1JZ No Start - Experts Suggestions Required!
01-10-14, 02:29 AM
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1JZ No Start - Experts Suggestions Required!
Guys
Looking to seek some advice from the 1JZ experts on here, with a engine swap project that is driving me nuts!
A bit of background... The donor car was a Lexus Soarer (SC300) with a 1JZ GTE and a R154 manual box and the recipient car was a 1994 Mazda MX5 (Miata) - All of the swap has been completed, all of the fabrication done and just now need to get it running. Donor car was bought running and I drove it back from the guy I bought it from about 2 years ago so know all the bits worked OK. So original ECU and wiring harness has been used, though stripped of any P/S, A/C, TEMS wiring etc. Upgraded injectors to 560cc Mitsubishi Evo top feeds, upgraded fuel system operated manually on a switch panel. The car is being used for Drag so has no Idle Control or O2 either (May add O2 back in), only circuits left are Crank sensor, MAP, Cam Sensors, TPS, AIT sensor, Water Sensors, Alternator etc.
My problem is I am getting no spark or fuel...
The story so far of things I've done and checked.
- Wired ECU to ensure that the B, B+, IGSW have 12V. M REL gives me 12V but I've wired the fuse box off a switch through the Main EFI Relay rather than through the key. I'm happy with this part.
- STA has 12V on crank. ECU B, B+, IGSW retains the 12V on crank, doesnt drop the voltage.
- The 2 Black / Orange wires in the loom have 12V, to injectors and Coils etc.
- Engine earths on E01, E02, E1, E1 have earths (according to continuity test on multi meter) - Earths terminate on the tab on the head near the front and both rings use the same earthing point due to it running an aftermarket inlet manifold which has no M6 / M8 female points to attach to.
- Running an Optima Red Top battery in the passenger compartment, earths onto a welded on bolt to the chassis on the trans tunnel, extra thick earth from the battery to the engine block, and small OEM earth from the head to the firewall.
- I have tried to use temporary jump leads as extra earth straps to see if this would resolve, but no.
- When activated, the ECU gives 12V to one wire on the coils, and both wires on the injectors as it should (I beleive), just no pulsing on the node light or spark to coils. Tested with a plug grounded on the rocker covers and no spark.
- Crank Sensor, Cam Sensors, Ignitor all have continuity on wires to ECU.
- Crank Sensor removed, cleaned up the end, checked the 12 point disc that it rotates with the crank, with my finger
- Crank Sensor and Cam Sensors have a resitance of around 1050 ohms which I believe falls within range.
- Receiving IGF signal from the ignitor to the ECU, which has continuity to ECU and voltage raises to 0.3 volts on crank.
- Ignitor has 12V and earth to it on the 4 pin connector. The R / Y is IGF siganl I beleive, not sure what the other wire does.
- All TPS and other sensors have 5V supply (might check this again though!)
- Checked Cam Sensors for voltage, but I didn't realise they were Resonance effect sensors. Guess I could do with scoping the Cam and Crank Sensors?
So my thoughts are if I have havent got either spark nor fuel then it is something affecting both and I beleive you only need the Crank Sensor, at least 1 of the 2 Cam Sensors and an IGF signal minimum to crank. So in my mind that would rule out the ECU and Ignitor being bad, unless both of the are gone which I don't think is the case.
I'm leaning towards either of the following areas:
- Bad earths
- Bad Crank Position Sensor
Anyone got any suggestions on what to try next?
Thanks for your help!
Looking to seek some advice from the 1JZ experts on here, with a engine swap project that is driving me nuts!
A bit of background... The donor car was a Lexus Soarer (SC300) with a 1JZ GTE and a R154 manual box and the recipient car was a 1994 Mazda MX5 (Miata) - All of the swap has been completed, all of the fabrication done and just now need to get it running. Donor car was bought running and I drove it back from the guy I bought it from about 2 years ago so know all the bits worked OK. So original ECU and wiring harness has been used, though stripped of any P/S, A/C, TEMS wiring etc. Upgraded injectors to 560cc Mitsubishi Evo top feeds, upgraded fuel system operated manually on a switch panel. The car is being used for Drag so has no Idle Control or O2 either (May add O2 back in), only circuits left are Crank sensor, MAP, Cam Sensors, TPS, AIT sensor, Water Sensors, Alternator etc.
My problem is I am getting no spark or fuel...
