How to perform "induction service"?
05-03-04, 10:12 AM
#1
Lexus Champion
Thread Starter
How to perform "induction service"?
My performed an "induction service" on my car at around 30k miles using a BG 44K product. I looked around the web and I found the product for sale, but it mentions using some sort of tube fed through the intake and doesn't mention anything more than that.
I've cleaned out my upper intake manifold with a bottle of STP intake manifod cleaner and a toothbrush. The BG 44K induction service that the dealer performs sounds more like they're feeding an IV through my upper intake. What are the details of this 'operation'?
I've cleaned out my upper intake manifold with a bottle of STP intake manifod cleaner and a toothbrush. The BG 44K induction service that the dealer performs sounds more like they're feeding an IV through my upper intake. What are the details of this 'operation'?
05-03-04, 01:58 PM
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The dealer's induction service accomplishes nothing more than the manual cleaning with solvent and a toothbrush. I only clean the throttle plate and surrounding bore with old rags soaked in a little solvent and using the toothbrush because there is too much risk of damaging important sensors like the throttle position sensor if lots of cleaner is sprayed inside the intake manifold.
Dealers are in business to charge big bucks for simple services like transmission, power steering, brake and coolant fluid changes. The BG company partners with dealers by selling or loaning them BG flushing equipment in exchange for using and promoting BG brand cleaners and fluids. So it's a win-win situation for the dealer and the BG company and a losing situation (pocketbookwise) for the customer especially since BG brand fluids and lubes may be used instead of the Toyota fluids and lubes which the Toyota engineers took the time and trouble to develope specifically for Toyotas and Lexus's
Dealers are in business to charge big bucks for simple services like transmission, power steering, brake and coolant fluid changes. The BG company partners with dealers by selling or loaning them BG flushing equipment in exchange for using and promoting BG brand cleaners and fluids. So it's a win-win situation for the dealer and the BG company and a losing situation (pocketbookwise) for the customer especially since BG brand fluids and lubes may be used instead of the Toyota fluids and lubes which the Toyota engineers took the time and trouble to develope specifically for Toyotas and Lexus's
05-04-04, 09:54 AM
#3
THE DEALER IS GOING TO MAKE MONEY ANYWAY
Sabre,
You are right about the dealer's "win-win" situation. I can understand what you are saying. I use BG products in my car, and they are good. I have the installation kits that put the chemical in the intake manifold ahead of the injectors.
It all boils down to this: Toyota makes good products...THAT IS A FACT. BUT so do their competitors. It is going to cost the consumer money to get ANY of this work done to your car..UNLESS you do it yourself. I don't have any guarantees when it comes to dealers sometimes. Some dealers will charge you for Toyota Factory oils, and use the cheaper stuff out back to save money, and no one is the wiser. It can and does happen. With competition as fierce as it is, Toyota's products are no better than the competitors in my opinion.
I have seen people get the worst service from dealers. It doesn't happen all the time, but one has to be careful about what you get. Dealers sell VALUE and CONFIDENCE. People are willing to pay for that feeling, more than for getting superior products. I get that same feeling whenever I service my own car.
Make no mistake...BG makes excellent products. In fact they have a kit that attacks dirt in the fuel system 3 ways.
One is with a fuel tank additive. It cleans as you drive. It is exactly the same product as TECHROLINE from Chevron, because they bought the patent from Chevron..as did Texaco with their System 3 formula gasoline. It is just highly concentrated to help clean. Chevron developed Techron years ago, and it is considered THE chemical by nearly everyone in the automotive industry. Other companies buy from them and market it under their own names. Even the car manufacturers recognize TECHRON as the best cleaner around
Two is with a spray that goes down the intake through the butterfly valve/plate on the throttle body. This cleans the throttle bore and upper chambers to a degree. This dirt is pushed through the intake into the heads. Excessive use of any cleaner can have deleterious effects, so be careful with Idle Speed Controls that control idle by restricting air around the throttle plate. Throttle Position Sensors are bolted to the outside of the throttle body, and generally chemicals do not come in contact with it unless you spray it directly on it from outside. Ford has mandated that the throttle bore NOT be cleaned with anything because the inside is coated with plastic. The chemicals eat away at the plastic. Apparently, their testing has indicated that their bores do not require cleaning. How long that will be valid is anyone's guess. Many domestic cars are only kept 100,000 miles or so, and it is not clear if this policy applies after a few years. My guess would be that these intakes are pretty grimy after 100,000 miles without cleaning.
