2005 LS Transmission Maintenance
08-28-10, 08:53 AM
#31
If you're going to drive the LS430 to the ground because you love it so, then conventional wisdom would say that if you can drain and fill with fresh WS-ATF, then do it every 100K or so because no fluid is going to last the "life" of the car. If the fluid fails at 200k, then that's the life of the car right? If the fluid fails at 250K, then that's the life of the car. If it fails 100k, that's the life of the car. It's surely not going to fail during the warranty period. So, you want the "life of the car" to last truely as long as possible, then flush and fill with the special took every 100K. 100K is just my "magic number" nothing here that's from experience.
08-28-10, 05:20 PM
#32
The truth of the matter is that, although lubrication technology has advanced quite substantially in recent decades, no lubricant can last forever. Hydraulic fluids can, and do, break down with use, heat cycling and time.
Transmissions operate at moderately high temperatures, require specific viscosity (for proper operation of the torque converter), have sliding parts in the shift solenoids and valve bodies, and can therefore experience wear and tear. Furthermore, there are many seals in the transmissions that must hold up to the high fluid pressures and cooling/heating cycles over time.
Some people have referenced wheel bearings as a comparable example to a transmission. What happens in a wheel bearing is not even close to being similar to what happens in a transmission but even if it was, the scope of the repair when a failure occurs is light years apart. Lifetime sealed wheel bearings DO fail and can usually be replaced at relatively low cost. Lifetime sealed transmissions also DO fail and when that happens the repair is usually at a relatively high cost which is many, many multiples greater than the that of the wheel bearing replacement.
Conceptually, the idea of having a permanently sealed transmission with a "lifetime" fluid is pure idiocy in my opinion. The fluid may become contaminated over time as the friction material in the clutch packs breaks down over time from use. Also, the anti-oxidation, lubrication and viscosity properties of the fluid are likely to change over time as well.
The number one cause of transmission failures is negligence on the part of the owner for NOT changing the fluid on a timely schedule. Most people do not realize that the major fluids in any car must be changed with relative frequency to ensure longevity. Also, many manufactures are also negligent in not do a good job of communicating service schedules for things like brake fluid, power steering fluid, coolant and transmission fluid.
I am not specifically familiar with the Toyota WS transmission fluid, but I would have to guess that it is an advanced synthetic or semi-synthetic hydraulic fluid. This means that the longevity of the fluid may be better than traditional transmission fluids and may be able to handle more heating/cooling cycles while being able to hold in suspension more impurities and still deliver "good enough" lubrication.
So long as the transmission fluid is changed properly, it is impossible to cause damage to the transmission by changing the fluid early. On the other hand, waiting too long to change the fluid in any transmission will result in damage to the transmission (to either a greater or lesser degree) depending on a wide range of variables.
The ultimate question is whether or not one wants to believe that the Toyota WS fluid is capable of 3x the life of a traditional transmission fluid (30k change interval vs. 90k change interval) and also whether or not the transmission filter is designed in a way to be able to capture and retain worn clutch materials while still allowing sufficient fluid flow for 90k miles. For comparison (although not exactly the same), one might think of this as similar to running a synthetic motor oil for 9000 miles instead of the traditional 3000 miles on the same oil filter.
For myself, I find it hard to trust the oil manufacturers and find it difficult to run any engine oil, no matter how good, for more than about 5,000 miles. Manufacturers may claim that their oils can go 10k or more but I personally don't feel comfortable with that. Likewise, with transmission fluid, I do not feel comfortable going 90k no matter what fluid is in there. It is usually considered cheap insurance to change fluids early and frequently versus late and infrequently and I think the same general rationale applies to the questions posed in this thread.
I would however be very interested to know more about the WS transmission fluid, what kind of synthetic it is Group II,III or IV, who manufactures it for Toyota, and what claims have been made about it's performance relative to prior generation transmission fluids.
