Ali SC3's "Workin on it" thread
09-09-16, 11:00 AM
#241
I have decided to take the ad down and keep it for now. to many people just dicking around and ltely I have been driving it more and it has not been giving me any issues, its like she knew what was going on lol. So plan B of turning it into a budget drag car is under way. who has an lsd and a roll cage I can borrow 
Those Supra LSDs are not cheap anymore either . There is one on the classifieds .. wanted $1200 shipped from PA .
09-09-16, 12:12 PM
#243
Too many people wanting a fast car , huh ?.....but wouldn't shell out the dough or believe they can do it cheaper till they find out it ain't cheap building a fast car.
Those Supra LSDs are not cheap anymore either . There is one on the classifieds .. wanted $1200 shipped from PA .
Those Supra LSDs are not cheap anymore either . There is one on the classifieds .. wanted $1200 shipped from PA .
Its like I am sorry but if anyone offer me money without looking at it first I will just have to assume you are an a$$hat and stop responding.
I will hold out for an auto TRD unit if I can find one, would prefer new but we shall see.
I am not sure how long the stock auto lsd's will hold up to constant launching, and I'm not dropping the cash for the big diff right now.
The vette I have decided is 1000% going to get a single turbo, probably strap a S366 to it and see how fast that thing spools.
And it will stay carb'd, its about 1k for a properly setup blow through carb that can handle that airflow, but I think it will be worth every penny.
Last owner threw an off the shelf Holley on there and a newer electronic distributor... doesn't even have the tach drive so they put a column mounted tach on it
Already bought a HEI electronic distributor with the old school mechanical tach drive so I can take all that crap off and get the stock tacho working.. it will take a while but soon the vette will be back to its former glory. I already scrapped the terrible power steering system that never works right and put in a Borgeson steering conversion kit and the thing handles super tight now, no play whatsoever. Ive done so many things to it already to get it like original its crazy, just getting the wipers to operate and the headlights working took me a whole day, apparently the previous owner was too lazy to connect a couple vacuum lines, that were just hanging there.. lol.
Its a good car it just needed someone to care about the little stuff, I am glad its in the right hands now next year it will look the part and if I can get 4-500 horses out of it that will be plenty for some burnouts
The vette is definitely a chick magnet, its actually an everything magnet from people wanting to park too close to you to car guys popping up from all over cause I literally have no mufflers whatsover. My neighbor where its parked is a car guy and was joking, "hey, have you heard of this thing its called a muffler" and I was like "I think I have heard of those before, they come on honda's right"
Currently, it is terribly slow. its got great response and whatnot, but its not winding out the rpm's high enough and the torque is just not nearly half of what it should be. I want to dyno it to see just how bad it is. As soon as I get the new distributor in, compression test and new Iridium plugs and check the timing I will have the current carb tuned up by the corvette shop that is local here, I am pretty sure both are off its supposed to have 270hp and 360ft/lbs stock but it really feels like half that... I know elevation makes it worse up here but still.
I am getting part of the exhaust remade from the header to the sidepipes, and I am adding o2 sensor bungs on the collectors so I can throw a wideband on there. I know its carb'd but I like to see what my motor is doing. When I had the 85 toyota with the 22R in it I had a wideband and it was carb'd, and it was amazing that carb had perfect AFR's i was seriously impressed. If I get the wideband on there I am sure I could rejet he carb myself but for round 1 I will let the pro's take a stab at it.
Last edited by Ali SC3; 09-09-16 at 12:20 PM.
09-10-16, 02:18 PM
#244
Ali, you could swap a 427 or a '71-'72 454 engine into that Corvette and you'd never have to worry about elevation losses ever again! 
In seriousness, turbocharging the 350 with the carburetor sounds awesome! Few people still take that route. When I was a car magazine reading teenager I'd read about those setups but only on drag cars from the 70's and 80's. I hope you do it!
I know we're on an SC forum but I'd really love to see a bit of what you're doing to your Vette and the Audi when you feel like it. Both awesome cars.
I'm glad you decided to keep your SC. Also... sorry you got such crappy "interest" for your car when it was up for sale. $8600 was more than a bargain.
With Torsen differentials I usually do not see entire TT Auto pumpkins going for less than $1k now. Just the Torsen centers I've seen between $500-$650 if you can find one listed. The rule of thumb I've learned is that 500whp is the point at which they aren't stable under power any longer. Not sure how much farther beyond that is their breaking point. If you're going to push big numbers then a used or nos TRD 2-way or a new Kaaz, Cusco or OSG are probably better starting points anyway.
There is still the stomach-turning step-left tendency of the Torsens when driven in bad weather under full power (never do this, lol) or when pushed to 500whp or more. Plus they operate like open diffs when one wheel is off the ground (in a heavy SC this is more of an issue when going over rough terrain or when negotiating an uneven surface to U-turn which may cause one rear wheel to lift off the ground). All said I'm still very happy to have mine and prefer no diff maintenance other than fluid changes in a mild street SC. I'll likely keep mine once I go GTE but the JDM import Torsen T-2 centers found in some JDM 1996+ Soarer pumpkins and possibly some 1996+ MKIV non-220mm pumpkins are supposed to be superior for both traction, control and possibly more power holding. A clutch type, however, is probably still superior than the T-2 Torsen for big power: proven and predictable.
Here in the US we have almost no word of mouth and therefore track record of positives and negatives for the rare Torsen T-2 that fit our 200mm differentials making it interesting but unknown territory (for us). I bring it up only because it's a legitimate alternative that is supposed to be better than the common TT Auto Torsen T-1 but finding one is harder than finding a unicorn.