Three is the 3rd part of the system. After the throtle plate has been cleaned as in step 2, this dirt goes into the head via the intake manifold, and rests in the valve ports. This is where it cakes up and clogs the air and fuel passages. These ports are very narrow. That dirt can actually make the car run worse after a bit due to lack of air caused by moving the dirt further down the air trail. So BG has a 3rd can of induction cleaner that uses a tool to TAP the can, and the mixture flows through a clear tube into the intake. The technician finds a clear vacuum path to the intake (not thru a component), and attaches the line to it. The end of the line has a fitting with a very small hole on the end to slow down the flow and allow time for the cleaner to work. This is different than pouring a chemical down the throat of a carb, or sprayed through the air passage. When the engine is started, the mixture is slowly drawn through the intake manifold, cleaning places the spray can cannot reach. Plus it cleans the bores and stems of the valves, effectively opening up the port. The dirt goes out the exhaust. This allows more air into the heads for a considerable period of time..until it gets dirty again. It is worth the money to have this done in my opinion.
Another cleaning is INJECTOR cleaning. This is where a pressurized can is substituted for the actual fuel from the tank. This chemical is forced through the electronic injectors, cleaning them, and improving the spray pattern. The fuel will them be atomized better, using less gas and developing more power.
There is ONE caveat to all of this. This injector cleaner is so strong, it can only be used a few times before it damages the entire injector, and replacement is necessary. When injector bodies start leaking, it is a sure sign that they have been repeatedly subjected to this kind of cleaning. This chemical is sometime introduced into the system, and allowed to "hot soak" in an engine for a few minutes to loosen baked on carbon.
Dirt of this kind is introduced into the system by the use of "cheap" gas, or the failure of the owner to change fuel filters in a timely manner. Since most of us use good gasoline in our cars, pressurized injector cleaning should hardly ever be needed. I'd rather pay as I go, instead of waiting for trouble. Most reputable gas stations already have cleaners in their gasoline already, so injector cleaning generally is not required. I have certainly never had to replace a "single" injector because it was clogged, or had a bad spray pattern, but mechanics and dealers LOVE these kind of people. Someone has to buy bad gas, but it won't be me.
Some folks let their cars get dirty and clogged from neglect, and expect the dealer or technician to perform magic. Most of these strong Injector chemicals would not be needed if people serviced their cars on time. The pressurized chemicals are made JUST for the hard-headed folks using cheap, inferior products in their cars...or nothing at all until a problem arises. BG is not the enemy here. Induction cleaning is an altogether different thing, because even with good air filters, the air chambers will get dirt anyway. Also the EGR system dumps exhaust back into the intake to be reburned in certain conditions, so dirt is inevitable.
Word to the wise is: KNOW what kind of cleaning you are getting before having it done. People say one thing and do another.
GSEREP1
You are right about the dealer's "win-win" situation. I can understand what you are saying. I use BG products in my car, and they are good. I have the installation kits that put the chemical in the intake manifold ahead of the injectors.
It all boils down to this: Toyota makes good products...THAT IS A FACT. BUT so do their competitors. It is going to cost the consumer money to get ANY of this work done to your car..UNLESS you do it yourself. I don't have any guarantees when it comes to dealers sometimes. Some dealers will charge you for Toyota Factory oils, and use the cheaper stuff out back to save money, and no one is the wiser. It can and does happen. With competition as fierce as it is, Toyota's products are no better than the competitors in my opinion.
I have seen people get the worst service from dealers. It doesn't happen all the time, but one has to be careful about what you get. Dealers sell VALUE and CONFIDENCE. People are willing to pay for that feeling, more than for getting superior products. I get that same feeling whenever I service my own car.
Make no mistake...BG makes excellent products. In fact they have a kit that attacks dirt in the fuel system 3 ways.