The story so far of things I've done and checked.
- Wired ECU to ensure that the B, B+, IGSW have 12V. M REL gives me 12V but I've wired the fuse box off a switch through the Main EFI Relay rather than through the key. I'm happy with this part.
- STA has 12V on crank. ECU B, B+, IGSW retains the 12V on crank, doesnt drop the voltage.
- The 2 Black / Orange wires in the loom have 12V, to injectors and Coils etc.
- Engine earths on E01, E02, E1, E1 have earths (according to continuity test on multi meter) - Earths terminate on the tab on the head near the front and both rings use the same earthing point due to it running an aftermarket inlet manifold which has no M6 / M8 female points to attach to.
- Running an Optima Red Top battery in the passenger compartment, earths onto a welded on bolt to the chassis on the trans tunnel, extra thick earth from the battery to the engine block, and small OEM earth from the head to the firewall.
- I have tried to use temporary jump leads as extra earth straps to see if this would resolve, but no.
- When activated, the ECU gives 12V to one wire on the coils, and both wires on the injectors as it should (I beleive), just no pulsing on the node light or spark to coils. Tested with a plug grounded on the rocker covers and no spark.
- Crank Sensor, Cam Sensors, Ignitor all have continuity on wires to ECU.
- Crank Sensor removed, cleaned up the end, checked the 12 point disc that it rotates with the crank, with my finger
- Crank Sensor and Cam Sensors have a resitance of around 1050 ohms which I believe falls within range.
- Receiving IGF signal from the ignitor to the ECU, which has continuity to ECU and voltage raises to 0.3 volts on crank.
- Ignitor has 12V and earth to it on the 4 pin connector. The R / Y is IGF siganl I beleive, not sure what the other wire does.
- All TPS and other sensors have 5V supply (might check this again though!)
- Checked Cam Sensors for voltage, but I didn't realise they were Resonance effect sensors. Guess I could do with scoping the Cam and Crank Sensors?
So my thoughts are if I have havent got either spark nor fuel then it is something affecting both and I beleive you only need the Crank Sensor, at least 1 of the 2 Cam Sensors and an IGF signal minimum to crank. So in my mind that would rule out the ECU and Ignitor being bad, unless both of the are gone which I don't think is the case.
I'm leaning towards either of the following areas:
- Bad earths
- Bad Crank Position Sensor
Anyone got any suggestions on what to try next?
Thanks for your help!
01-11-14, 05:13 PM
#2
Alright...
So, I'm going to make a few generalizations because I'm not terribly familiar with the 1JZ, but I can't imagine it being too different from the 2JZ...
First off, IGF = igniter return - this is used to signal to the ECU that the igniter told the coil to fire - it is used for emissions and diagnostics only. The fact that you are getting a signal tells me that the car is firing the coils, or at least the igniter is trying to fire the coils...
Next, some basics on the way Toyota ecu's fire injectors - the injectors always have +12V, which it sounds like they do, on one pin, however, the second pin gets pulled to ground by the ECU... From your description, this is not happening...
Now, one thing I definitely do not know about your setup, is if like many Toyota and Lexus cars here in the states, does the key matter??? On the factory ECU, in my IS300 with factory 2JZ, there is a sensor near the ignition switch which senses special transponder keys... if the transponder key is missing, the ECU refuses to fire the injectors... is there a possibility this is an issue?
So, I'm going to make a few generalizations because I'm not terribly familiar with the 1JZ, but I can't imagine it being too different from the 2JZ...
First off, IGF = igniter return - this is used to signal to the ECU that the igniter told the coil to fire - it is used for emissions and diagnostics only. The fact that you are getting a signal tells me that the car is firing the coils, or at least the igniter is trying to fire the coils...
Next, some basics on the way Toyota ecu's fire injectors - the injectors always have +12V, which it sounds like they do, on one pin, however, the second pin gets pulled to ground by the ECU... From your description, this is not happening...
Now, one thing I definitely do not know about your setup, is if like many Toyota and Lexus cars here in the states, does the key matter??? On the factory ECU, in my IS300 with factory 2JZ, there is a sensor near the ignition switch which senses special transponder keys... if the transponder key is missing, the ECU refuses to fire the injectors... is there a possibility this is an issue?
01-12-14, 02:24 AM
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Thanks for the reply.
The ECU immobiliser is a possibility but as the donor car was a 1991 vehicle, Im not sure the technology was there back then. I will look into it though.