In seriousness, turbocharging the 350 with the carburetor sounds awesome! Few people still take that route. When I was a car magazine reading teenager I'd read about those setups but only on drag cars from the 70's and 80's. I hope you do it!
I know we're on an SC forum but I'd really love to see a bit of what you're doing to your Vette and the Audi when you feel like it. Both awesome cars.
I'm glad you decided to keep your SC. Also... sorry you got such crappy "interest" for your car when it was up for sale. $8600 was more than a bargain.
With Torsen differentials I usually do not see entire TT Auto pumpkins going for less than $1k now. Just the Torsen centers I've seen between $500-$650 if you can find one listed. The rule of thumb I've learned is that 500whp is the point at which they aren't stable under power any longer. Not sure how much farther beyond that is their breaking point. If you're going to push big numbers then a used or nos TRD 2-way or a new Kaaz, Cusco or OSG are probably better starting points anyway.
There is still the stomach-turning step-left tendency of the Torsens when driven in bad weather under full power (never do this, lol) or when pushed to 500whp or more. Plus they operate like open diffs when one wheel is off the ground (in a heavy SC this is more of an issue when going over rough terrain or when negotiating an uneven surface to U-turn which may cause one rear wheel to lift off the ground). All said I'm still very happy to have mine and prefer no diff maintenance other than fluid changes in a mild street SC. I'll likely keep mine once I go GTE but the JDM import Torsen T-2 centers found in some JDM 1996+ Soarer pumpkins and possibly some 1996+ MKIV non-220mm pumpkins are supposed to be superior for both traction, control and possibly more power holding. A clutch type, however, is probably still superior than the T-2 Torsen for big power: proven and predictable.
Here in the US we have almost no word of mouth and therefore track record of positives and negatives for the rare Torsen T-2 that fit our 200mm differentials making it interesting but unknown territory (for us). I bring it up only because it's a legitimate alternative that is supposed to be better than the common TT Auto Torsen T-1 but finding one is harder than finding a unicorn.
Last edited by KahnBB6; 09-10-16 at 02:25 PM.
09-12-16, 11:20 AM
#246
Ali, you could swap a 427 or a '71-'72 454 engine into that Corvette and you'd never have to worry about elevation losses ever again!
In seriousness, turbocharging the 350 with the carburetor sounds awesome! Few people still take that route. When I was a car magazine reading teenager I'd read about those setups but only on drag cars from the 70's and 80's. I hope you do it!
I know we're on an SC forum but I'd really love to see a bit of what you're doing to your Vette and the Audi when you feel like it. Both awesome cars.
I'm glad you decided to keep your SC. Also... sorry you got such crappy "interest" for your car when it was up for sale. $8600 was more than a bargain.
With Torsen differentials I usually do not see entire TT Auto pumpkins going for less than $1k now. Just the Torsen centers I've seen between $500-$650 if you can find one listed. The rule of thumb I've learned is that 500whp is the point at which they aren't stable under power any longer. Not sure how much farther beyond that is their breaking point. If you're going to push big numbers then a used or nos TRD 2-way or a new Kaaz, Cusco or OSG are probably better starting points anyway.
There is still the stomach-turning step-left tendency of the Torsens when driven in bad weather under full power (never do this, lol) or when pushed to 500whp or more. Plus they operate like open diffs when one wheel is off the ground (in a heavy SC this is more of an issue when going over rough terrain or when negotiating an uneven surface to U-turn which may cause one rear wheel to lift off the ground). All said I'm still very happy to have mine and prefer no diff maintenance other than fluid changes in a mild street SC. I'll likely keep mine once I go GTE but the JDM import Torsen T-2 centers found in some JDM 1996+ Soarer pumpkins and possibly some 1996+ MKIV non-220mm pumpkins are supposed to be superior for both traction, control and possibly more power holding. A clutch type, however, is probably still superior than the T-2 Torsen for big power: proven and predictable.
Here in the US we have almost no word of mouth and therefore track record of positives and negatives for the rare Torsen T-2 that fit our 200mm differentials making it interesting but unknown territory (for us). I bring it up only because it's a legitimate alternative that is supposed to be better than the common TT Auto Torsen T-1 but finding one is harder than finding a unicorn.
In seriousness, turbocharging the 350 with the carburetor sounds awesome! Few people still take that route. When I was a car magazine reading teenager I'd read about those setups but only on drag cars from the 70's and 80's. I hope you do it!
I know we're on an SC forum but I'd really love to see a bit of what you're doing to your Vette and the Audi when you feel like it. Both awesome cars.
I'm glad you decided to keep your SC. Also... sorry you got such crappy "interest" for your car when it was up for sale. $8600 was more than a bargain.
With Torsen differentials I usually do not see entire TT Auto pumpkins going for less than $1k now. Just the Torsen centers I've seen between $500-$650 if you can find one listed. The rule of thumb I've learned is that 500whp is the point at which they aren't stable under power any longer. Not sure how much farther beyond that is their breaking point. If you're going to push big numbers then a used or nos TRD 2-way or a new Kaaz, Cusco or OSG are probably better starting points anyway.
There is still the stomach-turning step-left tendency of the Torsens when driven in bad weather under full power (never do this, lol) or when pushed to 500whp or more. Plus they operate like open diffs when one wheel is off the ground (in a heavy SC this is more of an issue when going over rough terrain or when negotiating an uneven surface to U-turn which may cause one rear wheel to lift off the ground). All said I'm still very happy to have mine and prefer no diff maintenance other than fluid changes in a mild street SC. I'll likely keep mine once I go GTE but the JDM import Torsen T-2 centers found in some JDM 1996+ Soarer pumpkins and possibly some 1996+ MKIV non-220mm pumpkins are supposed to be superior for both traction, control and possibly more power holding. A clutch type, however, is probably still superior than the T-2 Torsen for big power: proven and predictable.
