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So I'm in the process of gathering parts for the NA-T setup and I know it's not necessary to change the stock intake with my power goals of about 400 but I know it'll make the engine bay look alot cleaner as well as making my intercooler piping much simpler.
Came across an XS power manifold on ebay for about a $100 bucks but it seems to need more work to get it installed properly.
So my question is this, is it worth getting this FFIM, or a similar one in general or should I stick with the stock intake? I've also seen many ppl losing reliability and having issues with their NA-T once they go with a FFIM such as leaks and etc.
Prefer the XS Power style manifold so I don't have to relocate the battery and etc.
Trying to make a good decision so any advice would be helpful.
-BouncE
Last edited by ScBouncE; 04-19-16 at 06:52 AM.
Reason: More info
Bounce,
I think it depends on your bread. Getting an FFIM setup to work is just parts and time. You will get it working right after some spend...... period.
If you don't have extra bread, that 1K to 3K you might spend could be a crucial upgrade part you are sacrificing. Since you already have a working manifold, why not do everything else that is crucial first. You will only waste a bit of piping when you upgrade it ultimately.
AliSC3 knows how to get the cheaper ones working well.
Bounce,
I think it depends on your bread. Getting an FFIM setup to work is just parts and time. You will get it working right after some spend...... period.
If you don't have extra bread, that 1K to 3K you might spend could be a crucial upgrade part you are sacrificing. Since you already have a working manifold, why not do everything else that is crucial first. You will only waste a bit of piping when you upgrade it ultimately.
AliSC3 knows how to get the cheaper ones working well.
PS: Sorry I missed another NELOC ;-(
Damn 1-3k? I was thinking $500 tops with welding maybe 600. To my understanding, you'll need to get bungs welded for the vacuum lines and tps, and one for the IACV (Not mandatory) and get a throttle body that also needs to be welded. I've seen people just bolt on the runners as well but I'd go ahead and weld that too. There must be other things I'm missing....
But yeah I agree with your point in getting the other important parts to get the car running first. Thought this was a good deal here.
Don't worry you'll make the next NELOC meet... hopefully.
Stick with the stock intake manifold for your goal!
There are guys making 700whp through the stock intake manifold. Invest your money in other places where you will need it as you continue to mod.
The XSPower plenum is actually really awesome for the price but there are other parts required to do the swap which will increase your total costs to easily $600-$700 if you do it yourself assuming you want the nice RMR Billet 4" throttle body with Toyota TPS adapter.
To explain why I initially went with the FSMoto kit. I purchased my turbo manifold and turbo separately. The end result was a high mounted turbo that didn't fit the stock intake and I was forced to figure out a way to make it fit. Switching to the FFIM was the only option at the time as I wasn't willing to change my turbo setup. I later parted out the FSMoto kit and switched back to the stock intake and found a different turbo manifold, and smaller turbine housing and the end result of that setup and fitment was awesome (wish I had done this the first time around).
The pro's of the stock manifold are:
- OEM fitment is always best
- Can keep stock full size battery
- Retains stock cruise control
- Retains stock IACV valve for cold starting
- It's free
- It makes more low end torque over aftermarket FFIM
- Working around the manifold / Changing the oil filter is much much easier
- It's not a power restriction until higher power levels Cons of Stock intake:
- Changing spark plugs isn't as easy, but not terrible once you've removed alot of the OEM stuff that is in the way.
- Intercooler piping is longer, more complex
- The turbine housing must have a blanket on it to keep temps cooler and away from the upper intercooler pipe. Heat isn't ideal around this part but with the blanket it solved this issue for me
- Fitment issues, the height of the turbo's turbine must be taken to consideration and how the turbo manifold sits the turbo height will depend on the fitment. With the XSTurbo manifold I couldn't go any larger than a .81 T4 open PTE housing and the IC piping had to be a 2.5".
