Joez intake concerns...
05-31-06, 03:39 PM
#46
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They gave examples, not specifics. We dont know how much power their intake makes with that engine, and we dont know how much its losing because of heat. It simply cannot be compared to the IS. It is a different intake, different engine, and different gains as well as losses... The fact that it is longer may actually work out to its advantage, there is more room for design improvements to negate the losses due to heat. The joez does not improve much from stock, but you do have the heat to contend with. The "idea" may be the same, the end result is not.
In an ideal situation, like when you're on a dyno, yes, the joez is better. In real-world situations, when you're in stop and go traffic, or even on the freeway with the hood closed with very little options for hot air to escape out to, i'll take the OEM setup.
Heat will dissapate through the path of least resistance. When you're on a dyno, there are multiple paths. The hood is opened, there is an abundant amount of cool ambient air which the heat can radiate out to, in addition you have large fans blowing accross the front of the car, further excellerating the heat dissappation. When you're on the road, as the under hood temps start to get hotter and hotter, the path of least resistance becomes the nice cool air flowing through the pipe. And the marginal design improvement of the Joez is IMO not enough to overcome this fact.
In an ideal situation, like when you're on a dyno, yes, the joez is better. In real-world situations, when you're in stop and go traffic, or even on the freeway with the hood closed with very little options for hot air to escape out to, i'll take the OEM setup.
Heat will dissapate through the path of least resistance. When you're on a dyno, there are multiple paths. The hood is opened, there is an abundant amount of cool ambient air which the heat can radiate out to, in addition you have large fans blowing accross the front of the car, further excellerating the heat dissappation. When you're on the road, as the under hood temps start to get hotter and hotter, the path of least resistance becomes the nice cool air flowing through the pipe. And the marginal design improvement of the Joez is IMO not enough to overcome this fact.
Last edited by Ramon; 05-31-06 at 03:46 PM.
05-31-06, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Ramon
What are you talking about... Copper, Silver and Aluminum are among the best heat conductors out there.
05-31-06, 04:39 PM
#48
Originally Posted by Ramon
They gave examples, not specifics. We dont know how much power their intake makes with that engine, and we dont know how much its losing because of heat. It simply cannot be compared to the IS. It is a different intake, different engine, and different gains as well as losses...
The fact that it is longer may actually work out to its advantage, there is more room for design improvements to negate the losses due to heat. The joez does not improve much from stock, but you do have the heat to contend with. The "idea" may be the same, the end result is not.
* http://gallery.overt.org/d/34000-2/IMG_2529.jpg
In an ideal situation, like when you're on a dyno, yes, the joez is better. In real-world situations, when you're in stop and go traffic, or even on the freeway with the hood closed with very little optiosn for hot air to escape out to, i'll take the OEM setup.
Heat will dissapate through the path of least resistance. When you're on a dyno, there are multiple paths. The hood is opened, there is an abundant amount of cool ambient air which the heat can radiate out to, in addition you have large fans blowing accross the front of the car, further excellerating the heat dissappation. When you're on the road, as the under hood temps start to get hotter and hotter, the path of least resistance becomes the nice cool air flowing through the pipe.
Anyway, I hope you see the point, but there is not much more to really add. Air takes time to warm, and in the short length of a foot, moving that fast, it doesn't heat very much.
Last edited by Lets Drive; 05-31-06 at 04:45 PM.
05-31-06, 04:41 PM
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I know you did not mention copper and silver, I brought them up to point out that aluminum is right up there with them. And while air might not be the "best" conductor of heat, when there is no where else for the heat to escape out to, it will conduct, especially as the difference in temperature between the intake charge and the intake itself is greater than anything else. If the air was moving too fast for it to pick up much heat, then the intake pipe would be pretty much just as hot at idle than it is when the car is in motion. This is not the case however, so the air is most definatly getting heated.
05-31-06, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Shinobi-X
Simply saying its different, doesn't make the info any less true. All internal combustion engines basically work along the same idea. While they may not have gave specifics to this particular car, its only fair to recognize that your idea doesn't really provide specific reason of otherwise.
