mercedes.

When Lexus and Infiniti entered the market in 1989, they came in with guns blazing, offering outstanding products and a clear strategy for what sort of models to feed the dealers and when. The first Lexus, the LS 400, was a particularly well-built classic that lives on today as the LS 430. In 1991, its third year on the market, Lexus outsold both Mercedes and BMW in the U.S.

To fight back, Acura has tried to craft a reputation for quality and high technology. The company claims the first all-aluminum production automobile, the NSX, as well as the first in-dash satellite-linked navigation system, standard DVD-audio surround system and standard Bluetooth hands-free phone system. What Lexus offers, though, is a roster that includes more vehicles and larger sport utilities than Acura's, one of the main reasons that Toyota's luxury brand is beating Honda's.

For example, Acura has only one truck or sport utility: the $36,000 MDX SUV. Even though the MDX is a superb vehicle, Lexus offers three SUVs and will add a fourth with the RX 400h, a hybrid derivative of the RX 330, this fall.

While Acura's MDX and Lexus' RX 330 are competitors, Lexus' two extra SUVs, the GX 470 and LX 470, brought in 40,000 sales for Lexus last year--15% of the division's overall sales--and never mind the fact that their sticker prices, $45,000 for the GX and $65,000 for the LX, make for fat profit margins. Lexus' overall SUV sales were up 58% last year.

For Toyota and other companies, "all of this growth and profit has been in these big, luxury SUVs," said Philip Guziec, equity analyst for Morningstar.


How The Japanese Luxury Divisions Stack Up In The U.S.
Brand_____2003Sales___2002Sales__%Change %Change, 2000-03__Dealers*
Lexus_____259,755_____234,109____+11%_________+26%__________206
Acura_____170,918_____165,552____+3%__________+20%__________263
Infiniti____118,655_____87,911_____+35%_________+51%__________169

*As of Dec. 31, 2003; Source: Manufacturers

To be fair, Toyota has more than $40 billion in cash, and "if they want to bring out new models and to spend a lot of money to market those, they certainly have the resources to do it," said Mark Igo, general manager of Infiniti. Acura has its work cut out for itself in other ways if it wants to follow Lexus.

"They need to upgrade the customer's experience when shopping for an Acura," says Tom Libby, director of industry analysis for the Power Information Network, a JD Power affiliate that spun off from the company in 2003. "In terms of satisfaction with the shopping experience and the salesperson, Acura is not competitive with Lexus."

Acura's dealers are simply not returning the sort of numbers that Lexus dealers report to Toyota, perhaps because they need some bigger, edgier products to push. In 2003, Lexus sold 259,755 vehicles in the U.S. and Acura sold 170,918--but Lexus did this with fewer dealers, 206 versus 263 at Acura. This means that Lexus sold 52% more cars than Acura did in the U.S. last year--but the average Lexus dealer sold 94% more cars than the average Acura dealer. The problem could be the cars.

"Acura has a very well-defined product in entry luxury," said Libby, referring to the company's RSX coupe and TSX and TL sedans. "They have a middling product in mid-luxury [the RL] and nothing in premium. Perhaps if there were more balance and if they were less strong at the lower end, people would stop thinking of [Acura] as a glorified Honda."

Acura has no flagship sedan above the RL. It has no sexy two-seat, high-end roadster like DaimlerChrysler's Mercedes-Benz SL-class, General Motors' (nyse: GM - news - people ) Cadillac XLR or Lexus' SC 430 (Infiniti's Igo has remarked that he "would love to" have a vehicle like this in his stable). From a performance standpoint, why are there no eight- or ten-cylinder Acuras? Why is the NSX, which has a volume in the 200s, the only Acura with rear-wheel drive?

The answer to questions like this is usually that there are not many large or performance-oriented Honda vehicles on which to base Acura derivatives. Acura's need for larger, more expensive vehicles--particularly SUVs--speaks to a bigger problem at Honda.

Let's look at just SUVs: Like Lexus and Acura, Toyota division has two more SUVs than Honda division. Of Honda's three SUVs, one is the new Element and one is the low-price CR-V. Honda division does not have a single SUV with a base price of $30,000 or higher. Toyota division has the Sequoia, which starts at $32,000, and the $55,000 Land Cruiser. Simply put, Honda is not in much of a position to donate the mechanical underpinnings of larger vehicles to Acura. The same holds true for cars as it does for SUVs; Honda makes nothing bigger than the Accord.