Lastly, as to the question of longevity of the transmission and Lexus vehicles, I would tend to agree that Toyota wants their vehicles to last a long time, but only to a point. They want their vehicles to outlast the competition, but not to last so long that their customers never come back to buy another vehicle! It is well known that manufacturers could take many steps to further improve the longevity of their automobiles, but few if any take those steps. One example is the concept of oil bypass filters for the engine - big rig trucks use them with tremendous success and reduce the wear on their engines substantially as a result. Another example are things like oil coolers for the engine and transmission as well as larger crank cases that can hold more oil overall. Also, engineering design decisions regarding the kinds of metal alloys to use throughout the engine can determine how long any individual part will last. Better alloys may last longer, but at higher cost to the manufacturer. The smart manufacturers, like Toyota, carefully test their equipment (engines/transmissions/etc.) to determine estimated life expectancy before a vehicle is ever sold. The benefit of this is that the engineers can design to a specific life expectancy and thereby keep costs down while determining how long any vehicle is likely to last, while still beating the competition for reliability . . .
As owners, we have the option to either follow the "as designed" life expectancy of major parts like engines and transmissions, or to take specific measures to improve the odds of longer than average life expectancy. Frequent fluid changes is the only way I know of to improve one's odds of beating the averages.
I hope this long post may help someone . . .
Andrew
Transmissions operate at moderately high temperatures, require specific viscosity (for proper operation of the torque converter), have sliding parts in the shift solenoids and valve bodies, and can therefore experience wear and tear. Furthermore, there are many seals in the transmissions that must hold up to the high fluid pressures and cooling/heating cycles over time.
Some people have referenced wheel bearings as a comparable example to a transmission. What happens in a wheel bearing is not even close to being similar to what happens in a transmission but even if it was, the scope of the repair when a failure occurs is light years apart. Lifetime sealed wheel bearings DO fail and can usually be replaced at relatively low cost. Lifetime sealed transmissions also DO fail and when that happens the repair is usually at a relatively high cost which is many, many multiples greater than the that of the wheel bearing replacement.
Conceptually, the idea of having a permanently sealed transmission with a "lifetime" fluid is pure idiocy in my opinion. The fluid may become contaminated over time as the friction material in the clutch packs breaks down over time from use. Also, the anti-oxidation, lubrication and viscosity properties of the fluid are likely to change over time as well.
The number one cause of transmission failures is negligence on the part of the owner for NOT changing the fluid on a timely schedule. Most people do not realize that the major fluids in any car must be changed with relative frequency to ensure longevity. Also, many manufactures are also negligent in not do a good job of communicating service schedules for things like brake fluid, power steering fluid, coolant and transmission fluid.
I am not specifically familiar with the Toyota WS transmission fluid, but I would have to guess that it is an advanced synthetic or semi-synthetic hydraulic fluid. This means that the longevity of the fluid may be better than traditional transmission fluids and may be able to handle more heating/cooling cycles while being able to hold in suspension more impurities and still deliver "good enough" lubrication.
So long as the transmission fluid is changed properly, it is impossible to cause damage to the transmission by changing the fluid early. On the other hand, waiting too long to change the fluid in any transmission will result in damage to the transmission (to either a greater or lesser degree) depending on a wide range of variables.
The ultimate question is whether or not one wants to believe that the Toyota WS fluid is capable of 3x the life of a traditional transmission fluid (30k change interval vs. 90k change interval) and also whether or not the transmission filter is designed in a way to be able to capture and retain worn clutch materials while still allowing sufficient fluid flow for 90k miles. For comparison (although not exactly the same), one might think of this as similar to running a synthetic motor oil for 9000 miles instead of the traditional 3000 miles on the same oil filter.
For myself, I find it hard to trust the oil manufacturers and find it difficult to run any engine oil, no matter how good, for more than about 5,000 miles. Manufacturers may claim that their oils can go 10k or more but I personally don't feel comfortable with that. Likewise, with transmission fluid, I do not feel comfortable going 90k no matter what fluid is in there. It is usually considered cheap insurance to change fluids early and frequently versus late and infrequently and I think the same general rationale applies to the questions posed in this thread.