A longer intake doesn't give more room for design improvement; look at individual throttle body setups*, for example. An intake is rather simple- the shortest and smoothest route, with less bends, providing the coolest air is optimal. This holds true for intercooler piping as well.
* http://gallery.overt.org/d/34000-2/IMG_2529.jpg
Well, when you are in stop and go traffic, you're not trying to make peak power (which is what most people measure), so there is no real reason to include why that has any bearing. Unless you're looking along the power curve of the engine, you really won't notice much of any difference at such low hp numbers, unless you test on a dyno. On the freeway, the velocity of air moving through the car is greater, which cools the air intake temp. On my vehicle, I watch as the intake temps drop as air passes through the intercooler at highway speeds. Running a fan in front of the car simulates that velocity of air, as your engine RPM increases- without it, it would essentially be the same as placing your car in neutral, and reving the engine for however long to prove nothing. Also, most of the hotter 'air'/heat is directed out of the exhaust system after combustion, absorbed by the oil (oil coolers), or through the rear of the radiator fans when it comes to water/coolant.
Heat doesn't just flow or sit freely in the engine bay and it also doesn't just direct itself toward cool spots in the engine. Thats why we have the exhaust, which sends most of the heat toward the bottom and back of the car, and the other systems I listed. Otherwise, cooler air still enters from under the car, or gets absorbed by numerous other parts in the engine, depending on a host of factors that really don't have much bearing on the intake air that is specifically shielded by the airbox. Yes, an aluminum tube will get hotter, but as I gave an example with moving your hand through flame, the air doesn't sit long enough to absorb a dramatic amount of heat, especially at 3k rpm on a motor with an efficient VE%.
Anyway, I hope you see the point, but there is not much more to really add. Air takes time to warm, and in the short length of a foot, moving that fast, it doesn't heat very much.
A longer intake doesn't give more room for design improvement; look at individual throttle body setups*, for example. An intake is rather simple- the shortest and smoothest route, with less bends, providing the coolest air is optimal. This holds true for intercooler piping as well.
* http://gallery.overt.org/d/34000-2/IMG_2529.jpg
Well, when you are in stop and go traffic, you're not trying to make peak power (which is what most people measure), so there is no real reason to include why that has any bearing. Unless you're looking along the power curve of the engine, you really won't notice much of any difference at such low hp numbers, unless you test on a dyno. On the freeway, the velocity of air moving through the car is greater, which cools the air intake temp. On my vehicle, I watch as the intake temps drop as air passes through the intercooler at highway speeds. Running a fan in front of the car simulates that velocity of air, as your engine RPM increases- without it, it would essentially be the same as placing your car in neutral, and reving the engine for however long to prove nothing. Also, most of the hotter 'air'/heat is directed out of the exhaust system after combustion, absorbed by the oil (oil coolers), or through the rear of the radiator fans when it comes to water/coolant.
Heat doesn't just flow or sit freely in the engine bay and it also doesn't just direct itself toward cool spots in the engine. Thats why we have the exhaust, which sends most of the heat toward the bottom and back of the car, and the other systems I listed. Otherwise, cooler air still enters from under the car, or gets absorbed by numerous other parts in the engine, depending on a host of factors that really don't have much bearing on the intake air that is specifically shielded by the airbox. Yes, an aluminum tube will get hotter, but as I gave an example with moving your hand through flame, the air doesn't sit long enough to absorb a dramatic amount of heat, especially at 3k rpm on a motor with an efficient VE%.
Anyway, I hope you see the point, but there is not much more to really add. Air takes time to warm, and in the short length of a foot, moving that fast, it doesn't heat very much.
We simply do not know how much better the aftermarket intake is than the OEM one in your example, that is my point. It may be a significant improvement over the OEM that the added heat is acceptable. The JOEZ is not a very significant improvement, so the heat issue is definatly something that needs to be considered.
I do agree that there isn't much more to add... We've basically been saying the same thing back and forth in several different ways and unless some solid numbers are available, we are not going to change each others minds. It was mentioned early in this thread that they could have had the best of both worlds by simply making the intake out of plastic, in hindsight, this would have been the best move by the manufacturer.
