4.6L V8 1UR-FSE analysis
09-23-06, 02:19 AM
#31
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http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/autoexp...xus_ls460.html
It's not the best video, but this is the one that illustrates the growl/roar of the new V8 engine ... kind of refreshing to hear an LS growl like that
It's not the best video, but this is the one that illustrates the growl/roar of the new V8 engine ... kind of refreshing to hear an LS growl like that
)
09-23-06, 09:38 AM
#32
However, your post is about as ignorant as ever. The SC430 is no where in the leauge of a Roush Stage 3 Mustang ... much less a stock Mustang... and that extends throughout you're entire post.
I hope your were joking.
Read my initial post sparking this.
When it starts making 590lb-ft torque, than us Lexus folks can brag about performance, until then...
09-23-06, 06:46 PM
#33
So you couldn't catch the sarcasm??? 
My whole point was that not everything is about all out power. Why do people buy Toyota Camry's when they could buy Subaru WRX STI's? Why do people buy Buicks? Why buy a Mercedes E550 when you could have a Roush Mustang, plus a bunch of left over cash to mod it? Why? Because not everyone buys a car just because of what it's 1/4 mile time is.
If the world was all about powers, we'd all be driving high performance cars. When I bought my Lexus, I could have easily bought an LS1 Camaro or a Roush Mustang. Easily.
How many cars out there have 590 lb. ft. of torque? Does the Ferrari Enzo even have that much? It's ridiculous to set that standard for a car. Who uses that kind of power anyway on a daily basis on public roads? I love high performance myself, but to say that a car has to have 590 lb. ft. of torque is ignorant. My cars has 300 Horsepower, but when can I honestly say I need all of that everyday? How many times is the average S600 owner is going to need all 590 lb. ft. of torque? Lexus doesn't have a stock production car with 500 lb. ft. of torque. BMW doesn't. Most car companies don't.
There is no brand loyalty in this case. In fact, since you're the one talking Mercedes V12, I think you're the one that's about brand loyalty.
I don't mean to start up ****, but it's just that I have a problem with a performance car having to have that much torque to be classified as one.
My whole point was that not everything is about all out power. Why do people buy Toyota Camry's when they could buy Subaru WRX STI's? Why do people buy Buicks? Why buy a Mercedes E550 when you could have a Roush Mustang, plus a bunch of left over cash to mod it? Why? Because not everyone buys a car just because of what it's 1/4 mile time is.
If the world was all about powers, we'd all be driving high performance cars. When I bought my Lexus, I could have easily bought an LS1 Camaro or a Roush Mustang. Easily.
How many cars out there have 590 lb. ft. of torque? Does the Ferrari Enzo even have that much? It's ridiculous to set that standard for a car. Who uses that kind of power anyway on a daily basis on public roads? I love high performance myself, but to say that a car has to have 590 lb. ft. of torque is ignorant. My cars has 300 Horsepower, but when can I honestly say I need all of that everyday? How many times is the average S600 owner is going to need all 590 lb. ft. of torque? Lexus doesn't have a stock production car with 500 lb. ft. of torque. BMW doesn't. Most car companies don't.
There is no brand loyalty in this case. In fact, since you're the one talking Mercedes V12, I think you're the one that's about brand loyalty.
I don't mean to start up ****, but it's just that I have a problem with a performance car having to have that much torque to be classified as one.
09-23-06, 11:00 PM
#34
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Posts: n/a
This is just a simple analysis I am doing of the new 4.6L V8 compared to the old 4.3L 3UZ-FE.
As an aside, Lexus Japan lists the specs for the 4.6L V8 as being 283kW and 500Nm, which equates to 385HP and 369 lb-ft torque. Now, the Lexus Europe site lists specs at 280kW and 493Nm, which equates to 380HP and 363 lb-ft torque. Perhaps different tuning or slightly different standards, but it will be interesting to see final specs for US model.