Yes both injector wires are seeing 12V and understand how the ECU pulls them to ground, so I think this is correct, do you agree?
One thing in passing I noticed yesterday (it was late and I was doubting myself!) I'm not sure if the timing was out by 1 tooth or not. Would this stop it firing? I dont think it would, and obviously would need to be checked properly and rectified!
Any other ideas please?? Thanks
The ECU immobiliser is a possibility but as the donor car was a 1991 vehicle, Im not sure the technology was there back then. I will look into it though.
Yes both injector wires are seeing 12V and understand how the ECU pulls them to ground, so I think this is correct, do you agree?
One thing in passing I noticed yesterday (it was late and I was doubting myself!) I'm not sure if the timing was out by 1 tooth or not. Would this stop it firing? I dont think it would, and obviously would need to be checked properly and rectified!
Any other ideas please?? Thanks
01-12-14, 07:44 AM
#4
Ah, true, probably not from back then, I agree...
How about this, because having +12v on both terminals of the injector worries me... I would expect a voltage drop of some sorts, as the injector acts as a resistor...
unplug an injector and check voltage at the connector - one side should have +12v, the other side should have nothing, no voltage, no ground...
One tooth out should not cause it to not fire, and in fact, it should still start, even with it a tooth out...
How about this, because having +12v on both terminals of the injector worries me... I would expect a voltage drop of some sorts, as the injector acts as a resistor...
unplug an injector and check voltage at the connector - one side should have +12v, the other side should have nothing, no voltage, no ground...
One tooth out should not cause it to not fire, and in fact, it should still start, even with it a tooth out...
01-12-14, 07:47 AM
#5
One more thing... the EVO injectors are high impedance, correct?
There is a possibility the factory 1JZ injectors are low impedance and thus utilize a resistor box to make the ECU only see high resistance... If this resistor box is still in the wiring loom, it could cause way too high of resistance and the ECU may not be able to fire the injectors due to that as well
There is a possibility the factory 1JZ injectors are low impedance and thus utilize a resistor box to make the ECU only see high resistance... If this resistor box is still in the wiring loom, it could cause way too high of resistance and the ECU may not be able to fire the injectors due to that as well
01-12-14, 08:08 AM
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I didnt notice any resitor box in the 1JZ wiring loom. Not like the big one you get on the 2JZ anyway? Is this definitely the case, if so where is it? I shall unplug all the injectors and try again, as Ive only unplugged one to test.
So youre sure that 12V on both injector terminals is not right? I thought the black / orange was switched 12V and the coloured wire swapped from 12V to ground? Though Im probably wrong!
The fact that both no inj pulse plus no spark leads me to beleive theres a common underlying problem, hence the Cranl Pos sensor or ECU maybe...
So youre sure that 12V on both injector terminals is not right? I thought the black / orange was switched 12V and the coloured wire swapped from 12V to ground? Though Im probably wrong!
The fact that both no inj pulse plus no spark leads me to beleive theres a common underlying problem, hence the Cranl Pos sensor or ECU maybe...
01-12-14, 08:44 AM
#7
black w/ orange stripe is definitely +12v, so that is correct, but (and its been a while since I've tested) I believe the other side of the injector shouldn't have +12v, as the +12v has to go through a resistor (the injector itself) and I don't believe the ECU outputs +12v on the colored wire when it is not outputting a ground...