I would however be very interested to know more about the WS transmission fluid, what kind of synthetic it is Group II,III or IV, who manufactures it for Toyota, and what claims have been made about it's performance relative to prior generation transmission fluids.
Lastly, as to the question of longevity of the transmission and Lexus vehicles, I would tend to agree that Toyota wants their vehicles to last a long time, but only to a point. They want their vehicles to outlast the competition, but not to last so long that their customers never come back to buy another vehicle! It is well known that manufacturers could take many steps to further improve the longevity of their automobiles, but few if any take those steps. One example is the concept of oil bypass filters for the engine - big rig trucks use them with tremendous success and reduce the wear on their engines substantially as a result. Another example are things like oil coolers for the engine and transmission as well as larger crank cases that can hold more oil overall. Also, engineering design decisions regarding the kinds of metal alloys to use throughout the engine can determine how long any individual part will last. Better alloys may last longer, but at higher cost to the manufacturer. The smart manufacturers, like Toyota, carefully test their equipment (engines/transmissions/etc.) to determine estimated life expectancy before a vehicle is ever sold. The benefit of this is that the engineers can design to a specific life expectancy and thereby keep costs down while determining how long any vehicle is likely to last, while still beating the competition for reliability . . .
As owners, we have the option to either follow the "as designed" life expectancy of major parts like engines and transmissions, or to take specific measures to improve the odds of longer than average life expectancy. Frequent fluid changes is the only way I know of to improve one's odds of beating the averages.
I hope this long post may help someone . . .
Andrew
Last edited by abs; 08-28-10 at 05:31 PM.
08-28-10, 06:41 PM
#33
04-05 LS-430 Transmission Fluid Changes
Again, and again, my Dealership recommends I change my transmission fluid at 100,000 miles. My friend who is a Lexus Technician says do it at 100,000 miles. Is that so hard for people to adapt to ?
Many people don't change their transmission fluid on older cars, ever, and they keep going. Older cars and owners are warned to NOT change it if they reach high mileage and have not been keeping it changed because the new "Slippery" lubricant causes shifting problems in older cars.
As for me, if i cannot get a Dealership to tell me I NEED to change it before 100,000 miles, then that's when it will get done, at THEIR Dealership. It has 60,000 miles on it now and shifts like a dream. I have full confidence it will go another 40,000 unless I can get a Dealership to tell me it would be wise to change it sooner. IF they do, I will be HAPPY to let THEM change it with their equipment and trained personnel. If it doesn't shift happy, then THEY can repair it until it does, on their dime.
That's my story and I'm sticking with it. I'm from the old school also, and it's hard for me to adapt. I know it is for you guys/gals also. Most "Books" have recommended oil changes every 7,500 miles for many years, yet we let them sell us oil at 3,000 and/or 5,000 miles. I've always read from the "Pro's" 3,000 is a waste of your money and time. I've also been told if you would just change the filter and leave the oil, you would accomplish just as much.
So, we've been doing "Over-kill" on engine oil for years, now we are going to start doing over-kill on our trannies by waiting until 100,000 miles ? I am.
Good luck to all of you on whatever YOU decide to do and keep us posted on any transmission failures. Again, my Lexus Tech friend says he has never seen more than five (5) LS-430 Trannies fail in all the years he's been working on them, so I don't think Toyota has decided to break our wallets replacing transmission fluid at 100,000 miles at this point in the game. Five (5) out of a few thousand trannies is a pretty good record huh ?
Many people don't change their transmission fluid on older cars, ever, and they keep going. Older cars and owners are warned to NOT change it if they reach high mileage and have not been keeping it changed because the new "Slippery" lubricant causes shifting problems in older cars.