Honda is an intelligent, competitive company, and must know it can help Acura by developing more platforms, the structural underpinnings of cars, for larger vehicles. Morningstar's Guziec said the company can save money while doing this by: 1) developing more than one vehicle off of a new platform; 2) sharing a new, bigger platform between Honda and Acura; and 3) putting both SUVs and cars on one large platform.

"Another option," he said, "is for Acura to remain a niche player with mostly smaller car- and SUV-based vehicles--and not to pursue that large market--and just be very efficient at what they do. Tastes do change, and we've been riding the large SUV wave for a long time now. If fuel economy legislation becomes more aggressive, Honda would be especially well-positioned because they would have a large fleet of vehicles that they would not need to restructure to meet the fuel economy requirements."

They can go this way if they want. But from our perspective, if Acura wants to make more money, it needs to think bigger.

RobSoVIP

nice article... thanks for sharing!-

SC400-V8

iTrader: (1)

I think clublexus had a detailed discussion about this a few months back. All the major points were hit in this discussion as well. Frankly, Acura has been playing catch up to Lexus since nearly day 1, so has Infiniti, and not surprisingly, trucks constitute ALOT of sales for all divisions.

LexusLuver

Major sellers
MB E-class
BMW 3-series
Lexus RX

Lexus takes lux SUV sales to an extreme.


forbes.com
Vehicles Feature
Preview: 2003 Mercedes-Benz E-Class
Michael Frank

For nearly all luxury carmakers, the most important sales category is the "entry-luxury" segment.

This nebulously defined turf includes sports cars, sedans, SUVs and coupes--pretty much everything but pickups, although these, too, now that they're getting softer suspensions and swankier interiors, are edging into the group.

Most significant, though, is that entry-luxury is defined by price, usually between about $28,000 and $40,000. Any lower and you're talking about smaller cars--though, in many cases, still from quality makers, such as Audi, Acura, BMW, Mercedes and Infiniti--and basic models that come without the leather and other goodies that define luxury cars these days.

But throughout the 1990s, Mercedes-Benz defied the logic of the entry-luxury law, outselling its own bottom-rung C-Class with a far larger, far more attractive E-Class. Worldwide, nearly one-third of all Mercedes sales are of the E-Class. Domestically, in 2000, Mercedes sold about 49,000 E-Class sedans and wagons and only 34,000 or so C-Class cars. (True, E-Class sales have since slackened in the U.S., but that's largely due to the fact that the latest $38,000 C-Class sedan was newer than the outgoing $48,000 E, and nearly as large as well.)

By comparison, look at Acura in 2000, when its roughly $30,000 TL outsold the $44,000 RL by a margin of more than 4-to-1. Or look at BMW right now; through the first nine months of 2002, the 3 series has outsold the 5 series, 85,669 units to 31,606.

Why does this matter?

Because carmakers plan for the future based on past sales figures. And more importantly, with their typically higher profit margins, big-ticket cars bring in more cash. That can help improve other niggling aspects of the car biz--like a manufacturer's bond rating. If you don't think that matters, ask Ford Motor (nyse: F - news - people ) and General Motors (nyse: GM - news - people ) about how their costly incentive programs--handing out wads of cash to get people to buy their vehicles--has slaughtered these companies' bond ratings and, subsequently, their stock prices.

What all this has to do with the 2003 E-Class is just about everything. See, the $54,850 E500 (V-8 model) and the $46,950 E320 (V-6 model) are the cars at Mercedes. Without them, the prestige, the aura, the luster of this brand is zip. And, in turn, that would mean far less income for the three-pointed star, leading to far lower profits and less to invest in everything else the company makes.

But what goes hand in hand with making that dough for Mercedes is that, in America and worldwide, the E-Class is the Mercedes more people want to own than any other--the one that says to your neighbors you've made it (even if you can't afford a $70K S-Class). And because over the past decade the E outsold everything else in the $45K to $60K segment, it's also the icon that every other carmaker shoots for. Putting an even finer point on it: Through the first nine months of 2002, the much smaller, outgoing E-Class is outselling Lexus' range-topping LS430 by nearly 20%, in a year when the Lexus is brand new. If that's not about the prestige of the E-Class, we don't know what is.

But Mercedes knows it can't rely on prestige alone. Which is why, although Mercedes debuts other industry firsts on its higher-rung SL and S editions, for 2003 it has brought every one of those breakthroughs--from electronic braking to multiple suspension innovations--together for the E-Class. This car is a moving testament to Mercedes technology, engineering know-how and design brilliance. It is everything this company knows how to do rolled into one very impressive automobile.