Here in the US we have almost no word of mouth and therefore track record of positives and negatives for the rare Torsen T-2 that fit our 200mm differentials making it interesting but unknown territory (for us). I bring it up only because it's a legitimate alternative that is supposed to be better than the common TT Auto Torsen T-1 but finding one is harder than finding a unicorn.
Plus the Brands hatch green color has really grown on me, I am not sure any other color would do it for me now =)
I took my lady friend out for a night on the town with it on saturday and we had a heck of a time (even though I was super paranoid about parking it places). I think about 10 people stopped us to compliment it, another handful just had to know what year it was specifically, one toddler made a mad dash for the hood before his mom yelled at him not to touch it, one hot rod thought his was louder than my side pipes (it wasn't even close to as loud), and then the way random girls would just eye the car down... have to remind myself its just the car there could be a panda driving it and they wouldn't notice, but still I have learnt it attracts attention whether you like it or not. I had 2 cops drive past me while I was idling very loudly at 3 am pulled over on the side of a main neighborhood road leaving a friends house and they didn't even slow down to bother me, I think with classic cars they do not seem to care how loud or what you are doing, if I was in my SC I feel I would have been questioned at the least lol.
yeah it used to be more the track cars were boosted cause off WOT response was terrible with a blow through carb, but the technology has come so far with boosted carb setups its supposedly quite nice for a street car now so its a no brainer for a na-t guy like me. I will post some stuff from time to time on the bigger items, lol it is an SC forum after all.
I didn't have the SC listed for all that long, really there was interest but not quick enough for me cause I decided I rather keep it. so what if I am juts one person with 4 cars, I decided I don't care what non car people think of my obsession, they can go drive their corollas or minivans or whatever to work.. it doesn't do it for me lol.
I think the consensus on the Torsen is that its more responsive, requires less maintenance, but above a certain power level they just destruct so alot of people will go with the clutch type they can keep replacing. I want a TRD unit, but if I can't get that I will go for the Kaaz 2 way I think. I will put it in a gs400 diff with the longer 3.2 or whatever (I am forgetful) gearing. Even for the 5 speed I just want tho stay in my gears longer for that turbo pull, and itll be perfect for going 6 speed.
The audi build is almost complete, with any luck i will have it running for the first time this weekend, but so many things go wrong on those cars I am not going to get too excited until I put it through he paces and it doesn't self destruct. Last week I was about to try and test start it and I connected the wrong wires trying to get the fuel pump to turn on via the factory wiring and I totally fried the cluster by shorting one of the can bus wires to 12v, literally everything in the interior went haywire or stopped working... I am lucky it was just the cluster and a buddy of mine has a rs4 cluster sitting around which has a much nicer look and color lcd screen, so I scooped that up and then I had to send it out for reprogramming as those cars its programmed to recognize the key and climate control does not work without the right code in the cluster. If I had the right engine/ecu that would also be disabled, but since I am using an older ecu/motor that ecu does not care about codes so technically I could try and start it but I want it all to be in place before that, should have it back this week hopefully. ran a seperate fuel pump relay also lol, sort of the audi version of the 12V mod. I have a feeling it will be a really fun car, interior is the nicest out of my fleet, pretty much everything is super nice about it, but with that all wheel drive I am not sure I will get the same rush out of it, will decide whats happening with it after that lol.
I wanted to go 350z trans, but now I am seriously considering the t-56 swap. both will hold the power I want which is to be in the 700+whp club. anything more will just be a bonus. I don't think a ar5 would handle it that well everyday otherwise i would drop one of those in there cause it fits so well.
In all likeliness I will not be doing any of this build until I find another house with a 2 car garage, which according to my lawyer and random legal stuff is at least a few months out lol. So for right now it will be small stuff, but there is plenty of small stuff to get done so I will be on it as soon as winter hits. Body kit and looking good suff is on hold possibly indefinitely, I am going to focus on purely go fast and stuff to support that power when I can get to it.
Last edited by Ali SC3; 09-12-16 at 01:39 PM.
09-12-16, 01:57 PM
#247
Kahn, here is my short list of what all has gone into the vette in the last month to give you an idea... along with the last little bit of my free time.
I might have to sell a couple kidneys here soon to finish it up... I left out the prices but almost put 3k into it since getting it and its mostly just little things.
At least the Borgeson steering kit is in and now it handles like a dream with super power steering.
door lock *****
door handles
Windshield wiper vacuum actuator
T-top suitcase
HEI distributor with mechanical tach
Borgeson steering kit
Projector headlight kit
HID kit w/relay
Stingray floor mats
Stereo Bezel w/ single din opening
Pioneer stereo DEH-X6800BT
Pioneer 4x6 speakers
10" Kicker sub dual coil
A/C Vent set in chrome
Outside door handles in chrome
Window switches
Muffler pair (installing between block hugger ceramic headers and sidepipes)
exh header reducer 3 bolt w/02 bungs (rebuilding section mufflers are going into and installing wideband)
exh o2 plugs and reducer gaskets
exh 2.5" Manderel bends 2x90/2x45/flex
AEM wideband and mounting cup
E-brake handle in chrome
A/C cntrl rebuild kit, e-brake cover, 270hp plate
NGK UR6IX Iridium plugs
Map pocket (literally no where to put anything if you dont have the map pockets...)
Armrest cushion
I have a feeling its not going to end anytime soon either...
I might have to sell a couple kidneys here soon to finish it up... I left out the prices but almost put 3k into it since getting it and its mostly just little things.
