Grrrr... Had to abandon LS tonight due to snow...
#31
Eight inches of snow? Not many sedans do that well in 8" of snow, not because of traction but because of clearance. If I lived somewhere with a reasonable amount of snow I'd definitely own an SUV/CUV. I've owned a Subaru wagon which was wonderful from a traction standpoint and most snowfall but in deep snow it could still get bogged down some. I've also owned an AWD RX300 and it was SPECTACULAR in snow - no problems at all.
If deep snow performance is important, I think you should forget the LS and look at the new LX.
If deep snow performance is important, I think you should forget the LS and look at the new LX.
You guys should check out the Top Gear episode that took cars to the North Pole.
#32
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LS460 is great in the snow
I'm driving an LS460 SWB this winter in Chicago with Blizzaks and the car is terrific with the combination of ECT set to "Snow" and the tires--as I expected. Interestingly, I had the opportunity to drive the LS in snow during the first snow-fall here as I brought it in for the wheel-swap and the handling was very slippery even with ECT on. After the swap the difference was huge.
I've been driving Blizzaks routinely for the past 7 or so years, first on rear-wheel drive Mercedes (1985 190 and 1988 E class) without traction control and even in those vehicles, the improvement in snow handling was dramatic. My current other vehicle is a 2005 C230 Benz and with Blizzaks and traction control--the car is great.
My point is that if you drive a rear-wheel drive vehicle in snow, you owe it to yourself for safety and driving comfort/peace of mind to use dedicated snow tires. Dry road handling is fine too.
I've been driving Blizzaks routinely for the past 7 or so years, first on rear-wheel drive Mercedes (1985 190 and 1988 E class) without traction control and even in those vehicles, the improvement in snow handling was dramatic. My current other vehicle is a 2005 C230 Benz and with Blizzaks and traction control--the car is great.
My point is that if you drive a rear-wheel drive vehicle in snow, you owe it to yourself for safety and driving comfort/peace of mind to use dedicated snow tires. Dry road handling is fine too.
#34
I'm driving an LS460 SWB this winter in Chicago with Blizzaks and the car is terrific with the combination of ECT set to "Snow" and the tires--as I expected. Interestingly, I had the opportunity to drive the LS in snow during the first snow-fall here as I brought it in for the wheel-swap and the handling was very slippery even with ECT on. After the swap the difference was huge.
I've been driving Blizzaks routinely for the past 7 or so years, first on rear-wheel drive Mercedes (1985 190 and 1988 E class) without traction control and even in those vehicles, the improvement in snow handling was dramatic. My current other vehicle is a 2005 C230 Benz and with Blizzaks and traction control--the car is great.
My point is that if you drive a rear-wheel drive vehicle in snow, you owe it to yourself for safety and driving comfort/peace of mind to use dedicated snow tires. Dry road handling is fine too.
I've been driving Blizzaks routinely for the past 7 or so years, first on rear-wheel drive Mercedes (1985 190 and 1988 E class) without traction control and even in those vehicles, the improvement in snow handling was dramatic. My current other vehicle is a 2005 C230 Benz and with Blizzaks and traction control--the car is great.
My point is that if you drive a rear-wheel drive vehicle in snow, you owe it to yourself for safety and driving comfort/peace of mind to use dedicated snow tires. Dry road handling is fine too.
Please share your experiences. Thanks.
#35
Pole Position
Thread Starter
That was my initial reaction to Chicago, although it does ice up and get large dumps due to the lake effect, and when the snow comes, even small hills can be a challenge there.
#37
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Well the guy did state he has Blizzaks and has used them the past 7 years. Snow tires make all the difference.
#38
BUT: If you one is looking at cornering and stopping ability on flats, than the front tires on a RWD car still contribute to grip. Whereas on an uphill straight, especially starting from a standstill, they basically don't contribute at all.
SO, hypothetically if a snow tire has 50% better grip than allseasons (and I have read it might be more like 25%), then in an uphill starting from standstill scenario, snows on a RWD might be 50% better than allseasons on an RWD.