here is at least a partial listing:
BATT–E1 : ALWAYS 9–14 VOLTS
IGSW–E1 : 9–14 VOLTS WITH IGNITION SW ON
M–REL–E1 : 9–14 VOLTS WITH IGNITION SW ON
+B–E1 : 9–14 VOLTS WITH IGNITION SW ON
IDL1–E2 : 9–14 VOLTS WITH IGNITION SW ON AND THROTTLE VALVE FULLY OPEN
: 0 –1.5 VOLTS WITH IGNITION SW ON AND THROTTLE VALVE FULLY CLOSED
VTA1–E2 : 0.3– 0.8 VOLTS WITH IGNITION SW ON AND THROTTLE VALVE FULLY CLOSED
: 3.2–4.9 VOLTS WITH IGNITION SW ON AND THROTTLE VALVE OPEN
#10, #20, #30–E01, E02 : PULSE GENERATION (ENGINE IDLING)
#40, #50, #60–E01, E02 : PULSE GENERATION (ENGINE IDLING)
THA–E2 : 0.5–3.4 VOLTS WITH IGNITION SW ON AND INTAKE AIR TEMP. 20°C (68°F)
THW–E2 : 0.2–1.0 VOLTS WITH IGNITION SW ON AND COOLANT TEMP. 80°C (176°F)
STA–E1 : 6–14 VOLTS WITH ENGINE CRANKING
ISC1, ISC2, ISC3, ISC4–E1 : PULSE GENERATION (ENGINE IDLING)
W–E1 : 9–14 VOLTS WITH ENGINE IDLING
IGF–E1 : PULSE GENERATION (ENGINE IDLING)
NSW–E1 : 0–3 VOLTS WITH IGNITION SW ON AND SHIFT LEVER P OR N POSITION
9–14 VOLTS WITH IGNITION SW ON AND SHIFT LEVER EXCEPT P OR N POSITION
SP1 : PULSE GENERATION
TE1, TE2–E1 : 9–14 VOLTS WITH IGNITION SW ON
A/C–E1 : 0–1.5 VOLTS WITH IGNITION SW ON AND A/C OFF
7.5–14 VOLTS WITH IGNITION SW ON AND A/C ON
ELS–E1 : 9–14 VOLTS WITH TAILLIGHT ON, DEFOGGER ON
0–1.5 VOLTS WITH TAILLIGHT OFF, DEFOGGER OFF
STP–E1 : 7.5–14 VOLTS WITH STOP LIGHT SW ON (BRAKE PEDAL DEPRESSED)
0–1.5 VOLTS WITH STOP LIGHT SW OFF
(RESISTANCE OF ENGINE CONTROL MODULE (ENGINE AND ELECTRONICALLY CONTROLLED TRANSMISSION ECU) WIRING CONNECTORS)
IDL1–E2 : INFINITY WITH THROTTLE VALVE OPEN
: 0–2.3 K WITH THROTTLE VALVE FULLY CLOSED
VTA1–E2 : 3.3 K10.0 K WITH THROTTLE VALVE FULLY OPEN
: 200 –800 WITH THROTTLE VALVE FULLY CLOSED
VCC–E2 : 4 K –9 K
THA–E2 : 2 K –3 K WITH INTAKE AIR TEMP. 20°C (68°F)
THW–E2 : 200 –400 WITH COOLANT TEMP. 80°C (176°F)
ISC1, ISC2, ISC3, ISC4– +B : 10–30
#10, #20, #30, #40, #50, #60– +B : 13.2 –14.2
Along the lines of your last line of text, crank sensors and ecu's don't generally just go out, but they can for sure. I would say to double check the condition of the wiring at the pigtails for these sensors... it is possible a wire is broken or frayed causing your issue...
Only if you had a standalone - while cranking, all we would have to look for on an AEM is stat sync and that will tell you right away if you have good cam / crank signal...
here is at least a partial listing:
BATT–E1 : ALWAYS 9–14 VOLTS
IGSW–E1 : 9–14 VOLTS WITH IGNITION SW ON
M–REL–E1 : 9–14 VOLTS WITH IGNITION SW ON
+B–E1 : 9–14 VOLTS WITH IGNITION SW ON
IDL1–E2 : 9–14 VOLTS WITH IGNITION SW ON AND THROTTLE VALVE FULLY OPEN
: 0 –1.5 VOLTS WITH IGNITION SW ON AND THROTTLE VALVE FULLY CLOSED
VTA1–E2 : 0.3– 0.8 VOLTS WITH IGNITION SW ON AND THROTTLE VALVE FULLY CLOSED
: 3.2–4.9 VOLTS WITH IGNITION SW ON AND THROTTLE VALVE OPEN
#10, #20, #30–E01, E02 : PULSE GENERATION (ENGINE IDLING)
#40, #50, #60–E01, E02 : PULSE GENERATION (ENGINE IDLING)
THA–E2 : 0.5–3.4 VOLTS WITH IGNITION SW ON AND INTAKE AIR TEMP. 20°C (68°F)
THW–E2 : 0.2–1.0 VOLTS WITH IGNITION SW ON AND COOLANT TEMP. 80°C (176°F)
STA–E1 : 6–14 VOLTS WITH ENGINE CRANKING
ISC1, ISC2, ISC3, ISC4–E1 : PULSE GENERATION (ENGINE IDLING)
W–E1 : 9–14 VOLTS WITH ENGINE IDLING
IGF–E1 : PULSE GENERATION (ENGINE IDLING)
NSW–E1 : 0–3 VOLTS WITH IGNITION SW ON AND SHIFT LEVER P OR N POSITION
9–14 VOLTS WITH IGNITION SW ON AND SHIFT LEVER EXCEPT P OR N POSITION
SP1 : PULSE GENERATION
TE1, TE2–E1 : 9–14 VOLTS WITH IGNITION SW ON
A/C–E1 : 0–1.5 VOLTS WITH IGNITION SW ON AND A/C OFF
7.5–14 VOLTS WITH IGNITION SW ON AND A/C ON
ELS–E1 : 9–14 VOLTS WITH TAILLIGHT ON, DEFOGGER ON
