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Meth injection usage on a stock IS350?

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Old 10-11-12, 05:59 AM   #16
mikellucci
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jgbackes View Post
In the old days, the MAF was a heated nichrome wire. The air passing over it cooled the wire and the ECU could compute the amount of air being delivered past the throttle body (TB).

If you put the meth/water (MW) injector in front of the MAF, will it notice that there is more/cooler air going past? One of the photos I saw put the injector after the MAF and before the TB. What's the best location?
Thats a great question and I honestly do not know the answer for this application. We are thinking along the same lines though....just Tuesday I ordered an oem MAF from eBay to play around with.

If you have suggestions I'd love to hear them!
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Old 10-11-12, 07:52 AM   #17
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Also another note/question... The statement about meth not adding more oxygen to the intake charge... cooling the air in effect makes it more dense. Cooler denser air has more oxygen content. Its the same reason cars perform better in cold air vs hot air.. cooler denser air introduces more oxygen to the charge, and ecu compensates with more fuel. But I assume the ecu can only compensate so much without tuning, and could possibly run into a lean situation.
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Old 10-11-12, 08:02 AM   #18
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The ECU is* tuning. It tunes basically perfect up to 7 lbs of boost! I cannot get this thing to run LEAN no matter what I try Naturally Aspirated.

The basic statements made regarding denser air equalling more air are true but Injection isnt generally classified as "more forced air" like NOS or forced induction.

I'm hung up on the stock ecu's ability or inability to utilize higher octane...the point that Kurtz's brought up. I'll be logging timing, duty cycles, etc. ASAP to hopefully arrive at a conclusion.
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Old 10-11-12, 01:46 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikellucci View Post
The ECU is* tuning. It tunes basically perfect up to 7 lbs of boost! I cannot get this thing to run LEAN no matter what I try Naturally Aspirated.

The basic statements made regarding denser air equalling more air are true but Injection isnt generally classified as "more forced air" like NOS or forced induction.

I'm hung up on the stock ecu's ability or inability to utilize higher octane...the point that Kurtz's brought up. I'll be logging timing, duty cycles, etc. ASAP to hopefully arrive at a conclusion.
Nice... looking forward to seeing the results.
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Old 10-11-12, 05:55 PM   #20
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I assume the meth injector itself is installed into the intake tubing using a bung? Will you be testing pre and post MAF settings? Has anyone tried moving the MAF sensor itself closer to the TB? Just curious.
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Old 10-15-12, 09:08 PM   #21
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Do not spray through the MAF. MAP, AIT is fine. If you use this on an N/A setup, run more methanol. You probably won't need the EGT reduction as much as you will the extra fuel.
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Old 10-16-12, 07:45 AM   #22
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Ehh, its not looking so great on N/A daily driving. My MPG is down to an average of 14.6 (vs 20 w/out spray). This point alone leads me to believe the ECU is seeing pig rich conditions and doesnt care. Timing isnt advancing but not being pulled either. IAT are down even further an average of 10 degrees which should def. equate to more aggressive output...but its not... SIGH I'm not ready to draw a final conclusion just yet but right now its looking like our ECU could give two *****s about increased octane benefits the 50% methanol is providing.

Perhaps the 3.25" ID intake I'm using is too large? My spray nozzle GPH is quite small, wouldnt want to try any smaller on that front so thats ruled out. Not real sure anything can really be done at this point aside from using water/meth to cool IATs if conditions warrant. Sort of like a push button water spray kit. LOL Spraying at WOT isnt proving out any performance benefits in my current environment just yet. I'm going to stick a 3" ID pipe in and see if I can change anything... doubtful.. discouraged... I want forced induction back!

Pics of the intake design I am using are in my thread for those that had questions.CLICK

Click the image to open in full size.
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Old 10-16-12, 02:15 PM   #23
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^I couldn't tell from the dark pic above...where is the point in the intake where the meth is being injected AND is it at a 90 degree angle or an upstream angle or downstream?

Nevermind...found out myself :

Click the image to open in full size.
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Old 10-16-12, 02:21 PM   #24
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Just did some quick research about nozzle angle into the air stream, and came up with this info from Devilsown :

"Placing the injection nozzle as far from the cylinders as possible on the intake charge pipe allows for the water/methanol mixture to be better absorbed into the intake air charge. This allows for greater distribution into to each cylinder, creating the coolest possible air charge."

Any consideration of adjusting the nozzle placement on the tube to closer to the filter-end of the pipe?
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Old 10-16-12, 02:28 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gville350 View Post
"Placing the injection nozzle as far from the cylinders as possible on the intake charge pipe allows for the water/methanol mixture to be better absorbed into the intake air charge. This allows for greater distribution into to each cylinder, creating the coolest possible air charge."

Any consideration of adjusting the nozzle placement on the tube to closer to the filter-end of the pipe?
Sparing all the details: That holds true for the forced induction world...unfortuantely it wont make much difference here with N/A. I suspect with not enough air flow it would just trickle out down the pipe. lol

ANd 'm not putting the nozzle Pre.Maf, it will freak out bigtime.

On my STi running 23 psi I had a dual nozzle setup and best believe it was all vapor by the time it reached the Intake Mani! Here...not so much even with 7psi on the S/C setup.
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Old 10-16-12, 06:16 PM   #26
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Unless you move your MAF to right after the intake down in the fenderwell it looks like, moving the nozzle won't do you much good on any front, and like mike said, you might not have enough flow to distribute, depending on your IM setup.
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Old 10-17-12, 05:50 PM   #27
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My next thought...could the power loss be due to too much of a jet on the feed? Just too much meth?
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Old 10-17-12, 05:53 PM   #28
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Yes, if you are running rich then you are spraying too much methanol.
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Old 10-17-12, 06:32 PM   #29
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Normally, yes. But I've taken careful consideration to ensure that I'm spraying next to nothing in terms of overall GPH compared to the airflow and displacement of our application.

Without stating any other obvious points of consideration ill just say that NO, I'm not spraying too much!

The all but conclusive finding is what I previously stated - the car isn't seeing any added benefit of the increased octane the 50% meth is providing. It doesn't know what to do with it so it just sees RICH. I could go on but there's no need right now until I look at a few other details.
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Old 10-18-12, 08:31 PM   #30
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If figure you what you are doing since you've got a kit on another vehicle of yours. I just have to ask as it's all new to me.

What other possible factors are you thinking of looking into?
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Old 10-18-12, 08:31 PM
 
 
 
 
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