05-31-06, 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Ramon
I know you did not mention copper and silver, I brought them up to point out that aluminum is right up there with them. And while air might not be the "best" conductor of heat, when there is no where else for the heat to escape out to, it will conduct, especially as the difference in temperature between the intake charge and the intake itself is greater than anything else. If the air was moving too fast for it to pick up much heat, then the intake pipe would be pretty much just as hot at idle than it is when the car is in motion. This is not the case however, so the air is most definatly getting heated.
The Joe Z has the "cool factor" in that you can get colors to add some flare under the hood.
05-31-06, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by casey225
I'm not disagreeing with you that the air isn't getting heated at all. I just think that the air in the Joe Z pipe won't be as hot as the intakes which pull their air entirely from the engine bay as their intake air is pretty much the same temperature as the tube from the get go. At least the Joe Z starts with air which is cooler than the pipe and I don't think there is any way it will reach the temperature of the pipe before it reaches the throttle body. I guess that's what I've been trying to say. A better scenario would have been to make the stock pipe smooth for the entire length with the rubber insulator, then we would've had the best of both worlds! The Joe Z has the "cool factor" in that you can get colors to add some flare under the hood.
The Joe Z has the "cool factor" in that you can get colors to add some flare under the hood.I agree completely. The Joe Z is definatly better than the LMS style intakes. I'm mainly comparing it to the stock one. A smooth pipe made of rubber or plastic would definatly have been the best setup.
05-31-06, 05:57 PM
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Originally Posted by al503
Get a short aluminum pipe and heat it up. Pour some water through it. Are you trying to tell us that the water won't be warmer at the other end? .
dumb test
05-31-06, 06:09 PM
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Just my opinion
Hey gang!!
I'll try to be as unbiased as possible..!!
Ramon - I stand by my product 110%.. If you are not truly pleased with the intake design or material, please let me know and I will buy it back from you...
FYI - During testing, after many numerous short drives and Fwy drives I was able to touch the intake for quite some time after pulling over at idle and/or engine off.. After a few minutes of being OFF, your right I could not touch the intake for more than 1-2 secs...
But then again that goes for just about everything else in the Engine Compartment.
The rest of you are correct, the information in this thread is useful and makes good reading material. The fact that the thread was started this morning and is already 4 pages long shows it..
However, I think the thread title should be changed to "ALL Aluminum Intake Concerns", for cars in general..
The Joe Z Intake design has been in use successfully on the IS300 for just over 3.5 years with the same materials and design.. I took that design and transffered it over for the 2006 IS w/succes. Especially on the dyno tests.., if the independent dyno tests showed NO improvement or ZERO gains, the intake would NOT have been released, plain and simple.
I did NOT make the intake for High Horsepower Improvements, Sound Improvements or as a Engine Dress up Accessory..
Some feel that it is a waste of money and that is OK as everyone has a right to their opinion. Many are happy that they purhcased a product that Optimized the OEM set up on their IS300, IS250 and/or IS350.
All it comes down to is that, if you know what your buying & you know what it does, and it does what it says, then you should be a happy customer..
If your are still dis-pleased with the product, than that is the true concern.
Has anyone ever felt the intake suction power on any IS or any car for that matter??
The air is litterally gone is less than a blink of an eye.. and thats at idle..
When your driving or engine revving the air speed inside the intake is Dramitcally increased.. It can literally suck your arm right off.. Anyone want to give that a try??
Just becuase the intake surface gets hot at idle or after the car sits for a few minutes OFF it does NOT automatically mean that heat is transferred to the rapid air that is flowing through it when the engine is ON.. The air would probably have to hang around inside the intake for a few seconds in order to absorb heat.
If that were the case, most aluminum intakes on the market today would be causing Check Engine Lights, rough idle, power loss or engine bogging..
Correction: some intakes on the market due just that on some cars..
^^^ None of these issues have ever been reported with the Joe Z Intake on any year Lexus IS
Has anyone ever touched the intake pleminum, or the stock rubber intake, or the throttle body at idle or engine off... They are ALL EXTREMELY HOT... !!
