t2d2

iTrader: (8)

Again, I get what you're saying, and I commend you for obviously knowing a lot about the topic. But, I feel you're still missing my point that wheel design is every bit as important as low offset wheel vs spacer. The low offset wheel is going to push its spokes further out and possibly require more bracing to be as structurally sound. Until you can take that into account (my previous point about needing to see data comparing all the variables), there's no way to definitively state anything about spacers' relative impact. As I said, you're focusing on just one half of the equation, assuming the other half is a constant, which it isn't.

3L4jzz31

iTrader: (2)

I was speaking about wheels (multi piece) that maintain the same face but simply move location based on the offset as that creates a constant design and weight of the wheel.

The wheels you speak of with different concavities based on the offset are not going to have the same weight and distribution of it because the greater concavity the more material used for the face. This type of wheel would not satisfy your own criteria for a wheel that is the same in all aspects except for offset.

In this case you would find the difference in weight of the wheel + spacer w/ higher offset vs the weight of a lower offset wheel, find the location of the center of gravity and calculate the overall difference between the 2 in wheel rate and you will be able to find the effective difference between the two and then plug in for the differences that occur in a dynamic situation. But again you're not playing with a constant set of wheels like originally talked about

t2d2

iTrader: (8)

Well, you got me there, as I have no experience with multi-piece wheels. That's somewhat beyond the scope of the general wheel vs spacer recommendation, though, isn't it?

That's exactly the sort of answer I was looking for! Not so much the answer itself as the full picture nature of it, showing just how many variables there are. I concede that spacers may well be worse off on average than a similar offset wheel, but such recommendations should be followed by a lengthy disclaimer or they're potentially misleading.

3L4jzz31

iTrader: (2)

1) It doesn't necessarily have to be w/ multi piece wheels, multi piece wheels just provided a simpler example wheel (I thought), you could also use certain wheels that are one piece such as Work xd9s that have a concave face but based on the offset it has more or less of a "lip".

2) I agree that the "spacers are bad" should be taken with a grain of salt, that's why I beileve people generally don't think much of a small spacer (~5mm range) but once it starts to get much bigger then it'll have a true impact.

Hopefully anybody with future questions about spacers can happen across this thread in a search.

t2d2

iTrader: (8)

Agreed, thanks for the lively and educational debate!

Ali SC3

iTrader: (10)

T2d2 this is as close as the right answer as you can get given by 3L4jzz31 above.

when you use a spacer on the wheel you are pushing the wheel face out which is going to also push the inside tire edge further out, with 25mm spacers on the rear you have now increased the rear wheel distance by 2". you have achieved the "offset" you are looking for, but the resting location of the tire on the ground is actually pushed out compared to stock and it creates an angle on the control arms which does not leave the suspension at its perfect rest point. remember the uppers and lower create an arc of movement, as the wheel goes up and down it follows the arc not a straight line. When you push it out you are likely now resting in a position which is not perfectly balanced, but where the suspension has settled partly up like its taking a small shock except thats where you ride all the time now on the arc, the non neutral part. you have now limited your uptravel and changed your dynamic handling, especially when you hit a bump instead of being in the neutral position of the arc and having an inch or so where it doesn't change the angle too much, you are already on the art of the arc where it changes the camber/caster more drastically as soon as you contact something. also the weight being extended more towards the outside (effectively increasing the wheel base via spacers) is more towards the outside of the car which can arguably put more stress the wheel bearings over time (hard to prove).

this is a similar problem to the up front alignment and twitchy steering issues you get when you lower the car. when you lower these cars, it changes the resting point on the arc of the control arms in a similar matter. as you may be familiar with it takes an alignment and then when you hit bumps that wheel sort of wants to bumpsteer, and then you wonder why did it not do that when I was stock?? well now you know why. this is why professionals then get custom arms and adjustments to bring back in the factory handling on a lower car.

now granted 25mm isn't mindblowing or anything, but you have essentially increased your wheel width by 2" without adjusting the length of your control arms. an alignment can correct somewhat and give you a stable ride (correct static numbers), that is until you hit a bump and then it will dynamically react worse than it would have with the proper wheels. that being said I have run 25mm on the rear before and its not super noticeable, but running the right wheels on the rear after doing that I can tell you the right wheels was much better, especially with sprited driving its just more predictable.

when you get the right size wheel and offset, the face is pushed out but the wheel is not, meaning the wheel base is mostly the same. this is going to conserve more of the original angles in the suspension design while allowing for more width/offset and is the correct way to do it.

here is a crude diagram from a cressida showing the arc I am talking about. they even make a block to correct it.

t2d2

iTrader: (8)

I stopped reading at that point because you're comparing apples to oranges. The whole point was comparing two setups with identical wheel placement relative to the fender, one via lower offset and the other via high offset and a spacer. The inside edge of the tire will be identically positioned in both cases. I'm pretty sure we're all in agreement that simply adding a spacer changes the geometry.

Ali SC3

iTrader: (10)

ok I see if you limit the comparison to that there isn't a whole lot of difference, but why make that comparison when no one makes a wheel thats 7-8" wide with such an aggressive offset? so its not really fair to make that comparison unless there is such a skinny wheel with a 25mm larger offset readily available. its not a normal type of wheel width/offset combination.

I mean who would buy a wheel that is the same width as stock but the face pushed out 25mm or more, whats the point? it looks good from the side? it wont look good from the rear or front I can tell you that. when you go more aggressive in offset you should increase the width to maintain closer to original geometry and contact patch with the ground. it also looks good on our cars from the rear as it fills it out.

Its all good though if people want to use spacers go ahead and use them. anything over 10mm consider getting the adapters with the built in studs, they hold up better than changing out your stock studs.
If you do some carefull planning though, you can have the best of look and fit, and not worry about spacers and checking the torque on them every so often.

t2d2

iTrader: (8)

I feel like you just introduced a ton of new variables into the discussion. Who said anything about only stock wheels? I thought we're simply talking about wheel vs spacer and a flush fit with the fender?

If we're talking about wider wheels and tires, then:

a) that extra weight has to also be considered vs the weight/geometry issue of spacers, and

b) the cost of spacers should be removed from the table, as the extra cost of wider tires will more than offset it.

Ali SC3

iTrader: (10)

by stock I meant stock like, as in they are skinny and have sunken offsets. it would be rare to find the same wheel with a more agressive offset unless it was like on an awd car. Didn't mean to derail the discussion just want to bring light to when pushing the wheel out it helps to get a wider wheel at the same time, its almost like the SC is designed for it, but you can fit lots of things in there yes, and they will all drive forward etc..

myLEXsc400

dear God, why did you put that cheap LED strip on the light? lol
I would rather put a spacer on the stock wheels then run these wheels that were made for FWD cars