One is with a fuel tank additive. It cleans as you drive. It is exactly the same product as TECHROLINE from Chevron, because they bought the patent from Chevron..as did Texaco with their System 3 formula gasoline. It is just highly concentrated to help clean. Chevron developed Techron years ago, and it is considered THE chemical by nearly everyone in the automotive industry. Other companies buy from them and market it under their own names. Even the car manufacturers recognize TECHRON as the best cleaner around
Two is with a spray that goes down the intake through the butterfly valve/plate on the throttle body. This cleans the throttle bore and upper chambers to a degree. This dirt is pushed through the intake into the heads. Excessive use of any cleaner can have deleterious effects, so be careful with Idle Speed Controls that control idle by restricting air around the throttle plate. Throttle Position Sensors are bolted to the outside of the throttle body, and generally chemicals do not come in contact with it unless you spray it directly on it from outside. Ford has mandated that the throttle bore NOT be cleaned with anything because the inside is coated with plastic. The chemicals eat away at the plastic. Apparently, their testing has indicated that their bores do not require cleaning. How long that will be valid is anyone's guess. Many domestic cars are only kept 100,000 miles or so, and it is not clear if this policy applies after a few years. My guess would be that these intakes are pretty grimy after 100,000 miles without cleaning.
Three is the 3rd part of the system. After the throtle plate has been cleaned as in step 2, this dirt goes into the head via the intake manifold, and rests in the valve ports. This is where it cakes up and clogs the air and fuel passages. These ports are very narrow. That dirt can actually make the car run worse after a bit due to lack of air caused by moving the dirt further down the air trail. So BG has a 3rd can of induction cleaner that uses a tool to TAP the can, and the mixture flows through a clear tube into the intake. The technician finds a clear vacuum path to the intake (not thru a component), and attaches the line to it. The end of the line has a fitting with a very small hole on the end to slow down the flow and allow time for the cleaner to work. This is different than pouring a chemical down the throat of a carb, or sprayed through the air passage. When the engine is started, the mixture is slowly drawn through the intake manifold, cleaning places the spray can cannot reach. Plus it cleans the bores and stems of the valves, effectively opening up the port. The dirt goes out the exhaust. This allows more air into the heads for a considerable period of time..until it gets dirty again. It is worth the money to have this done in my opinion.
Another cleaning is INJECTOR cleaning. This is where a pressurized can is substituted for the actual fuel from the tank. This chemical is forced through the electronic injectors, cleaning them, and improving the spray pattern. The fuel will them be atomized better, using less gas and developing more power.
There is ONE caveat to all of this. This injector cleaner is so strong, it can only be used a few times before it damages the entire injector, and replacement is necessary. When injector bodies start leaking, it is a sure sign that they have been repeatedly subjected to this kind of cleaning. This chemical is sometime introduced into the system, and allowed to "hot soak" in an engine for a few minutes to loosen baked on carbon.
Dirt of this kind is introduced into the system by the use of "cheap" gas, or the failure of the owner to change fuel filters in a timely manner. Since most of us use good gasoline in our cars, pressurized injector cleaning should hardly ever be needed. I'd rather pay as I go, instead of waiting for trouble. Most reputable gas stations already have cleaners in their gasoline already, so injector cleaning generally is not required. I have certainly never had to replace a "single" injector because it was clogged, or had a bad spray pattern, but mechanics and dealers LOVE these kind of people. Someone has to buy bad gas, but it won't be me.
Some folks let their cars get dirty and clogged from neglect, and expect the dealer or technician to perform magic. Most of these strong Injector chemicals would not be needed if people serviced their cars on time. The pressurized chemicals are made JUST for the hard-headed folks using cheap, inferior products in their cars...or nothing at all until a problem arises. BG is not the enemy here. Induction cleaning is an altogether different thing, because even with good air filters, the air chambers will get dirt anyway. Also the EGR system dumps exhaust back into the intake to be reburned in certain conditions, so dirt is inevitable.
Word to the wise is: KNOW what kind of cleaning you are getting before having it done. People say one thing and do another.
GSEREP1
Last edited by gserep1; 05-04-04 at 10:21 AM.
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05-05-04, 12:24 AM
#4
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Re: THE DEALER IS GOING TO MAKE MONEY ANYWAY
[QUOTE]Originally posted by gserep1
It all boils down to this: Toyota makes good products...THAT IS A FACT. BUT so do their competitors. With competition as fierce as it is, Toyota's products are no better than the competitors in my opinion.
gsrep1, I find it puzzling that on the one hand you accept the fact that Toyota routinely overengineers and overbuilds mechanical components like engines / timing belts, in order to ensure they will be extra reliable and durable, but on the other hand you cannot believe the same could also be true about genuine Toyota fluids and lubricants.