To get an idea why, keep that mouse moving.

[size=1]The new E looks more slick, less stodgy[/size=1]

Mercedes almost never gets credit for good design, and that boggles us to no end. The new C-Class is a splendid shrink-wrap of the latest S, and the newest CLK is as sharp as coupes come.

While rival BMW is going through an apparent identity crisis, with the latest 7 series prompting the rise of spiteful Web sites dedicated to spamming that company's head designer, Chris Bangle, Mercedes is suffering from no such pangs. Apparently Mercedes can seamlessly target a younger buyer without abandoning an older boomer core audience. Neat trick--one Cadillac isn't achieving with its knifelike new look.

Observe the latest E-Class closely, though, and you can see just how Mercedes gets away with it.

Mercedes has taken much of the newest S-Class and incorporated those character marks into the face of the latest E. The smaller grille, the split chrome bumper and the lower front pan are all direct carryovers from the S. Then, to emphasize the car's presence (the new E is about an inch wider and longer than the outgoing model) and give it a sportier look, Mercedes designers added "blistered" fender arches to highlight the larger wheels and tires.


[size=1]The trunk lid gets a small lip to increase aerodynamic downforce.[/size=1]

More important, however, is a pronounced wedge shape: The entire car appears to arch forward, with the mass of the trunk and rear tire well sweeping to an ever-thinning hood. It helps, too, that every fold in the side of the E's sheet metal is slightly curved, rising from the trunk toward the center door pillar then falling gently to the nose of the car. That falling line is much longer than the rising one from the trunk (since the door pillar occurs not at the midpoint of the vehicle but well behind it), so again the beast looks taut, like a bent spring canted forward.

You might think such design language is overwrought and frivolous, but when your eye takes in the E-Class, it picks up on such signals. If you think it looks sportier than the outgoing version, or a bit like the current BMW 5 series (no accident there), your brain is receiving the signals Mercedes intended.

By the way, there are other smart details hidden in this design, such as wheels that were shaped in the wind tunnel so that they don't create extra drag or contribute road noise and underbody paneling designed to decrease drag. Air intakes sliced out of the front bumper contain 16 louvers that open and close automatically, depending on driving conditions and air temperature. If more cooling is needed (determined by a sensor that measures the coolant temperature and air-conditioning refrigerant pressure), more louvers are opened. When the louvers are shuttered, drag is further reduced.

Reducing drag even further is an integrated rear spoiler on the trunk lid that creates a neat visual line from the top of the taillights.

Overall, the E-Class looks sexier than the previous E, as well as sportier and--to our eyes anyway--more prestigious.

[size=1]The optional Panorama roof literally sheds more light on the cabin of the E-Class. [/size=1]

One of Mercedes' clear goals was to make the new E more spacious without making it heavier or especially huge. In fact, by using more aluminum, plastic and high-strength steel in the structure of the car, Mercedes managed to make the E more generous inside, while actually lightening the heft of the E320. (Since it has a larger displacement than the outgoing V-8 E430, however, the 5.0-liter E500 does weigh about 100 pounds more.)

For all the restraint practiced on the exterior of E, with its taut sportiness, the interior is full of gracious curves, soft materials, gleaming wood and glinting chrome. And, of course, it's much roomier than the outgoing car as well. Not S-Class big, mind you, but that wasn't the idea. While Lexus and Infiniti stack their larger cars up against the E--charging about the same amount of money for roomier automobiles that more naturally compete with the Benz S-Class--Mercedes' U.S. E-Class sales for 2002 may equal or even better the combined sales of both the Infiniti Q45 and Lexus LS430 models.

[size=1]A high level of luxury is found onboard the E[/size=1]

But even though the interior dimensions of the new E are nearly dead equal with that of the latest Audi A6 (a car that, by the way, sells for considerably less), the amenities themselves are truly top-notch. Audi cranks out the slickest-looking interiors for the money, but these--and BMW's interiors as well--are sporty and masculine. Mercedes, by contrast, is tops for making a universal sort of luxury, appealing equally to both genders without seeming generic.

As for particulars, let's start with material use. Rather than glue or screw together the dashboard of the E, a soft-touch polyurethane is sprayed onto a base material. This cuts down on the number of seams required, so that the entire fascia looks of a single piece. This also allowed Mercedes to curve the dash forward at the center console without having to worry about tough-to-join elements.