At least the Borgeson steering kit is in and now it handles like a dream with super power steering.
door lock *****
door handles
Windshield wiper vacuum actuator
T-top suitcase
HEI distributor with mechanical tach
Borgeson steering kit
Projector headlight kit
HID kit w/relay
Stingray floor mats
Stereo Bezel w/ single din opening
Pioneer stereo DEH-X6800BT
Pioneer 4x6 speakers
10" Kicker sub dual coil
A/C Vent set in chrome
Outside door handles in chrome
Window switches
Muffler pair (installing between block hugger ceramic headers and sidepipes)
exh header reducer 3 bolt w/02 bungs (rebuilding section mufflers are going into and installing wideband)
exh o2 plugs and reducer gaskets
exh 2.5" Manderel bends 2x90/2x45/flex
AEM wideband and mounting cup
E-brake handle in chrome
A/C cntrl rebuild kit, e-brake cover, 270hp plate
NGK UR6IX Iridium plugs
Map pocket (literally no where to put anything if you dont have the map pockets...)
Armrest cushion
I have a feeling its not going to end anytime soon either...
Last edited by Ali SC3; 09-12-16 at 02:01 PM.
09-12-16, 02:13 PM
#248
Though I know you and I discussed this already on our PMs, just to help others have some info ....... \
Tremec (T56) Magnum will be your best bet on your Vette and SC . After having helped and seen my two buddies with the CD009 and their twin clutches on their cars one a MKIV and another a 240sx , I have finally made up my mind that the CD009 is not the way to go for me as an alternate to the V160 6 speed . I wan't to preserve the two brand new V160 I bought before they were discontinued as reserved for my V160 cars. In light of my desire to convert one of my SCs from auto to 6speed , I bought a new Tremec (T56) Magnum ($3050) which can hold 700 ft.lbs of torque at stock configuration .. got it built (some better parts replaced and added , CRYOed, REMed) and now can hold +900 ft.lbs. at least on paper. The V160 6 speed on paper is only rated below 500 ft.lbs. . The available clutches and having been proven at high 2JZ application were my deciding factors. ClutchMasters are one of the available clutches for the Magnum. And these brand are well proven in our V160 6speed world. Joel Grannas had been abusing that trans on his MKIV on the track. He made 1700rwhp , don't remember well the torque though. It is pricier than the CD009 option but I will rather go into a well proven setup for high 2JZ applications. What dismayed me on the CD009 are the clutch options. One of my friends received a Dual QuarterMaster and the other a Dual Power Train Tech clutch from the same Adapter Provider. So I believe a lot of experimentation is still going on by the providers on which is a better clutch options . And I hate to be throwing money here and there to experiment. I don't know of any using a triple yet and so truly the CD009 being tested on a high 2JZ application is no where to be found yet. Both CD009 applications on the MKIV and 240SX of my friends are so noisy.. like a tractor . After hearing both cars , that made my decision not to go with CD009. Main thing is it is because of the available clutches. The twin disks provided have button flywheels ... nothing to absorb the harmonic distortion of the crankshaft which can be very harmful to the transmission also.
Tremec (T56) Magnum will be your best bet on your Vette and SC . After having helped and seen my two buddies with the CD009 and their twin clutches on their cars one a MKIV and another a 240sx , I have finally made up my mind that the CD009 is not the way to go for me as an alternate to the V160 6 speed . I wan't to preserve the two brand new V160 I bought before they were discontinued as reserved for my V160 cars. In light of my desire to convert one of my SCs from auto to 6speed , I bought a new Tremec (T56) Magnum ($3050) which can hold 700 ft.lbs of torque at stock configuration .. got it built (some better parts replaced and added , CRYOed, REMed) and now can hold +900 ft.lbs. at least on paper. The V160 6 speed on paper is only rated below 500 ft.lbs. . The available clutches and having been proven at high 2JZ application were my deciding factors. ClutchMasters are one of the available clutches for the Magnum. And these brand are well proven in our V160 6speed world. Joel Grannas had been abusing that trans on his MKIV on the track. He made 1700rwhp , don't remember well the torque though. It is pricier than the CD009 option but I will rather go into a well proven setup for high 2JZ applications. What dismayed me on the CD009 are the clutch options. One of my friends received a Dual QuarterMaster and the other a Dual Power Train Tech clutch from the same Adapter Provider. So I believe a lot of experimentation is still going on by the providers on which is a better clutch options . And I hate to be throwing money here and there to experiment. I don't know of any using a triple yet and so truly the CD009 being tested on a high 2JZ application is no where to be found yet. Both CD009 applications on the MKIV and 240SX of my friends are so noisy.. like a tractor . After hearing both cars , that made my decision not to go with CD009. Main thing is it is because of the available clutches. The twin disks provided have button flywheels ... nothing to absorb the harmonic distortion of the crankshaft which can be very harmful to the transmission also.
09-12-16, 03:04 PM
#249
I was just looking at that Grannas setup today, looks totally top notch! But at a price 3 times what I paid for my entire car, I think it's also fair to say it's simply priced out of many peoples budget (including me). The CD009 and AR5 options are more affordable oprtions. Sure they may have their drawbacks just like anything does, but in the end I think it's just awesome that we are actually seeing several options coming out now! I agree, the CD009 swap is still a work in progress. But I would say it's generally improving, so hard to knock folks for continuously improving their product. The AR5 swap is catching on a lot in the IS community which is really cool. The T6060 seems like an absolute beautiful option if your wallet can support it.
09-12-16, 03:13 PM
#250
Thanks for posting the info, I am sure it will help others. Yeah I have been thinking that the T-56 is the way to go for me lately, I know both will have their issues so its just a matter of budget and what you want to deal with. I don't think they are that much different in price, New for new the cd009 is almost 2k vs the T-56 magnum coming in closer to 3k. both need bellhousing adapters, clutch kit, custom cross member and driveshaft so I figure those are more or less of a wash but maybe a little pricier on the T-56.