As for me, if i cannot get a Dealership to tell me I NEED to change it before 100,000 miles, then that's when it will get done, at THEIR Dealership. It has 60,000 miles on it now and shifts like a dream. I have full confidence it will go another 40,000 unless I can get a Dealership to tell me it would be wise to change it sooner. IF they do, I will be HAPPY to let THEM change it with their equipment and trained personnel. If it doesn't shift happy, then THEY can repair it until it does, on their dime.
That's my story and I'm sticking with it. I'm from the old school also, and it's hard for me to adapt. I know it is for you guys/gals also. Most "Books" have recommended oil changes every 7,500 miles for many years, yet we let them sell us oil at 3,000 and/or 5,000 miles. I've always read from the "Pro's" 3,000 is a waste of your money and time. I've also been told if you would just change the filter and leave the oil, you would accomplish just as much.
So, we've been doing "Over-kill" on engine oil for years, now we are going to start doing over-kill on our trannies by waiting until 100,000 miles ? I am.
Good luck to all of you on whatever YOU decide to do and keep us posted on any transmission failures. Again, my Lexus Tech friend says he has never seen more than five (5) LS-430 Trannies fail in all the years he's been working on them, so I don't think Toyota has decided to break our wallets replacing transmission fluid at 100,000 miles at this point in the game. Five (5) out of a few thousand trannies is a pretty good record huh ?
08-29-10, 06:23 AM
#34
Lexus Test Driver
Has anyone here had an analysis of their 04/06 old transmission oil done when they've had it changed? I'd be very curious to know the results... I'll be having mine changed soon @ 100k, I think I'll send it out to Blackstone for testing.
http://www.blackstone-labs.com/transmission.php
http://www.blackstone-labs.com/transmission.php
08-29-10, 08:40 AM
#35
Has anyone here had an analysis of their 04/06 old transmission oil done when they've had it changed? I'd be very curious to know the results... I'll be having mine changed soon @ 100k, I think I'll send it out to Blackstone for testing.
http://www.blackstone-labs.com/transmission.php
http://www.blackstone-labs.com/transmission.php
Andrew
08-29-10, 08:46 AM
#36
My change not going so well, 30k later...
Seemed ok when I wrote the article, but my shifting has been getting harsher and sometimes it feels like a clunk and drop when downshifting in a coast.
This could be age, but I am more concerned that the dealer may have used an old product that was exposed to the air too long or not Toyota fluid.
The tranny from when I bought it with 49K through 60K was so smooth you often wondered if it was shifting at all.
Now its very pronounced, considering having a different dealer change as I am approaching 120K
Again, this could be age related, but I will never know.
This could be age, but I am more concerned that the dealer may have used an old product that was exposed to the air too long or not Toyota fluid.
The tranny from when I bought it with 49K through 60K was so smooth you often wondered if it was shifting at all.
Now its very pronounced, considering having a different dealer change as I am approaching 120K
Again, this could be age related, but I will never know.
08-29-10, 08:53 AM
#37
Lexus Test Driver
08-29-10, 09:04 AM
#38
Again, and again, my Dealership recommends I change my transmission fluid at 100,000 miles. My friend who is a Lexus Technician says do it at 100,000 miles. Is that so hard for people to adapt to ?
Many people don't change their transmission fluid on older cars, ever, and they keep going. Older cars and owners are warned to NOT change it if they reach high mileage and have not been keeping it changed because the new "Slippery" lubricant causes shifting problems in older cars.
As for me, if i cannot get a Dealership to tell me I NEED to change it before 100,000 miles, then that's when it will get done, at THEIR Dealership. It has 60,000 miles on it now and shifts like a dream. I have full confidence it will go another 40,000 unless I can get a Dealership to tell me it would be wise to change it sooner. IF they do, I will be HAPPY to let THEM change it with their equipment and trained personnel. If it doesn't shift happy, then THEY can repair it until it does, on their dime.