Now, at 2000 RPM, the 4.6L is making about 116HP and about 310 lb-ft torque already. It's funny that some previews of the new LS mentioned the new engine had "lack of torque". At 2000RPM, this engine is already making about as much torque as the old 4.3L 3UZ-FE made in peak torque output at 3400 RPM. To compare, at 2000RPM, the old 4.3L makes about 108HP and 276 lb-ft torque at 2000RPM.
At 3000RPM, the 4.6L makes about 197HP and about 340 lb-ft torque. Meanwhile, at 3000RPM, the 4.3L is making about 163HP and about 302 lb-ft torque. Just as a curiousity, at 3400RPM, the 4.6L makes about 355 lb-ft torque. So compared with the 4.3L, the 4.6L makes about 14% more torque at the same RPM.
At 4000RPM, the gap only widens. The 4.6L at this point makes about 285HP and has virtually reached it's peak torque at this point, so torque is about 365- 368 lb-ft. The 4.3L makes about 217HP and by this point torque has already dropped to about 305 lb-ft.
Finally, lets compare the output of both engines at 6400RPM, and see how much "juice" each engine still has at such a high RPM. At 6400RPM, the 4.6L reaches peak HP of about 380-385HP. It also, incredibly, is still making about 310 lb-ft of torque at this point. The 4.3L on the other hand, is just about running out of breath, making about 250HP and a lowly 240 lb-ft torque. It's also quite evident how much racing technology and inspiration went into this new 4.6L V8.
Also, if you look at the accompanying 2GR-FSE graph, you'll see that it's HP curve is very similar to the 1UR-FSE's curve. That means Lexus designed this new engine to be more sporty, with a high HP increase as revs increased, yet maintain strong torque. Also we can see that the new 1UR-FSE was tuned a bit more towards HP than torque, again for increased sportiness. Whereas the 2GR-FSE has a very flat torque curve though, the 4.6L V8 has a "mountain" of torque, typical of a V8, designed to give that big torquey "punch".
The upcoming 5.0L V8 which will be first seen in the LS hybrid is for all intents and purposes a bored-out version of the 4.6L V8. This 5.0L unit is already being used in the Rolex Sports Car Series in race form. The torque curve for this engine should be even more impressive. I also personally think that in a few years this engine will be offered in the standard LS as an option, or possibly replace the 4.6L V8. Also latest rumours are that the upcoming Lexus supercar will use a high performance version of this 5.0L V8. If this is the case, it will be the perfect opportunity to showcase what the new 5.0L V8 can do, outside of racing of course.
Finally, here are some pics of the 1UR-FSE along with the accompanying 8 speed tranny:
EDIT: Speculation on upcoming 5.0L V8, and made a few spelling corrections.
As an aside, Lexus Japan lists the specs for the 4.6L V8 as being 283kW and 500Nm, which equates to 385HP and 369 lb-ft torque. Now, the Lexus Europe site lists specs at 280kW and 493Nm, which equates to 380HP and 363 lb-ft torque. Perhaps different tuning or slightly different standards, but it will be interesting to see final specs for US model.
Now, at 2000 RPM, the 4.6L is making about 116HP and about 310 lb-ft torque already. It's funny that some previews of the new LS mentioned the new engine had "lack of torque". At 2000RPM, this engine is already making about as much torque as the old 4.3L 3UZ-FE made in peak torque output at 3400 RPM. To compare, at 2000RPM, the old 4.3L makes about 108HP and 276 lb-ft torque at 2000RPM.
At 3000RPM, the 4.6L makes about 197HP and about 340 lb-ft torque. Meanwhile, at 3000RPM, the 4.3L is making about 163HP and about 302 lb-ft torque. Just as a curiousity, at 3400RPM, the 4.6L makes about 355 lb-ft torque. So compared with the 4.3L, the 4.6L makes about 14% more torque at the same RPM.
At 4000RPM, the gap only widens. The 4.6L at this point makes about 285HP and has virtually reached it's peak torque at this point, so torque is about 365- 368 lb-ft. The 4.3L makes about 217HP and by this point torque has already dropped to about 305 lb-ft.