I dunno why but I feel its more risky going with a used T-56 versus a used Cd009, with the Cd009 I wouldnt be that bothered with going with a used unit cause really on a stock car they are way overbuilt, but with the T-56 they are usually behind quite a bit of power and I think a few bad mis shifts can cause problems so I think I would go for a new one, but there are good deals on used viper ones out there but I figure they would require a rebuild. I think rated at 700 torque would be more than enough for me so I wouldn't have to have it further built, and I am sure it probably holds more than what its rated for anyways... also on a 2JZ the power comes on more gradually than it does on a v8 which goes from nothing to everything right away, so I bet that helps with longevity also.
I dunno why but I feel its more risky going with a used T-56 versus a used Cd009, with the Cd009 I wouldnt be that bothered with going with a used unit cause really on a stock car they are way overbuilt, but with the T-56 they are usually behind quite a bit of power and I think a few bad mis shifts can cause problems so I think I would go for a new one, but there are good deals on used viper ones out there but I figure they would require a rebuild. I think rated at 700 torque would be more than enough for me so I wouldn't have to have it further built, and I am sure it probably holds more than what its rated for anyways... also on a 2JZ the power comes on more gradually than it does on a v8 which goes from nothing to everything right away, so I bet that helps with longevity also.
09-12-16, 03:31 PM
#251
Halon - based on my computations , price is not triple and not even double in costs if you factor in same stuff (apples to apples) you buy for both setups.
Ali - If I were you I will go with a brand new T56 Magnum for $3050 . You are right it is always a risk going with a used transmission cause you have no idea of how it has been used.
When it comes to price , you said it right. A new CD009 is $2k and a new T56 Magnum is $3050. It only goes higher when you want more bells and whistles. But the $3050 T56 Magnum which on paper is rated 700ft.lbs is more than enough for most. The V160 is rated on paper less than 500ft.lbs and the CD009 is even lower I believe. In practice , all of them can hold more. Transmission price difference is accounted for by the strength of the transmission (amount of torque one can hold) and being more proven in usage. The T56 Magnum is used in a lot of torque monster domestics cars for their aftermarket transmissions. Then you have a lot of good Clutch options available. So the $1k price difference is well worth it.
You will have other stuff to buy on both like adapters for one and bell housing for the other . For both you will need trans mount, shifter relocation. driveshaft, differential and clutches. If you buy same stuff (brand and model) for both applications , you are spending same amount. Of course if the clutch of one is the inferior kind, it will be cheaper. Or if one is a second hand transmission , it will be cheaper. Got to compare apple to apples. You get what you pay for. Like the prices of ClutchMaster clutches for V160 or T56 either dual or triple are almost of same prices cause you are getting same quality.
It is really a matter of knowing where to get them and I have sourced them out already for the T56 Magnum. At the moment , the CD009 do not even have any good dual or triple clutch you can really call street friendly in which NVH (noise , vibration , harshness) is factored in. So truly I really don't think there is a big price difference between the two setups considering one is a lot more superior. There is no doubt that one is better proven than the other when it comes to the 2JZ high hp application. And take note you do more work on the CD009 option (T56 Magnum with the right parts is now drop in on a MKIV and SC) , then more parts to put together means more parts that can fail like you need a flexplate , a spacer just to put a button flywheel type dual clutch which honestly I was like in a tractor after riding in those two cars. It may not be same in a single clutch application but when you go double to handle more torque .. so far I haven't seen or haven't heard any good feedback on a 2JZ high torque application.
Ali - If I were you I will go with a brand new T56 Magnum for $3050 . You are right it is always a risk going with a used transmission cause you have no idea of how it has been used.
When it comes to price , you said it right. A new CD009 is $2k and a new T56 Magnum is $3050. It only goes higher when you want more bells and whistles. But the $3050 T56 Magnum which on paper is rated 700ft.lbs is more than enough for most. The V160 is rated on paper less than 500ft.lbs and the CD009 is even lower I believe. In practice , all of them can hold more. Transmission price difference is accounted for by the strength of the transmission (amount of torque one can hold) and being more proven in usage. The T56 Magnum is used in a lot of torque monster domestics cars for their aftermarket transmissions. Then you have a lot of good Clutch options available. So the $1k price difference is well worth it.
You will have other stuff to buy on both like adapters for one and bell housing for the other . For both you will need trans mount, shifter relocation. driveshaft, differential and clutches. If you buy same stuff (brand and model) for both applications , you are spending same amount. Of course if the clutch of one is the inferior kind, it will be cheaper. Or if one is a second hand transmission , it will be cheaper. Got to compare apple to apples. You get what you pay for. Like the prices of ClutchMaster clutches for V160 or T56 either dual or triple are almost of same prices cause you are getting same quality.
It is really a matter of knowing where to get them and I have sourced them out already for the T56 Magnum. At the moment , the CD009 do not even have any good dual or triple clutch you can really call street friendly in which NVH (noise , vibration , harshness) is factored in. So truly I really don't think there is a big price difference between the two setups considering one is a lot more superior. There is no doubt that one is better proven than the other when it comes to the 2JZ high hp application. And take note you do more work on the CD009 option (T56 Magnum with the right parts is now drop in on a MKIV and SC) , then more parts to put together means more parts that can fail like you need a flexplate , a spacer just to put a button flywheel type dual clutch which honestly I was like in a tractor after riding in those two cars. It may not be same in a single clutch application but when you go double to handle more torque .. so far I haven't seen or haven't heard any good feedback on a 2JZ high torque application.
Last edited by gerrb; 09-12-16 at 04:19 PM.
09-12-16, 05:22 PM
#253
My bad, I got you !