That's my story and I'm sticking with it. I'm from the old school also, and it's hard for me to adapt. I know it is for you guys/gals also. Most "Books" have recommended oil changes every 7,500 miles for many years, yet we let them sell us oil at 3,000 and/or 5,000 miles. I've always read from the "Pro's" 3,000 is a waste of your money and time. I've also been told if you would just change the filter and leave the oil, you would accomplish just as much.
So, we've been doing "Over-kill" on engine oil for years, now we are going to start doing over-kill on our trannies by waiting until 100,000 miles ? I am.
Good luck to all of you on whatever YOU decide to do and keep us posted on any transmission failures. Again, my Lexus Tech friend says he has never seen more than five (5) LS-430 Trannies fail in all the years he's been working on them, so I don't think Toyota has decided to break our wallets replacing transmission fluid at 100,000 miles at this point in the game. Five (5) out of a few thousand trannies is a pretty good record huh ?
Many people don't change their transmission fluid on older cars, ever, and they keep going. Older cars and owners are warned to NOT change it if they reach high mileage and have not been keeping it changed because the new "Slippery" lubricant causes shifting problems in older cars.
As for me, if i cannot get a Dealership to tell me I NEED to change it before 100,000 miles, then that's when it will get done, at THEIR Dealership. It has 60,000 miles on it now and shifts like a dream. I have full confidence it will go another 40,000 unless I can get a Dealership to tell me it would be wise to change it sooner. IF they do, I will be HAPPY to let THEM change it with their equipment and trained personnel. If it doesn't shift happy, then THEY can repair it until it does, on their dime.
That's my story and I'm sticking with it. I'm from the old school also, and it's hard for me to adapt. I know it is for you guys/gals also. Most "Books" have recommended oil changes every 7,500 miles for many years, yet we let them sell us oil at 3,000 and/or 5,000 miles. I've always read from the "Pro's" 3,000 is a waste of your money and time. I've also been told if you would just change the filter and leave the oil, you would accomplish just as much.
So, we've been doing "Over-kill" on engine oil for years, now we are going to start doing over-kill on our trannies by waiting until 100,000 miles ? I am.
Good luck to all of you on whatever YOU decide to do and keep us posted on any transmission failures. Again, my Lexus Tech friend says he has never seen more than five (5) LS-430 Trannies fail in all the years he's been working on them, so I don't think Toyota has decided to break our wallets replacing transmission fluid at 100,000 miles at this point in the game. Five (5) out of a few thousand trannies is a pretty good record huh ?
You may very well be right, but for myself, I won't be taking that chance with delaying out to 100k. In regard to some of the other comments you have made, I beg to differ with you. This one in particular:
"Older cars and owners are warned to NOT change it if they reach high mileage and have not been keeping it changed because the new "Slippery" lubricant causes shifting problems in older cars."
Also, not all oils can comfortably withstand 7500 miles in every vehicle. Many people do conduct used oil analysis to determine the safe margin for a particular oil in their specific vehicle and with their particular driving style. Have you ever checked out this web site: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com? Sure many people are able to go 7,500 miles with some of the newer oils, but it be absolutely wrong to make a blanket statement and assume that number of miles is always achievable for all people on the oil in their car. Also keep in mind that most folks just go to the local quick lube place and get the cheapest oil available. Turns out there are a number of examples of this maintenance approach causing major issues for some manufacturers. The Audi A4 with the 1.8L turbo engine comes to mind as does the Toyota 3.0 liter V6 engine. In both cases the engines would sludge due to a combination of engineering/design issues, long oil change frequencies and poor oil quality (non-synthetics) being recommended. Feel free to research these examples and you will quickly realize what I am talking about is true.