[size=1]You can toggle the automatic gear selector side to side to select gears.[/size=1]

To reduce vibration and noise, Mercedes used a magnesium cross member to anchor the dashboard and its components, and made sure the design of the dash itself was soundproof and fully insulated from noises that might pass through the firewall to the cabin.

Not that you'll see any of those guts. What you will see is the prominent use of burl walnut, and here it is unabashedly glossy--and crested on the doors and around the shifter in real chrome. Chrome also rings the new gauges, which glow a bluish-white at night, and which are large and elegant, like the face of a dress watch. Speaking of which, this setup now includes a large analog clock, a feature we very much appreciate, in addition to a centrally mounted speedometer and tachometer. At the center of that speedometer is an information menu that is controlled from the steering wheel. It tells you what radio station you're tuned to, the outside temperature, if there are any mechanical malfunctions, the last number you called on the optional ($1,995 with hands-free function) onboard Motorola V60 phone, and so forth.


[size=1]Backseat passengers can control their own environment.[/size=1]

Audio settings, however, are not quite as simple to adjust. There are various submenus on a center-console-mounted LED screen, so adjusting tone, for example, requires navigating to the right menu first. Anyone ever hear of *****?

One thing they got right: Below the audio system are large, easy-to-locate switches for remote fold-down rear headrests (so you can see to back up), the motion sensor-disabling switch, as well as optional heated seats, power rear sunshade and Parktronic parking assist.

Two other things we like are the seats and the roof.

First the seats, which come as a standard, ten-way adjustable power model with an incorporated suspension. No joke, the seat frame has coil springs built into it with arched aluminum suspension members. Or you can get optional ($1,150) Drive Dynamic seats, which feature individually inflatable air cushions that automatically respond to vehicle motion. Yep, like the Airmatic suspension in this car (see the Driving section), the seats themselves counter tight turns, acceleration and bumps by adjusting the volume of air cosseting you. And, naturally, you can have them massage you at the same time.

Finally, one rather amazing option is the panorama sunroof ($1,500). This is a pair of glass roofs, one over the front, which opens, and one over the backseat area. The sunroof lets a lot of light into the cabin and creates a wonderfully airy quality to sunny-day driving. Also, should you desire, you can spend another $950 for a solar panel that's incorporated into this design. It can run the car's cooling system--via a timer or a set temperature--to vent hot air when the car is parked and the engine is off, so that the vehicle is somewhat cooler when you return from work or an errand (and the system doesn't drain the battery).

[size=1]Seats are about comfort for all driving--not just sporty driving.
[/size=1]

[size=1]The E500 suspension and steering are great for bends just like this. [/size=1]

We find the E better than the competition--although, at times, less intuitive. The fault may lie with us and our aggressive driving style, or with Mercedes and its insistence on digitizing everything. But before we get to that, we need to explain what's going on here.

The E500 inherits the Airmatic Dual Control suspension system first seen on the S-Class. So far, so good, since the idea here is that, in place of coil springs, Mercedes uses special rubber bellows in the spring struts. The struts are charged with compressed air via solenoid valves; during everyday driving, the entire bellows is active, to provide the greatest range of motion and dampening.

Under such circumstances, the E500 is without equal. It rides over expansion joints and bumps with blissful indifference but not with sponginess. Unlike some big boats we could name, this car feels creamy smooth without feeling soft or out of control.

When you drive the E500 harder, Airmatic drops the car slightly to reduce dive and roll. In addition to varying pressure in the bellows, Airmatic can vary shock-absorber force and spring rates up to 20 times per second. The driver can also vary damping from a switch behind the transmission stick, allowing him to put the car in two sportier modes; both drop the car a half-inch, but the stiffest setting does not allow the vehicle to revert to softer damping.

Bewildered?

[size=1]Flip the switch to dial in suspension stiffness.[/size=1]

Fundamentally what we found is that the suspension is up to any maneuver you might attempt on public roads. Don't toy with the suspension settings, and the car adapts to your level of aggression or the road's level of disrepair with ease. Just drive. Drive hard if you like. This car is up to the task, with sharp steering that gives lots of sure-feeling feedback and takes fewer rotations from lock to lock (full left to full right). Effort is a tad light, but it firms up eventually (when you really get blasting way up into arrest-me territory). There's also plenty of grip from its 45-series, 17-inch tires.