Finally, lets compare the output of both engines at 6400RPM, and see how much "juice" each engine still has at such a high RPM. At 6400RPM, the 4.6L reaches peak HP of about 380-385HP. It also, incredibly, is still making about 310 lb-ft of torque at this point. The 4.3L on the other hand, is just about running out of breath, making about 250HP and a lowly 240 lb-ft torque. It's also quite evident how much racing technology and inspiration went into this new 4.6L V8.
Also, if you look at the accompanying 2GR-FSE graph, you'll see that it's HP curve is very similar to the 1UR-FSE's curve. That means Lexus designed this new engine to be more sporty, with a high HP increase as revs increased, yet maintain strong torque. Also we can see that the new 1UR-FSE was tuned a bit more towards HP than torque, again for increased sportiness. Whereas the 2GR-FSE has a very flat torque curve though, the 4.6L V8 has a "mountain" of torque, typical of a V8, designed to give that big torquey "punch".
The upcoming 5.0L V8 which will be first seen in the LS hybrid is for all intents and purposes a bored-out version of the 4.6L V8. This 5.0L unit is already being used in the Rolex Sports Car Series in race form. The torque curve for this engine should be even more impressive. I also personally think that in a few years this engine will be offered in the standard LS as an option, or possibly replace the 4.6L V8. Also latest rumours are that the upcoming Lexus supercar will use a high performance version of this 5.0L V8. If this is the case, it will be the perfect opportunity to showcase what the new 5.0L V8 can do, outside of racing of course.
Finally, here are some pics of the 1UR-FSE along with the accompanying 8 speed tranny:
EDIT: Speculation on upcoming 5.0L V8, and made a few spelling corrections.
09-23-06, 11:02 PM
#35
Guest
Posts: n/a
So you couldn't catch the sarcasm???
My whole point was that not everything is about all out power. Why do people buy Toyota Camry's when they could buy Subaru WRX STI's? Why do people buy Buicks? Why buy a Mercedes E550 when you could have a Roush Mustang, plus a bunch of left over cash to mod it? Why? Because not everyone buys a car just because of what it's 1/4 mile time is.
If the world was all about powers, we'd all be driving high performance cars. When I bought my Lexus, I could have easily bought an LS1 Camaro or a Roush Mustang. Easily.
How many cars out there have 590 lb. ft. of torque? Does the Ferrari Enzo even have that much? It's ridiculous to set that standard for a car. Who uses that kind of power anyway on a daily basis on public roads? I love high performance myself, but to say that a car has to have 590 lb. ft. of torque is ignorant. My cars has 300 Horsepower, but when can I honestly say I need all of that everyday? How many times is the average S600 owner is going to need all 590 lb. ft. of torque? Lexus doesn't have a stock production car with 500 lb. ft. of torque. BMW doesn't. Most car companies don't.
There is no brand loyalty in this case. In fact, since you're the one talking Mercedes V12, I think you're the one that's about brand loyalty.
I don't mean to start up ****, but it's just that I have a problem with a performance car having to have that much torque to be classified as one.
My whole point was that not everything is about all out power. Why do people buy Toyota Camry's when they could buy Subaru WRX STI's? Why do people buy Buicks? Why buy a Mercedes E550 when you could have a Roush Mustang, plus a bunch of left over cash to mod it? Why? Because not everyone buys a car just because of what it's 1/4 mile time is.
If the world was all about powers, we'd all be driving high performance cars. When I bought my Lexus, I could have easily bought an LS1 Camaro or a Roush Mustang. Easily.
How many cars out there have 590 lb. ft. of torque? Does the Ferrari Enzo even have that much? It's ridiculous to set that standard for a car. Who uses that kind of power anyway on a daily basis on public roads? I love high performance myself, but to say that a car has to have 590 lb. ft. of torque is ignorant. My cars has 300 Horsepower, but when can I honestly say I need all of that everyday? How many times is the average S600 owner is going to need all 590 lb. ft. of torque? Lexus doesn't have a stock production car with 500 lb. ft. of torque. BMW doesn't. Most car companies don't.