I have had a number of cars, which I bought used and which shortly after purchase developed transmission related issues. I was able to mostly resolve the problems by taking the effort to complete two complete fluid changes within a 30 day window, changing out the filter and adding in Lucas transmission conditioning fluid. This combo worked well but I am sure would have been completely unnecessary had the proper maintenance been performed all along. Also, if I hadn't changed out the fluid when I did and taken evasive action, I am 100% positive these transmissions would have died in short order. In one case I performed this work on a Mazda Milennia with 120k miles when I got it and which was banging into gears. Now, nearly 40k miles later, my cousin is still driving the vehicle without any transmission issues. The car was on its death bed with a failing transmission before I was able to successfully rehab it.
Some people insist that transmissions are so complicated that to change the fluid will cause imminent failure - this is absolutely NOT true and is a ludicrous comment on its face. This thinking defies logic and the facts.
In regard to your Lexus mechanic buddy, I wonder how many people who have a failed transmission are: a) still under warranty and if not b) would decide to bring the car back to Lexus instead of a specialty transmission repair shop? Obviously this is a rhetorical question but I think your sample size of 1 mechanic combined with the dynamics of human nature may be skewing the mechanics perception on this particular point. Do you have any national statistics from Aamco transmissions or even Lexus USA for example? I'd like to review them if they are available. Let's look at a statistically relevant sample shall we?
I will also stand by my bottom line comment from above which is that early changes of ANY fluid in a car (with the possible exception of the new organic coolants because it takes some time for them to become effective) can only provide more of a safety margin from a wear and tear perspective, admittedly at some dollar expense to the owner. Is it necessary? For some most likely "yes" for others, perhaps not. The question is whether one wants to take the chance. In your case, you have decided to take the chance - that is your decision and I hope that you don't experience any issues.
I will agree with you that each individual owner will have to make his own choices in regard to the question of fluid changes. My guess is that those of us who are pro-active about maintenance and are willing to spend the money will opt to do these fluid changes a little earlier than others . . .
Andrew
08-29-10, 09:06 AM
#39
Seemed ok when I wrote the article, but my shifting has been getting harsher and sometimes it feels like a clunk and drop when downshifting in a coast.
This could be age, but I am more concerned that the dealer may have used an old product that was exposed to the air too long or not Toyota fluid.
The tranny from when I bought it with 49K through 60K was so smooth you often wondered if it was shifting at all.
Now its very pronounced, considering having a different dealer change as I am approaching 120K
Again, this could be age related, but I will never know.
This could be age, but I am more concerned that the dealer may have used an old product that was exposed to the air too long or not Toyota fluid.
The tranny from when I bought it with 49K through 60K was so smooth you often wondered if it was shifting at all.
Now its very pronounced, considering having a different dealer change as I am approaching 120K
Again, this could be age related, but I will never know.
Andrew
09-02-10, 02:12 PM
#41
in order to get a VOA to give a frame of reference he should get it from the bottle his fluid originated. Obviously we cant do that so then it wont be exactly scientific.
09-02-10, 02:20 PM
#42
The truth of the matter is that, although lubrication technology has advanced quite substantially in recent decades, no lubricant can last forever. Hydraulic fluids can, and do, break down with use, heat cycling and time.
Transmissions operate at moderately high temperatures, require specific viscosity (for proper operation of the torque converter), have sliding parts in the shift solenoids and valve bodies, and can therefore experience wear and tear. Furthermore, there are many seals in the transmissions that must hold up to the high fluid pressures and cooling/heating cycles over time.
Some people have referenced wheel bearings as a comparable example to a transmission. What happens in a wheel bearing is not even close to being similar to what happens in a transmission but even if it was, the scope of the repair when a failure occurs is light years apart. Lifetime sealed wheel bearings DO fail and can usually be replaced at relatively low cost. Lifetime sealed transmissions also DO fail and when that happens the repair is usually at a relatively high cost which is many, many multiples greater than the that of the wheel bearing replacement.