OK, so we like the handling and the suspension. And guess what? We love the motor, too. The new 5.0-liter V-8 delivers a respectable 302 horsepower, but we're more impressed by the 339 foot-pounds of torque knocked out by this unit at a mere 2,700 rpm. This motor is borrowed from the S500, but in this car it has a lot less metal to push around--and it shows. The E500 launches in any situation, thanks to a brilliantly calibrated five-speed automatic, and will hit 60 mph in 5.8 seconds, which is honing in on sports-car territory.

We also like the throaty exhaust note. It used to be you knew your E-Class had guts, but nobody else did. With this car, the engine can do a little talking for you as well.

So where's our beef?

With the brakes. Mercedes has continued with this car to incorporate its new electronic braking system (now on the SL and S), and we still don't like it. It's not that we doubt the safety of these brakes. But the difference in pedal feel between electronic brakes (tied by sensors and computers to the calipers and discs rather than via hydraulics) is pronounced. Push softly, and Mercedes has a system designed that's supposed to prevent the usual jolt to a stop that's common in stop-and-go traffic.

But we--and most other drivers, we think--are used to applying braking force to slow the car, then easing up as we approach the actual point where the car ceases movement. Do that in the E (or any other Mercedes with electronic braking), and the brakes let up too much. Apply the brakes harder to react to this, and they grab too hard, as if they are constantly second-guessing your actions.

This happens when you drive the car aggressively as well. Quickly remove your foot from the throttle, say, just before braking for a corner, and the system pre-loads the emergency braking system, setting the car up for a panic stop. That'd be great if we were actually trying to avoid an accident, but we were just out having fun.

It's not like you can't have fun with this car, or that the brakes don't stop the E. They do, and they do a darn good job of it. But the system here tries too hard to guess your every action. And although that's meant to increase safety (for example, the ABS system doesn't cause the pedal to pulse; some drivers lifted their feet off the brake when this happened, according to Mercedes), it's not a good thing for either sporty driving or everyday driving. We can modulate a regular brake pedal just fine, but this is more like an on/off button--much harder to actuate just as we please.

Iceman

Wow--with an article like that Mercedes doesn't even have to buy advertising space in Forbes. OTOH, buying gobs of advertising space is probably how they got such a glowing review in the first place!

I disagree with the foundation of this author's argument--that the E-class is the epitome of luxury and success because it sells a lot of units. How can he claim that the E-class is the basis of the prestige of the Mercedes brand, brushing off the S-class explicitly and completely ignoring the CL-class and SL-class which round out their over $100K offerings? And saying that because the E-class outsells the LS430 it is a more prestigious car is simply ridiculous! I guess the Camry is the most prestigious car in America, by that logic. An intangible part of prestige is exclusivity, and I don't think I'd feel too high on the hog driving Europe's primary taxicab.

DaveGS4

iTrader: (2)

Guys, let's keep this thread on topic. We already have at least one other MB thread going on and this HUGE E500 MB article doesn't have anything to do with Acura keeping up that I could fathom.

LexusLuver - do you own a Lexus?

mmarshall

Before we pan Acura too much here.....let's not forget that they were the FIRST Japanese manufacturer to introduce a exotic supercar in the U.S......the NSX.....something that Lexus and infiniti have yet to do. And, yes, while the design has aged some now (it was introduced in 1991) and has not sold in large numbers, it was one of the first all-aluminum cars on the market. Audi's A8 and Jaguar's all-aluminum XJ are just now catching up....and the NSX is introducing its second-generation now.

1QWKGS4

iTrader: (3)

Uggghh -- "Acura brought the 1st exotic sports car to america"

The NSX is my all time favorite car but its not the first - sorry dude..

uhh - i think you mean the 4th-
The Toyota Supra and Nissan Z cars been in the states since the 70's - Rx-7 in the 80's -And yes the Nissan 300ZX Twin Turbo came out in 1990! and The Supra is the Corvette of Japnaese Cars.. which as I have read articles in Motor Trend - doing test between Porsche 911 Turbo, Ferrari 348, Corvette, NSX, Mazda RX-7 Turbo in the same EXOTIC TESTS.. I believe its the 4th ---

DaveGS4

iTrader: (2)

While I love the Supra, 300Z and RX7, I personally don't think they qualify as 'exotic'. Great and fast cars, yes. Exotic, no, The NSX is at the absolute bottom end of what I'd consider exotic. Do any of those cars have an all aluminum body? High tech engine (first variable Vtech) that rev to 8K rpms? Titanium connecting rods? Mid engine? Are they handbuilt? Rare?

I am biased because I have an NSX sitting in the garage below me, but even if I didn't I wouldn't call any of those other three cars 'Exotic' and I don't think many other people would as well. Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of all three of them especially the Supra. But IMO they don't qualify.