Their a quite a few CL members with the Joe Z Intake on their IS for many years..
Even our very own CL Editor > Flipside909
There are No plans on switiching out from the 6061-T4 Aluminum material.
Also, some more useful information.
A complete Joe Z Intake for the 06' IS only weighs = 1.5 lbs.
That includes the pipe, the 2 silcione sleeves and the four brushed stainless steel clamps.
The stock oem rubber intake w/ 2 clamps weighs a grand total of 2.5 lbs
Again, I only posted my opinion and some facts on this issue.. And just to be clear this issue was looked at long before I decided to make these intakes for our IS community.
Other than that, I really don't know what else to add..
Happy Modding!!
Thanks for your time..
Joe Z
p.s. - I typed this over a 30 min time span, so I did not see the last few above posts, until after I posted mine..
I'll try to be as unbiased as possible..!!
Ramon - I stand by my product 110%.. If you are not truly pleased with the intake design or material, please let me know and I will buy it back from you...
FYI - During testing, after many numerous short drives and Fwy drives I was able to touch the intake for quite some time after pulling over at idle and/or engine off.. After a few minutes of being OFF, your right I could not touch the intake for more than 1-2 secs...
But then again that goes for just about everything else in the Engine Compartment.
The rest of you are correct, the information in this thread is useful and makes good reading material. The fact that the thread was started this morning and is already 4 pages long shows it..
However, I think the thread title should be changed to "ALL Aluminum Intake Concerns", for cars in general..
The Joe Z Intake design has been in use successfully on the IS300 for just over 3.5 years with the same materials and design.. I took that design and transffered it over for the 2006 IS w/succes. Especially on the dyno tests.., if the independent dyno tests showed NO improvement or ZERO gains, the intake would NOT have been released, plain and simple.
I did NOT make the intake for High Horsepower Improvements, Sound Improvements or as a Engine Dress up Accessory..
Some feel that it is a waste of money and that is OK as everyone has a right to their opinion. Many are happy that they purhcased a product that Optimized the OEM set up on their IS300, IS250 and/or IS350.
All it comes down to is that, if you know what your buying & you know what it does, and it does what it says, then you should be a happy customer..
If your are still dis-pleased with the product, than that is the true concern.
Has anyone ever felt the intake suction power on any IS or any car for that matter??
The air is litterally gone is less than a blink of an eye.. and thats at idle..
When your driving or engine revving the air speed inside the intake is Dramitcally increased.. It can literally suck your arm right off.. Anyone want to give that a try??
Just becuase the intake surface gets hot at idle or after the car sits for a few minutes OFF it does NOT automatically mean that heat is transferred to the rapid air that is flowing through it when the engine is ON.. The air would probably have to hang around inside the intake for a few seconds in order to absorb heat.
If that were the case, most aluminum intakes on the market today would be causing Check Engine Lights, rough idle, power loss or engine bogging..
Correction: some intakes on the market due just that on some cars..
^^^ None of these issues have ever been reported with the Joe Z Intake on any year Lexus IS
Has anyone ever touched the intake pleminum, or the stock rubber intake, or the throttle body at idle or engine off... They are ALL EXTREMELY HOT... !!
Their a quite a few CL members with the Joe Z Intake on their IS for many years..
Even our very own CL Editor > Flipside909
There are No plans on switiching out from the 6061-T4 Aluminum material.
Also, some more useful information.
A complete Joe Z Intake for the 06' IS only weighs = 1.5 lbs.
That includes the pipe, the 2 silcione sleeves and the four brushed stainless steel clamps.
The stock oem rubber intake w/ 2 clamps weighs a grand total of 2.5 lbs
Again, I only posted my opinion and some facts on this issue.. And just to be clear this issue was looked at long before I decided to make these intakes for our IS community.
Other than that, I really don't know what else to add..
Happy Modding!!
Thanks for your time..
Joe Z
p.s. - I typed this over a 30 min time span, so I did not see the last few above posts, until after I posted mine..