Snap shot Comparison of the CURRENT T56 Magnum and CD009 options :
A) $3050 for a Brand New T56 Magnum , $600 Bellhousing , $500 for shifter relocation, trans cross member can be fabricated , then source the driveshaft and the kind of clutch (single, dual , triple) you want based on application.
b) $2000 for a Brand New CD009 , Adapter $499 or more if you need a J1 bellhousing or flexplate / adapter , $300 for Shifter Relocation ,trans cross member / mount can be fabricated , then source the driveshaft and clutch (single, dual , triple) you want based on application.
* T56 Magnum (stock) is rated on paper double the torque specs compared to CD009 or even V160. Though all these can support more .
* T56 Magnum is now well proven in high 2JZ application . So far none for the CD009 on a high 2JZ application.
* T56 Magnum has good options for well proven clutches , most specially for those who need dual or triple clutches. And they are streetable meaning you don't get a lot of noise, vibration or harshness. No one likes a noisy transmission when cruising or idling or changing gears. Heck not on a CD009 dual , it is like riding on a tractor on the two cars I helped my buddies build. Both adapters came from same company and they sent different brand of dual clutches. Looks like the company is experimenting on the dual and triple clutches for the 2JZ application.
* In high torque applications where you need at least a dual clutch ,on a CD009 you need a lot of parts fit together just to make the clutch work like a flex plate, adapter then the button flywheel and its clutches. More parts put together , more parts to fail. There is no mass on the button flywheel to absorb the harmonic distortion / vibration from the crankshaft. One of the many reasons why it is so noisy like a tractor. All that vibration is transferred to the internals of the transmission which if you ask any good transmission builder can be detrimental. Where as on the clutches of a T56 Magnum dual or triple like the proven ClutchMasters, the starter gears are on the flywheel. It has more mass. More weight to absorb the vibration from the crankshaft.
* Less work for the T56 Magnum setup since with the bellhousing and like stock shifter , it is a drop in on the MKIV and SC. On the CD009 you will have to either cut your trans bellhousing or bang that tunnel.
The PROS and CONS stated above AT LEAST FOR NOW , more than justify the price difference WHICH IS NOT EVEN MUCH between a T56 Magnum and CD009 setup . The T56 Magnum is definitely a lot lot more superior and It is WELL WORTH IT in my opinion.
If you want more Torque like +900 ft.lbs. then you still have the option to build the T56 Magnum transmission . But 99% of end users surely won't even go beyond the stock T56 Magnum capability of 700 ft.lbs. so no point of spending more if you are not in that category . It has always been true , time and again , people who taste a certain power wants more and more after and the T56 Magnum has a lot of support and room to grow.
Well, transmission prices changes if you decide to go with second hand transmissions. The risks will always be there with second hand transmission especially in high hp / torque applications. If you don't need at least a dual disk , a second hand CD009 maybe a lot cheaper setup.and probably will work for many. For higher applications , a T56 Magnum will be more desirable.
Snap shot Comparison of the CURRENT T56 Magnum and CD009 options :
A) $3050 for a Brand New T56 Magnum , $600 Bellhousing , $500 for shifter relocation, trans cross member can be fabricated , then source the driveshaft and the kind of clutch (single, dual , triple) you want based on application.
b) $2000 for a Brand New CD009 , Adapter $499 or more if you need a J1 bellhousing or flexplate / adapter , $300 for Shifter Relocation ,trans cross member / mount can be fabricated , then source the driveshaft and clutch (single, dual , triple) you want based on application.
* T56 Magnum (stock) is rated on paper double the torque specs compared to CD009 or even V160. Though all these can support more .
* T56 Magnum is now well proven in high 2JZ application . So far none for the CD009 on a high 2JZ application.
* T56 Magnum has good options for well proven clutches , most specially for those who need dual or triple clutches. And they are streetable meaning you don't get a lot of noise, vibration or harshness. No one likes a noisy transmission when cruising or idling or changing gears. Heck not on a CD009 dual , it is like riding on a tractor on the two cars I helped my buddies build. Both adapters came from same company and they sent different brand of dual clutches. Looks like the company is experimenting on the dual and triple clutches for the 2JZ application.
* In high torque applications where you need at least a dual clutch ,on a CD009 you need a lot of parts fit together just to make the clutch work like a flex plate, adapter then the button flywheel and its clutches. More parts put together , more parts to fail. There is no mass on the button flywheel to absorb the harmonic distortion / vibration from the crankshaft. One of the many reasons why it is so noisy like a tractor. All that vibration is transferred to the internals of the transmission which if you ask any good transmission builder can be detrimental. Where as on the clutches of a T56 Magnum dual or triple like the proven ClutchMasters, the starter gears are on the flywheel. It has more mass. More weight to absorb the vibration from the crankshaft.
* Less work for the T56 Magnum setup since with the bellhousing and like stock shifter , it is a drop in on the MKIV and SC. On the CD009 you will have to either cut your trans bellhousing or bang that tunnel.
The PROS and CONS stated above AT LEAST FOR NOW , more than justify the price difference WHICH IS NOT EVEN MUCH between a T56 Magnum and CD009 setup . The T56 Magnum is definitely a lot lot more superior and It is WELL WORTH IT in my opinion.
If you want more Torque like +900 ft.lbs. then you still have the option to build the T56 Magnum transmission . But 99% of end users surely won't even go beyond the stock T56 Magnum capability of 700 ft.lbs. so no point of spending more if you are not in that category . It has always been true , time and again , people who taste a certain power wants more and more after and the T56 Magnum has a lot of support and room to grow.