There is no brand loyalty in this case. In fact, since you're the one talking Mercedes V12, I think you're the one that's about brand loyalty.
I don't mean to start up ****, but it's just that I have a problem with a performance car having to have that much torque to be classified as one.
09-24-06, 06:50 AM
#36
EV ftw!!!
In my previous post, I had said it was my mistake. I didn't mean to compare the 4.6L Lexus engine to the 5.5L Mercedes engine.
However, your post is about as ignorant as ever. The SC430 is no where in the leauge of a Roush Stage 3 Mustang ... much less a stock Mustang... and that extends throughout you're entire post.
However, your post is about as ignorant as ever. The SC430 is no where in the leauge of a Roush Stage 3 Mustang ... much less a stock Mustang... and that extends throughout you're entire post.
I hope your were joking.
Read my initial post sparking this.
Sometimes you guys are so caught up in blind brand loyalty I feel sorry for you guys. Each and every car on the market has it's pros and cons.
Read my initial post sparking this.
Sometimes you guys are so caught up in blind brand loyalty I feel sorry for you guys. Each and every car on the market has it's pros and cons.
This is a Lexus forum, what do you honestly expect?
09-27-06, 06:52 AM
#37
LS600h can be compared to S550, because thats where it is price wise....
You cant compare it with S600 since it costs 145k (with optional bluetooth kit included).
You cant compare it because it would be very unfair to S600 :-)
You cant compare it with S600 since it costs 145k (with optional bluetooth kit included).
You cant compare it because it would be very unfair to S600 :-)
09-27-06, 08:18 AM
#38
Regardless of the cost of each, you can compare them either as a total entity, or you can compare individual components.
For example, you can compare the quietness of the LS600hL to the S600. You can compare the usability of the controls. The paint quality, the acceleration, the handling, the seat comfort, and on and on.
Some features are better on one car or the other. NO car is best at everything.
One chooses which car to purchase, then, by selecting which subset of features are the most important, and then which car is superior in those features.
Price is an issue only when it becomes a barrier to one of the choices.
HBH
10-03-06, 06:43 AM
#40
The LS600hl better be faster than the S550, otherwise the whole nomenclature is misleading.
600 means it's in the V12 600 class. The competitor is the S600. That car makes 590lb-ft torque (detuned!). If Lexus can't keep up, they can't making an equal or better car, it's worse in that department and sadly for Lexus, that department plays a really big role. You guys said it yourself, why buy car X when car Y has more blah for cheaper? Name, status, it's a symbol. You don't know a LS600 because it's got more features than the LS460, you buy it because it's the 600! Same reason why you buy the S600 over the S550. The S550 is no slouch, but the S600 has those V12 emblems that say 'yeah, I've made it'. How hard is it to make gobs ofpower? Not very. As primitive as forced induction is, it works and it's niiiiiice
Hopefully BMW will throw something in to pep up their puny 760Li with Lexus on their toes.
You guys are just trying to defend the lack of Lexus ingenuity. 2003 was when Mercedes threw in twin turbos on the V12. Lexus has had a few years to catch up and they blew it.
Combine that with the lack of many features on the LS600 that are common place on many other cars, I'm rethinking getting the LS and just waiting for the 'next best' thing.
It's not like I'm biased. Yes I'm a major member at mbworld.org, but I've got two Lexus's and my first car was a LS400.
600 means it's in the V12 600 class. The competitor is the S600. That car makes 590lb-ft torque (detuned!). If Lexus can't keep up, they can't making an equal or better car, it's worse in that department and sadly for Lexus, that department plays a really big role. You guys said it yourself, why buy car X when car Y has more blah for cheaper? Name, status, it's a symbol. You don't know a LS600 because it's got more features than the LS460, you buy it because it's the 600! Same reason why you buy the S600 over the S550. The S550 is no slouch, but the S600 has those V12 emblems that say 'yeah, I've made it'. How hard is it to make gobs ofpower? Not very. As primitive as forced induction is, it works and it's niiiiiice
Hopefully BMW will throw something in to pep up their puny 760Li with Lexus on their toes.You guys are just trying to defend the lack of Lexus ingenuity. 2003 was when Mercedes threw in twin turbos on the V12. Lexus has had a few years to catch up and they blew it.