Last edited by Joe Z; 05-31-06 at 06:32 PM. Reason: typo
05-31-06, 06:10 PM
#55
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I am a happy Joe Z intake customer for my Gen 1 IS300...nearly 3 years and running.
05-31-06, 06:59 PM
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Thanks, Joe, for showing interest in our forum. I am extremely pleased with your product, affordable and very easy to install. I don't have a dyno and haven't tested my car before and after intake mod, but as others have said before me, the throttle is definitely more responsive after the mod. This car wants to get up and go anyway, but, after the Joe Z intake, the brief pause when you step on it, is gone. You get immediate acceleration response. Mee likey.
05-31-06, 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Ichigo
well said Joe. Im glad to hear your take on everything. Cant wait till I get back in town to get my JoeZ intake installed...
05-31-06, 07:28 PM
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Joe Z, first and foremost I'd like to thank you for taking the time to reply to this thread and address some of the concernes brought up. I have no doubt as to the validity of the independant dyno tests, just bringing up some variables that may or may not have been considered during the testing. I will not be asking you to buy back the intake, that's not my style as it does what its advertised to do and it isn't defective. I did not feel any loss of power, just wondering if it is a possibility givin the circumstances brought up in this thread.
I currently have the stock intake on, after coming home from work I let the car sit for about an hour, thats about how long I let the car sit before I checked on the Joe Z intake. The stock rubber was definatly hot, but it did not burn. I realize this is not a legitiment test, as the car is just sitting there and there is no air inside or around the intake to dissappate the heat, and of course aluminum will get hotter than rubber in that situation. I then made a 20 mile trip to my cousins house and felt the stock intake as soon as I got there and it was very comfortable. I'm going to put the Joe Z intake back on before I leave work tomorrow and check it as soon as i get home and see the difference. I was going to use a temp gun but I can't seem to find where I put mine.
I currently have the stock intake on, after coming home from work I let the car sit for about an hour, thats about how long I let the car sit before I checked on the Joe Z intake. The stock rubber was definatly hot, but it did not burn. I realize this is not a legitiment test, as the car is just sitting there and there is no air inside or around the intake to dissappate the heat, and of course aluminum will get hotter than rubber in that situation. I then made a 20 mile trip to my cousins house and felt the stock intake as soon as I got there and it was very comfortable. I'm going to put the Joe Z intake back on before I leave work tomorrow and check it as soon as i get home and see the difference. I was going to use a temp gun but I can't seem to find where I put mine.
05-31-06, 07:52 PM
#60
Originally Posted by Ramon
Joe Z, first and foremost I'd like to thank you for taking the time to reply to this thread and address some of the concernes brought up. I have no doubt as to the validity of the independant dyno tests, just bringing up some variables that may or may not have been considered during the testing. I will not be asking you to buy back the intake, that's not my style as it does what its advertised to do and it isn't defective. I did not feel any loss of power, just wondering if it is a possibility givin the circumstances brought up in this thread.
I currently have the stock intake on, after coming home from work I let the car sit for about an hour, thats about how long I let the car sit before I checked on the Joe Z intake. The stock rubber was definatly hot, but it did not burn. I realize this is not a legitiment test, as the car is just sitting there and there is no air inside or around the intake to dissappate the heat, and of course aluminum will get hotter than rubber in that situation. I then made a 20 mile trip to my cousins house and felt the stock intake as soon as I got there and it was very comfortable. I'm going to put the Joe Z intake back on before I leave work tomorrow and check it as soon as i get home and see the difference. I was going to use a temp gun but I can't seem to find where I put mine.
I currently have the stock intake on, after coming home from work I let the car sit for about an hour, thats about how long I let the car sit before I checked on the Joe Z intake. The stock rubber was definatly hot, but it did not burn. I realize this is not a legitiment test, as the car is just sitting there and there is no air inside or around the intake to dissappate the heat, and of course aluminum will get hotter than rubber in that situation. I then made a 20 mile trip to my cousins house and felt the stock intake as soon as I got there and it was very comfortable. I'm going to put the Joe Z intake back on before I leave work tomorrow and check it as soon as i get home and see the difference. I was going to use a temp gun but I can't seem to find where I put mine.