-
Advantages of FFIM:
- More air / more volume plenum will allow for higher peak numbers
- Makes changing spark plugs / coils a breeze (However I could have the stock intake manifold off in 10 minutes)
- Intercooler piping is simplified , shorter
- Fitment for large turbo's , large compressor housings , larger turbine housings is resolved as the stock throttle body is no longer in the way
- Looks are improved , especially when GTE valve covers are used
Cons of FFIM:
- Accessing under the plenum is extremely tight, and hard to work in. This makes oil filter changes difficult, servicing anything under the plenum difficult
- Must have a smaller battery or the Optima Red Top just barely worked
- Loss of low end RPM torque
- Total price especially for pre-fabbed kits is expensive
- Loss of cruise control
- End fit and finish result depends on how multiple trial and error or purchasing a pre-fabbed kit makes the over time and end result better. I purchased the FSMoto kit and while everything was included, the install was a PITA and getting it to a reliable finished point took some time.
- Open IACV valve can be noisy (Sounded incredibly loud on mine, I had to recirculate the IACV valve back into the IC piping to lessen the noise).
- If no IACV is provisioned on the new FFIM plenum cold starting is sketchy, throttle body pumping is necessary till it warms up.
Stick with the stock intake manifold for your goal!
There are guys making 700whp through the stock intake manifold. Invest your money in other places where you will need it as you continue to mod.
The XSPower plenum is actually really awesome for the price but there are other parts required to do the swap which will increase your total costs to easily $600-$700 if you do it yourself assuming you want the nice RMR Billet 4" throttle body with Toyota TPS adapter.
To explain why I initially went with the FSMoto kit. I purchased my turbo manifold and turbo separately. The end result was a high mounted turbo that didn't fit the stock intake and I was forced to figure out a way to make it fit. Switching to the FFIM was the only option at the time as I wasn't willing to change my turbo setup. I later parted out the FSMoto kit and switched back to the stock intake and found a different turbo manifold, and smaller turbine housing and the end result of that setup and fitment was awesome (wish I had done this the first time around).
The pro's of the stock manifold are:
- OEM fitment is always best
- Can keep stock full size battery
- Retains stock cruise control
- Retains stock IACV valve for cold starting
- It's free
- It makes more low end torque over aftermarket FFIM
- Working around the manifold / Changing the oil filter is much much easier
- It's not a power restriction until higher power levels Cons of Stock intake:
- Changing spark plugs isn't as easy, but not terrible once you've removed alot of the OEM stuff that is in the way.
- Intercooler piping is longer, more complex
- The turbine housing must have a blanket on it to keep temps cooler and away from the upper intercooler pipe. Heat isn't ideal around this part but with the blanket it solved this issue for me
- Fitment issues, the height of the turbo's turbine must be taken to consideration and how the turbo manifold sits the turbo height will depend on the fitment. With the XSTurbo manifold I couldn't go any larger than a .81 T4 open PTE housing and the IC piping had to be a 2.5".
-
Advantages of FFIM:
- More air / more volume plenum will allow for higher peak numbers
- Makes changing spark plugs / coils a breeze (However I could have the stock intake manifold off in 10 minutes)
- Intercooler piping is simplified , shorter
- Fitment for large turbo's , large compressor housings , larger turbine housings is resolved as the stock throttle body is no longer in the way
- Looks are improved , especially when GTE valve covers are used
Cons of FFIM:
- Accessing under the plenum is extremely tight, and hard to work in. This makes oil filter changes difficult, servicing anything under the plenum difficult
- Must have a smaller battery or the Optima Red Top just barely worked
- Loss of low end RPM torque
- Total price especially for pre-fabbed kits is expensive
- Loss of cruise control
- End fit and finish result depends on how multiple trial and error or purchasing a pre-fabbed kit makes the over time and end result better. I purchased the FSMoto kit and while everything was included, the install was a PITA and getting it to a reliable finished point took some time.
- Open IACV valve can be noisy (Sounded incredibly loud on mine, I had to recirculate the IACV valve back into the IC piping to lessen the noise).
- If no IACV is provisioned on the new FFIM plenum cold starting is sketchy, throttle body pumping is necessary till it warms up.
Appreciate the long response Hipsi, I've read your thread countless times and recalled you switching from the FFIM back to the stock intake and all the problems you had encountered so I was skeptical at first but needed to do more research.