Combine that with the lack of many features on the LS600 that are common place on many other cars, I'm rethinking getting the LS and just waiting for the 'next best' thing.
It's not like I'm biased. Yes I'm a major member at mbworld.org, but I've got two Lexus's and my first car was a LS400.
Last edited by vraa; 10-03-06 at 08:33 AM.
10-03-06, 08:36 AM
#41
No, the S600 is not "exotic" per se, but it *is* a very limited prestige model. Honestly, how many S600s do you see on the road? Or go ahead and look at S600 sales, they are extremely small, and that is to be expected with car that has 140K base price.
S600 has bi-turbo V12 engine, and has the fuel economy of a Hummer. Certainly not competition for the LS460.
S600 has bi-turbo V12 engine, and has the fuel economy of a Hummer. Certainly not competition for the LS460.
That's two and a half hummers
10-03-06, 08:42 AM
#42
Yup, the post by TRDFantasy claiming a S600 gets worse
gas milage than a Hummer is bogus. Then again, how many
people can actually afford to get a S600 in Canada right?
Seriously though, when lexus came up with the tag "LS600H"
it was intended to hit MB's S600. Its only right you compare
the LS to the car it was meant to compete with, the S600.
I am curious to see how the handling is on the LS, because
the last LS I test drove was a boat. Sad to say, but a MB S
handles way better than a Lexus LS.
gas milage than a Hummer is bogus. Then again, how many
people can actually afford to get a S600 in Canada right?
Seriously though, when lexus came up with the tag "LS600H"
it was intended to hit MB's S600. Its only right you compare
the LS to the car it was meant to compete with, the S600.
I am curious to see how the handling is on the LS, because
the last LS I test drove was a boat. Sad to say, but a MB S
handles way better than a Lexus LS.
10-03-06, 08:49 AM
#43
Yup, the post by TRDFantasy claiming a S600 gets worse
gas milage than a Hummer is bogus. Then again, how many
people can actually afford to get a S600 in Canada right?
Seriously though, when lexus came up with the tag "LS600H"
it was intended to hit MB's S600. Its only right you compare
the LS to the car it was meant to compete with, the S600.
I am curious to see how the handling is on the LS, because
the last LS I test drove was a boat. Sad to say, but a MB S
handles way better than a Lexus LS.
gas milage than a Hummer is bogus. Then again, how many
people can actually afford to get a S600 in Canada right?
Seriously though, when lexus came up with the tag "LS600H"
it was intended to hit MB's S600. Its only right you compare
the LS to the car it was meant to compete with, the S600.
I am curious to see how the handling is on the LS, because
the last LS I test drove was a boat. Sad to say, but a MB S
handles way better than a Lexus LS.
The sport switch IMO turns it into just under what I'd realllllly want. I'm glad the LS430 has the split personality. Cruise on air when you want. PWR mode on. Sport mode on. Gear shift in sport mode and you're a wanna-be racer
I'd prefer sport mode suspension was just a nick tighter and harsher though.
Does anyone know information on the Audi S8/RS8? (Does the latter even exist?)
10-03-06, 08:53 AM
#44
It was an LS430 Ultra. It just had a boaty feel to it.
It had some nice features to it, but after driving MB's
for so long, I felt it was boring. I need a German car,
or a well built Japanese car that can capture that
"fun spirited driving style."
It had some nice features to it, but after driving MB's
for so long, I felt it was boring. I need a German car,
or a well built Japanese car that can capture that
"fun spirited driving style."
10-03-06, 09:24 AM
#45
after test driving the ls460 and the s550, i dont' see the s550 being any faster than the ls460. so i am sure the ls600hl will be faster for sure. but i doubt if it will be as fast as the s600 since that's tt setup. you take a 760il and it's not going to be faster than the s600 anyway