1QWKGS4

iTrader: (3)

I knew someone like you Dave would disagree especially since you got an NSX but don;t get me wrong -
For along time i've love NSX's more than any car imaginable - The NSX was a great car back in '91 but now by todays standards its a joke. I mean 290HP com'on u can get a 350Z with almost same power- But then again its not 'Rare' - Trust me when I say "I want a Rare car" - I used to work in automotive industry the Supra is actually more rare than an NSX.

According to Price- a '91 Nissan 300ZX TT with all bells and whistles was toping out at $50K
Same for the '93 Toyota Supra TT topping at $50K -- the Acura NX first came out was $60K so not that much in price difference- and as a matter of exotic-ness or not - I'll let you argue with Motor Trend why a Supra was tested with other exotics if it weren't so - and ofcourse the NSX is one of the slower cars in the test, but then again I'm justing quoting "Motor Trend" take it up with them -

You must admit the NSX is an unpowered car though "even professional drivers" have quoted only if the NSX had more power' like a small V8 with at least 350HP.." The car has no torque of the line - remember the Acura ledgend 6sp- it actually took off better than its own NSX - what gives?

Personally- your opinion is your opionion - but i rather go buy what the experts say what is or isn't -
an exotic..

Thanks,
QWK

DaveGS4

iTrader: (2)

Hey, we don't have to agree on this I read plenty of 'expert' opinions and including a car in a magazine shootout or article does not in any way an exotic make.

I also don't think a Supra is more rare than an NSX. Based on current demand - maybe. Based on numbers manufactured , I don't think so. Let's see you dig up some numbers for 1994 NSXs vs 1994 Supras (first full year) sold in the US since you're in the business .

I also don't argue that its underpowered, but so are many of the Ferrari's it was built to compete with. My GS is faster off the line than my GF's NSX but just barely. A 1997+ will eat my lunch.

Again - just my opinion. If you want to believe a Supra, RX7 and 300Z are exotics have at it .

gs400998

Let's wait and see whether Honda is going to make any changes to its current Acura lineup to compete with with GS4, LX, GX, LS, SC. Lexus has been on the market since 90 but Honda is still running a V6 in its top of the line Acura RL that makes 45 HP less than its TL! I have a TL Type-S but with the coming of new GS with AWD and the existing G35 AWD, it is unlikey that I will need a FWD Acura in the future for the midwest winter.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

Keeping on thread (just for your dave, )... I think the new Acura TL is great. I'm seeing more and more of them on the road and I think the looks are GREAT. I also saw a new BMW 525i on the road, I think it had 16's on it and it looked AWFUL. I've seen a few 530i's which have 17's I'd guess, making it look a slight bit better, but it can't hide its confused and complex styling.

Yes, the TL is still Accord based (I believe), but it really is a great car. If I wanted a new car in the 30-35K range it would definitely be high on my list. Even though the G35 sedan is RWD, I think the TL is a better buy.

But as far as 'keeping up' the problem is simply that Honda doesn't have enough money. Acura can only leverage its Honda platforms for the most part, whereas Lexus can build new ones from scratch. Building new platforms from scratch for a world market is STAGGERINGLY expensive. Keep in mind all the regulations each country has that a car must pass. This is really hard stuff.

Acura's kind of between a rock and a hard place. But I think Honda's biggest problem which translates to Acura as well is it has no V8 and no large trucks/SUVs. I saw a pic of a new Honda pick-up and it looks like crap. Nissan realized it had to have V8s to get in the game, and is doing it right.

LexusLuver

I think the E-class article had something to do with overall sales. The norm is entry level sells, MB defies that rule w/the E-class.

Sorry I dont own a Lexus, not this soon. It hasnt been quite 30days since I can legally drink.
However I can draw logical conclusions about cars. Ive had many hrs of hands on experience.
Just to name a few:

transmission/differental install (differtial service)
engine build and install
full brake service
starter motor, altenator rebuild
pretty much anything suspension related from shocks bushings springs rollbar replacment 4wheel alignment
much steering related service
lots of stuff to list etc

I have appointed myself a car-guru. I think about cars, talk about cars entirely too much.

Bean

iTrader: (1)

i'm pretty sure the 3rd gen RX-7 and SupraTT are both more rare than the NSX... iirc there's only like 1200 TT supras ever made from 93-98 in the US, and around 1600-1800 3rd gen RX-7s