0–1.5 VOLTS WITH TAILLIGHT OFF, DEFOGGER OFF
STP–E1 : 7.5–14 VOLTS WITH STOP LIGHT SW ON (BRAKE PEDAL DEPRESSED)
0–1.5 VOLTS WITH STOP LIGHT SW OFF
(RESISTANCE OF ENGINE CONTROL MODULE (ENGINE AND ELECTRONICALLY CONTROLLED TRANSMISSION ECU) WIRING CONNECTORS)
IDL1–E2 : INFINITY WITH THROTTLE VALVE OPEN
: 0–2.3 K WITH THROTTLE VALVE FULLY CLOSED
VTA1–E2 : 3.3 K10.0 K WITH THROTTLE VALVE FULLY OPEN
: 200 –800 WITH THROTTLE VALVE FULLY CLOSED
VCC–E2 : 4 K –9 K
THA–E2 : 2 K –3 K WITH INTAKE AIR TEMP. 20°C (68°F)
THW–E2 : 200 –400 WITH COOLANT TEMP. 80°C (176°F)
ISC1, ISC2, ISC3, ISC4– +B : 10–30
#10, #20, #30, #40, #50, #60– +B : 13.2 –14.2
Along the lines of your last line of text, crank sensors and ecu's don't generally just go out, but they can for sure. I would say to double check the condition of the wiring at the pigtails for these sensors... it is possible a wire is broken or frayed causing your issue...
Only if you had a standalone - while cranking, all we would have to look for on an AEM is stat sync and that will tell you right away if you have good cam / crank signal...
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01-13-14, 01:30 AM
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Had a quick thought based on your AEM point... I'm running a GREddy Emanage Ultimate on the car and I think (from memory) you can see real time data on there too. I might get it wired in to see if it will help. It needs to have a Standalone system eventually though.
Cheers MitsuGuy
Cheers MitsuGuy
01-15-14, 01:28 AM
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OK - I've had another hour on the car last night, still no joy - Looking like I'm going to hire a scope out to check the signals next. One thing that did strike me though that I'm hoping you electronics experts can confirm, is that Ive notived that all of the 12V supplies to coil packs, injectors etc have 12V but ALSO they are showing continuity to ground?! This isn't normal is it? I took off the whole engine loom and appears that the issue still occurs when just the fusebox is powered up from the ignition. So the main black/red wire from the fuse box has both 12V and ground with very little connected. This could explain the poor signals to ignitor, coils etc and poor earths I guess.
Can someone confirm that I'm not going mad, and there shouldn't be continuity between 12V and ground?
Thanks
Can someone confirm that I'm not going mad, and there shouldn't be continuity between 12V and ground?
Thanks
01-23-14, 08:20 AM
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So I'm on with the electrical issue with the 1JZ in the Miata / MX5 and now Ive found that with nothing attached on either terminal with the exception of one earth strap from the negative to the chassis, that I'm still getting continuity to ground to the 12V positive terminal. I tried to call Optima "Technical" support, who were anything but Technical !
So any thoughts on this? Even though the battery cranks the car, could it be bad ? I tested the stock battery just for my own sanity, and even though it was flat, it gave no continuity with the same set up.
Has anyone got an Optima battery that could test for me ???
You thoughts are much appreciated !
So any thoughts on this? Even though the battery cranks the car, could it be bad ? I tested the stock battery just for my own sanity, and even though it was flat, it gave no continuity with the same set up.
Has anyone got an Optima battery that could test for me ???
You thoughts are much appreciated !
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