I think I might end up sticking with the stock intake for now and like you and Anthony mentioned focus on other parts I could use. I have a BW366 and drift motion turbo manifold but haven't done any test fittings as of yet. Hoping I have enough clearance.
Guess I might as well start piecing together an intercooler kit while I'm at it.
I would go ahead and test mount that setup before anything. The Borg Warner turbo's sit high while precision turbo's are more pricey but fitment is easier due to smaller clearances.
Another PITA issue with tubular turbo manifolds is the oil drain, clearing the #1 runner from the oil line and still maintaining a proper straight down path.
Bw366 might be pushing what you can fit under the stock intake depending on the manifold and hotside size.
Everything said is spot on, its mostly for look and spark plug changes easier, but what I learnt is if you bypass the coolant lines, and run NGK Iridiums, you rarely need to change those plugs and if you do its not that bad to remove the Y pipe, I had it down to like 20 minutes.
The stock intake will make more bottom end torque that helps spool some, it is a good design.
If you get into the much higher power levels though there is a chance the ACIS butterfly in the intake can break when running alot of boost, I read about it happening once so it seems rare but a worthy mention.
I like my FFIM but I will probably be making another one here soon that is less tall, so I can reach my oil filter easily again, right now it is a total pain if I have to do anything in that area.
I have the XS power that I cut shorter, welded a q45 flange on, welded a 2jzgte IACV underneath (totally necessary unless you have a track car, my first version didn't have one never going without it again), welded on 3x 1/4" NPT aluminum bungs to it, 2 by firewall and one in the middle underneath that is teed to the map and FPR. The 2 by the firewall one is for the brake booster dedicated, and the other runs to a vac block for all the accessories that is bolted underneath out of site (heater, bov, gauge, etc..).
I DO NOT believe in running the brake booster after the vac block, there is a reason why brakes have a dedicated port on every car.
Mine is bolted on btw, never had a problem with any leaks but the issue with bolting it on is that it is extrememly tall, as in almost touching the shock tower making oil changes a total pain. if you cut and weld then it will be shorter and better in that department, but be carefull, too much and you will be too close to the power steering pump, so depending on throttle body etc.. its all a tradeoff and if you get it wrong then you have to start over.
Its nice to not have the extra piping/looks/easier access to top of motor, but also as HiPSI pointed out you loose some torque, things are harder to reach, its not foolproof like stock when setting it up at first, but if you can wrap your head around every little thing that needs to be done then it is totally doable.
btw my NGK Iridiums have been through like 2 official tuning sessions, countless sessions of me messing with the fuel where I should have fouled them out, plus like 15k in the last 5 years or so, and they never skip a beat. I dont understand why people still run coppers that need changing all the time, the iridiums are all around better and with the stock intake, its worth the extra cost cause not only is it a pain, but in the same period of time the Iridiums last you would have gone through like 4 sets of coppers. just my opinion so take it for what its worth, the stock intake is annoying but if you are smart you can minimize it and squeeze extra power out of it.
also if you just want to bolt it on and run the XS power style, look into the RMR throttle bodies, they are like $350 but they bolt on and are very low profile, so you wont have to move battery etc.. at all. cause by the time you get the q45 flange and pay someone to weld it on and also buy the q45 tb, you are more than half way on to the bling RMR bolt on solution... something to think about, lots of people who go xspower intake use that. there is a nice FFIM picture thread over in the n/a section on supraforums you should take a look for ideas.
im in the same situation as you SCBOUNCE (im the guy that live by you green chameleon) my problem is the IC pipes are getting hammered bad since im on air ride. Lots of info here to think about but im leaning towards FFIM but who knows ill research some more
im in the same situation as you SCBOUNCE (im the guy that live by you green chameleon) my problem is the IC pipes are getting hammered bad since im on air ride. Lots of info here to think about but im leaning towards FFIM but who knows ill research some more
PM me your number. Or text my bro if you still got his. I think I'm going to go with the XS power plenum being that the bw366 won't clear the intake pipe. Plenty of info here to get it running right
04-19-16, 06:49 AM
Na-t ffim