Well, transmission prices changes if you decide to go with second hand transmissions. The risks will always be there with second hand transmission especially in high hp / torque applications. If you don't need at least a dual disk , a second hand CD009 maybe a lot cheaper setup.and probably will work for many. For higher applications , a T56 Magnum will be more desirable.
Last edited by gerrb; 09-12-16 at 07:36 PM.
09-12-16, 08:56 PM
#254
I'm not trying to argue. Just that here's what I see. Grannas out the door package with the new trans, a driveshaft, and 800tq twin disc is $8250.
Collins a340 kit with driveshaft and 800tq twin disc is $3300, add $2000 for a new trans and you're at $5300.
im going to assume both kits require some misc piece part type stuff you'll have to purchase. For example the Collins kit you need a j1 bell housing (got mine for $20), a t56 TOB (think I paid like $50 or something for mine), some misc fittings to connect an AN clutch line to your master cylinder, etc. I'd assume the Grannas requires some misc extra piece parts, or maybe I'm wrong and it truly is 100% complete. None the less, even a couple hundred in piece parts for Collins and nada for Grannas, you're still at a $2700-$3000 price difference.
The Cd009 gets even cheaper with the abundant availability of low mile used transmissions for under $1k. This is a real question, but how abundant and easy to find locally are used TR6060's?
I really like the TR6060 swap. Just at my first glance it does seem to be significantly more expensive, and I can see that being a drawback to some who are on a budget.
Collins a340 kit with driveshaft and 800tq twin disc is $3300, add $2000 for a new trans and you're at $5300.
im going to assume both kits require some misc piece part type stuff you'll have to purchase. For example the Collins kit you need a j1 bell housing (got mine for $20), a t56 TOB (think I paid like $50 or something for mine), some misc fittings to connect an AN clutch line to your master cylinder, etc. I'd assume the Grannas requires some misc extra piece parts, or maybe I'm wrong and it truly is 100% complete. None the less, even a couple hundred in piece parts for Collins and nada for Grannas, you're still at a $2700-$3000 price difference.
The Cd009 gets even cheaper with the abundant availability of low mile used transmissions for under $1k. This is a real question, but how abundant and easy to find locally are used TR6060's?
I really like the TR6060 swap. Just at my first glance it does seem to be significantly more expensive, and I can see that being a drawback to some who are on a budget.
09-13-16, 02:57 AM
#255
You are comparing apples to oranges .... price is not all what matters . Quality for me is more important than price. I equally consider the ease of install, the driving experience you get out of the product and the reliability of the product and its maintenance.
I am not disputing the fact that the CD009 setup is a cheaper solution. What I am laying out is for the price difference , since overall quality of both solutions are miles apart , one might as well save and go for the other when it comes to high 2JZ applications. The CD009 solution isn't there yet I dare to say. Will it ever be there when it comes to high 2JZ applications , only time will tell . One thing sure for now , the trans alone are not even comparable based on where and how they are used now.
1) Trans specs alone .. one is rated 700 ft.lbs at stock form and the other 350 ft.lbs at stock form. You can't expect a better product to be cheaper. Exactly the reason one is used in aftermarket high hp applications of production cars.
2) Twin disc that I have seen so far for the CD009 and we have installed were Power Train Tech or Quarter Master . Are you saying they are as good and reliable as the Clutch Masters we have been using in the V160 world ? Not even close that is the reason you hardly see them used in the MKIVs.Try going for a 200 mile ride with a friend on the passenger seat, lmaol, on a 2JZ with a CD009 with those clutches. Then take out the clutches and check. There is a reason why the clutches are cheaper than the Clutch Masters. The NVH on that transmission setup with a dual clutch doesn't even make the car streetable meaning enjoyable in a 200 mile cruising trip with a number of stop and go within city limits. If you can stand it , then you should be a trooper , lmaol. Even from the few feedbacks from people on SF who are using dual disks with the CD009, I can't say they are good feedbacks.
The other parts as Ali said , drive shaft , differential and others will all be same. It is a matter of quality.. one or the other maybe cheaper .. again what is the quality ? Compare the shifter relocation kit from Collins and the shifter relocation kit from Sikky used on the T56 Magnum for the MKIV / SC ? Quality .. NO comparison. Bellhousing is really meant for the 2JZ / T56 ... for the CD009 is a rigged combination to make one fit the other. Quality ?... NO comparison . To fit in a dual disk clutch , one is rigged meaning needs a flexplate , adapter to make up for the extra space in between clutch and crankshaft , the other no. In high RPM applications like those revving to 9-10k , I wonder which one breaks first , one with so many parts put together just to make things work or the other that were meant for each other.
I am just laying out here that one maybe more expensive but it is a lot better . They cannot be compared to one another. Got to look at the overall picture . We tend to say , oh I am just going for this then the next day you see them tearing apart what they have and installing something else either because they are not happy , or it failed or they want more. There is no dispute on the costs. Collins solution is cheaper but you get what you pay for. It has been proven time and again , people are never satisfied when they build a car. They want more tomorrow. So the saying Build it Once but Right is something always to be considered in my opinion.
I know you can get cheaper second hand CD009 , but just like I said , the two setups are not even on the same league .An inferior product / solution will always be cheaper. Why you think second hand V160 are at $7500 ? It is all about what it can do and its quality.
And note Grannas Racing is not the only provider of the said solution. Even if I take your own numbers $8250 for a T56 Magnum setup and $5200 for a Collins setup , knowing that the transmission and clutch alone are not even close in quality in terms of what they can handle , not considering the ease of install ,quality of driving experience from the product and their reliability , I will wait and save till I have the money to get the $8250 solution knowing that it is a more superior solution. It has been proven in high hp 2JZ application and has lots of potential for growth. Maybe in the future the CD009 solution can get better but I am laying out facts for those looking for a more reliable solution right now ... what their options are.