...But allseasons on an AWD might be 100% better (100% more wheels with drive power/traction) than allseasons on a RWD. And that's the reason I'm now leaning toward an S550 4matic over an LS460L.
At least, that's the way I'm think of this. Would welcome hearing more realworld experiences (or theory) from people on this forum.
Last edited by syswei; 12-10-07 at 04:48 AM.
#39
... SO, hypothetically if a snow tire has 50% better grip than allseasons (and I have read it might be more like 25%), then in an uphill starting from standstill scenario, snows on a RWD might be 50% better than allseasons on an RWD.
...But allseasons on an AWD might be 100% better (100% more wheels with drive power/traction) than allseasons on a RWD. And that's the reason I'm now leaning toward an S550 4matic over an LS460L...
...But allseasons on an AWD might be 100% better (100% more wheels with drive power/traction) than allseasons on a RWD. And that's the reason I'm now leaning toward an S550 4matic over an LS460L...
To me, either would have been a good choice, but the Lexus had better reliability, and a touchscreen NAV instead of the COMAND system, and a few other minor (personal) advantages.
I've gone one step further than all season tires and mounted BLIZZAK snow tires. So far I've only been able to try the car in light snow, but it's performed magnificently.
HBH
Last edited by Helmar; 12-10-07 at 08:16 AM.
#40
Pole Position
Thread Starter
The reason why AWD provides more traction - btw, traction is dependent on friction (i.e. heat), which rises when more weight is applied, but drops when more power is applied - is because of the reduced power to the wheels, and more efficient applied contact with the rolling surface. For example, 300 horses directed to two wheels equals 150 each, but divided by four wheels means that the 75 horses are less likely to break free. Controlling the wheel slip increases the efficiency of the system by redirecting the motive force to the wheels with the least amount.
#41
The reason why AWD provides more traction - btw, traction is dependent on friction (i.e. heat), which rises when more weight is applied, but drops when more power is applied - is because of the reduced power to the wheels, and more efficient applied contact with the rolling surface. For example, 300 horses directed to two wheels equals 150 each, but divided by four wheels means that the 75 horses are less likely to break free. Controlling the wheel slip increases the efficiency of the system by redirecting the motive force to the wheels with the least amount.
In addition, AWD allows the other two wheels to find grip. In a car as long as the LS, there may be a difference in road surface (e.g. ice in the back and packed snow in the front).
#42
Super Moderator
LS460 Michelin X-ice Test Drive in Snow in Hokkaido
VIDEO : http://www.carview.co.jp/magazine/re...ichelin_x-ice/
Does anyone know what they're saying ?
That LS looks good to me
Does anyone know what they're saying ?
That LS looks good to me
#43
Pole Position
Thread Starter
There seems to be a shortage of the X-Ice in 18s. The 19s are available though. Tirerack lists the 18s but they're not in stock. Blizzaks and Dunlop winters look like they're the only options for the time being as far as I'm concerned anyway. Unless I get the 19", but there was a lot of debate a while back about the fitment. Any feedback on this?
I'm going to price the Canadian Costco availabilities tomorrow.
I'm going to price the Canadian Costco availabilities tomorrow.
#44
There seems to be a shortage of the X-Ice in 18s. The 19s are available though. Tirerack lists the 18s but they're not in stock. Blizzaks and Dunlop winters look like they're the only options for the time being as far as I'm concerned anyway. Unless I get the 19", but there was a lot of debate a while back about the fitment. Any feedback on this?
I'm going to price the Canadian Costco availabilities tomorrow.
I'm going to price the Canadian Costco availabilities tomorrow.
#45
There was an interesting test run by one of the car magazines a few years ago relative to the value of snow tires, all season tires, and car drive configuration. They tested 3 cars: front wheel drive, rear wheel drive, and all wheel drive all in snow concitions. With the all season tires, the cars performed as expected with the all wheel drive best and the rear wheel drive worst. When they put the winter tires on the rear wheel drive car, it had better traction than the other 2 with their all season tires. With all the cars shod with winter tires, the ranking returned to where it started, but with all much improved. Their conclusion was that tires made a bigger difference than drive configuration in snowy conditions.
Steve
Steve