It all boils down to this: Toyota makes good products...THAT IS A FACT. BUT so do their competitors. With competition as fierce as it is, Toyota's products are no better than the competitors in my opinion.
gsrep1, I find it puzzling that on the one hand you accept the fact that Toyota routinely overengineers and overbuilds mechanical components like engines / timing belts, in order to ensure they will be extra reliable and durable, but on the other hand you cannot believe the same could also be true about genuine Toyota fluids and lubricants.
05-05-04, 10:15 PM
#5
I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO TELL YOU
SABRE,
Toyota does not build all of its' own parts. Manufacturers routinely sublet some of their work when building a car.. They are built to Toyota's specifications. If you feel comfortable buying everything with a "Toyota" name tag, so be it. I applaud you for doing so. The spark plugs in your Lexus may have a Toyota emblem on it, but they are made by either Nippondenso or NGK. They are not a part of Toyota, but they build to Toyota's specifications. Alternators are built by either Nippondenso or Mitsubishi. Same for the electrics..... Look around your car..you will see many brand names. Toyota does not make it's own lubricants anymore than they make their own tires. THAT is why if you look closely at your owners manual, they say Original parts OR equivalent. In transmission fluids, it says Toyota Type T-IV or Equivalent, which is Dexron V. I use AMSOIL Universal Automatic Transmission Fluid, which meeets and exceeds Toyota's specifications (in my opinion, and the opinions of others.)
I don't mean to be disrespectful (and I won't be or NEED to be), but some things I go factory on, and some things I don't...It is all a matter of taste / preference. I have experience using other than factory products, and I have mostly been successful.
I don't know what else to tell you, but I hope you can understsnd my position. I apologize if you can't, or I can't make myself clear enough")
GSEREP1
Toyota does not build all of its' own parts. Manufacturers routinely sublet some of their work when building a car.. They are built to Toyota's specifications. If you feel comfortable buying everything with a "Toyota" name tag, so be it. I applaud you for doing so. The spark plugs in your Lexus may have a Toyota emblem on it, but they are made by either Nippondenso or NGK. They are not a part of Toyota, but they build to Toyota's specifications. Alternators are built by either Nippondenso or Mitsubishi. Same for the electrics..... Look around your car..you will see many brand names. Toyota does not make it's own lubricants anymore than they make their own tires. THAT is why if you look closely at your owners manual, they say Original parts OR equivalent. In transmission fluids, it says Toyota Type T-IV or Equivalent, which is Dexron V. I use AMSOIL Universal Automatic Transmission Fluid, which meeets and exceeds Toyota's specifications (in my opinion, and the opinions of others.)
I don't mean to be disrespectful (and I won't be or NEED to be), but some things I go factory on, and some things I don't...It is all a matter of taste / preference. I have experience using other than factory products, and I have mostly been successful.
I don't know what else to tell you, but I hope you can understsnd my position. I apologize if you can't, or I can't make myself clear enough")
GSEREP1
Last edited by gserep1; 05-05-04 at 10:23 PM.
05-05-04, 10:41 PM
#7
YES, YOU'RE RIGHT!
Apparently SABRE wants to beat me into submission, and make me cry UNCLE" about Toyota quality. It is a moot point, because it is fairly obvious I love Toyota products...I have a Lexus. I am a synthetic oil fan, and because I like a lubricant not made by Toyoita, I am some how wrong, misinformed, or disloyal. As long as the products I use meet Toyota's Specifications, I feel I can do that if I want to in my own car. I haven't seen a synthetic engine oil made by Toyota. When they make one, I just MIGHT try it!
It is a known fact that Techron is the best fuel additive around, and has been endorsed by most of the manufacturers to keep injectors clean, but Toyota didn't make that. Maybe if Toyota repackages ( and REPRICES" it in their OWN bottle, it would make people feel better. I just go to chevron and buy it direct.
NUFF SAID!
It is a known fact that Techron is the best fuel additive around, and has been endorsed by most of the manufacturers to keep injectors clean, but Toyota didn't make that. Maybe if Toyota repackages ( and REPRICES" it in their OWN bottle, it would make people feel better. I just go to chevron and buy it direct.
NUFF SAID!
Last edited by gserep1; 05-05-04 at 10:42 PM.
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