I know the price difference maybe a lot for others or the solution is not for all. Only a few are building a high 2JZ application. But when I see people install the Collins setup then they complain about so many things or tear it apart , changing things because things do not work well , or it breaks after a limited use , for me it is worth while to wait a bit , save and go for the better solution . You also have more room to grow since the T56 Magnum can be built to handle even more.
At this point in time , having helped install two CD009 setups with dual disks clutches , having ridden in them for hundred of cruising miles , taken them out and see what the hell is all the noise about and see how the clutches looks like , there is no way I would recommend a CD009 with the dual disk clutches they have now . These cars were not even brought to the drag strip and one of them is a brand new CD009. I will rather spend more to get a better solution. Jacks Transmission who builds a lot of V160s and high hp transmissions had said that these kind of clutches that has no mass to absorb the harmonic vibrations from the engine / crankshaft are very harsh on the internals of the transmission. That vibration is transfered to the gears of the transmissions. You can't expect the transmission to last long. For the sake of quality and reliability tests , I hate to see those CD009 dual disks setup on a 2JZ abused on the drag strip just like the way Joel Grannas abuse his V160 or T56 Magnum .
I am not disputing the fact that the CD009 setup is a cheaper solution. What I am laying out is for the price difference , since overall quality of both solutions are miles apart , one might as well save and go for the other when it comes to high 2JZ applications. The CD009 solution isn't there yet I dare to say. Will it ever be there when it comes to high 2JZ applications , only time will tell . One thing sure for now , the trans alone are not even comparable based on where and how they are used now.
1) Trans specs alone .. one is rated 700 ft.lbs at stock form and the other 350 ft.lbs at stock form. You can't expect a better product to be cheaper. Exactly the reason one is used in aftermarket high hp applications of production cars.
2) Twin disc that I have seen so far for the CD009 and we have installed were Power Train Tech or Quarter Master . Are you saying they are as good and reliable as the Clutch Masters we have been using in the V160 world ? Not even close that is the reason you hardly see them used in the MKIVs.Try going for a 200 mile ride with a friend on the passenger seat, lmaol, on a 2JZ with a CD009 with those clutches. Then take out the clutches and check. There is a reason why the clutches are cheaper than the Clutch Masters. The NVH on that transmission setup with a dual clutch doesn't even make the car streetable meaning enjoyable in a 200 mile cruising trip with a number of stop and go within city limits. If you can stand it , then you should be a trooper , lmaol. Even from the few feedbacks from people on SF who are using dual disks with the CD009, I can't say they are good feedbacks.
The other parts as Ali said , drive shaft , differential and others will all be same. It is a matter of quality.. one or the other maybe cheaper .. again what is the quality ? Compare the shifter relocation kit from Collins and the shifter relocation kit from Sikky used on the T56 Magnum for the MKIV / SC ? Quality .. NO comparison. Bellhousing is really meant for the 2JZ / T56 ... for the CD009 is a rigged combination to make one fit the other. Quality ?... NO comparison . To fit in a dual disk clutch , one is rigged meaning needs a flexplate , adapter to make up for the extra space in between clutch and crankshaft , the other no. In high RPM applications like those revving to 9-10k , I wonder which one breaks first , one with so many parts put together just to make things work or the other that were meant for each other.
I am just laying out here that one maybe more expensive but it is a lot better . They cannot be compared to one another. Got to look at the overall picture . We tend to say , oh I am just going for this then the next day you see them tearing apart what they have and installing something else either because they are not happy , or it failed or they want more. There is no dispute on the costs. Collins solution is cheaper but you get what you pay for. It has been proven time and again , people are never satisfied when they build a car. They want more tomorrow. So the saying Build it Once but Right is something always to be considered in my opinion.
I know you can get cheaper second hand CD009 , but just like I said , the two setups are not even on the same league .An inferior product / solution will always be cheaper. Why you think second hand V160 are at $7500 ? It is all about what it can do and its quality.
And note Grannas Racing is not the only provider of the said solution. Even if I take your own numbers $8250 for a T56 Magnum setup and $5200 for a Collins setup , knowing that the transmission and clutch alone are not even close in quality in terms of what they can handle , not considering the ease of install ,quality of driving experience from the product and their reliability , I will wait and save till I have the money to get the $8250 solution knowing that it is a more superior solution. It has been proven in high hp 2JZ application and has lots of potential for growth. Maybe in the future the CD009 solution can get better but I am laying out facts for those looking for a more reliable solution right now ... what their options are.
I know the price difference maybe a lot for others or the solution is not for all. Only a few are building a high 2JZ application. But when I see people install the Collins setup then they complain about so many things or tear it apart , changing things because things do not work well , or it breaks after a limited use , for me it is worth while to wait a bit , save and go for the better solution . You also have more room to grow since the T56 Magnum can be built to handle even more.
At this point in time , having helped install two CD009 setups with dual disks clutches , having ridden in them for hundred of cruising miles , taken them out and see what the hell is all the noise about and see how the clutches looks like , there is no way I would recommend a CD009 with the dual disk clutches they have now . These cars were not even brought to the drag strip and one of them is a brand new CD009. I will rather spend more to get a better solution. Jacks Transmission who builds a lot of V160s and high hp transmissions had said that these kind of clutches that has no mass to absorb the harmonic vibrations from the engine / crankshaft are very harsh on the internals of the transmission. That vibration is transfered to the gears of the transmissions. You can't expect the transmission to last long. For the sake of quality and reliability tests , I hate to see those CD009 dual disks setup on a 2JZ abused on the drag strip just like the way Joel Grannas abuse his V160 or T56 Magnum .
Last edited by gerrb; 09-13-16 at 07:38 AM.