Conceptually, the idea of having a permanently sealed transmission with a "lifetime" fluid is pure idiocy in my opinion. The fluid may become contaminated over time as the friction material in the clutch packs breaks down over time from use. Also, the anti-oxidation, lubrication and viscosity properties of the fluid are likely to change over time as well.
The number one cause of transmission failures is negligence on the part of the owner for NOT changing the fluid on a timely schedule. Most people do not realize that the major fluids in any car must be changed with relative frequency to ensure longevity. Also, many manufactures are also negligent in not do a good job of communicating service schedules for things like brake fluid, power steering fluid, coolant and transmission fluid.
I am not specifically familiar with the Toyota WS transmission fluid, but I would have to guess that it is an advanced synthetic or semi-synthetic hydraulic fluid. This means that the longevity of the fluid may be better than traditional transmission fluids and may be able to handle more heating/cooling cycles while being able to hold in suspension more impurities and still deliver "good enough" lubrication.
So long as the transmission fluid is changed properly, it is impossible to cause damage to the transmission by changing the fluid early. On the other hand, waiting too long to change the fluid in any transmission will result in damage to the transmission (to either a greater or lesser degree) depending on a wide range of variables.
The ultimate question is whether or not one wants to believe that the Toyota WS fluid is capable of 3x the life of a traditional transmission fluid (30k change interval vs. 90k change interval) and also whether or not the transmission filter is designed in a way to be able to capture and retain worn clutch materials while still allowing sufficient fluid flow for 90k miles. For comparison (although not exactly the same), one might think of this as similar to running a synthetic motor oil for 9000 miles instead of the traditional 3000 miles on the same oil filter.
For myself, I find it hard to trust the oil manufacturers and find it difficult to run any engine oil, no matter how good, for more than about 5,000 miles. Manufacturers may claim that their oils can go 10k or more but I personally don't feel comfortable with that. Likewise, with transmission fluid, I do not feel comfortable going 90k no matter what fluid is in there. It is usually considered cheap insurance to change fluids early and frequently versus late and infrequently and I think the same general rationale applies to the questions posed in this thread.
I would however be very interested to know more about the WS transmission fluid, what kind of synthetic it is Group II,III or IV, who manufactures it for Toyota, and what claims have been made about it's performance relative to prior generation transmission fluids.
Lastly, as to the question of longevity of the transmission and Lexus vehicles, I would tend to agree that Toyota wants their vehicles to last a long time, but only to a point. They want their vehicles to outlast the competition, but not to last so long that their customers never come back to buy another vehicle! It is well known that manufacturers could take many steps to further improve the longevity of their automobiles, but few if any take those steps. One example is the concept of oil bypass filters for the engine - big rig trucks use them with tremendous success and reduce the wear on their engines substantially as a result. Another example are things like oil coolers for the engine and transmission as well as larger crank cases that can hold more oil overall. Also, engineering design decisions regarding the kinds of metal alloys to use throughout the engine can determine how long any individual part will last. Better alloys may last longer, but at higher cost to the manufacturer. The smart manufacturers, like Toyota, carefully test their equipment (engines/transmissions/etc.) to determine estimated life expectancy before a vehicle is ever sold. The benefit of this is that the engineers can design to a specific life expectancy and thereby keep costs down while determining how long any vehicle is likely to last, while still beating the competition for reliability . . .
As owners, we have the option to either follow the "as designed" life expectancy of major parts like engines and transmissions, or to take specific measures to improve the odds of longer than average life expectancy. Frequent fluid changes is the only way I know of to improve one's odds of beating the averages.
I hope this long post may help someone . . .
Andrew
Transmissions operate at moderately high temperatures, require specific viscosity (for proper operation of the torque converter), have sliding parts in the shift solenoids and valve bodies, and can therefore experience wear and tear. Furthermore, there are many seals in the transmissions that must hold up to the high fluid pressures and cooling/heating cycles over time.
Some people have referenced wheel bearings as a comparable example to a transmission. What happens in a wheel bearing is not even close to being similar to what happens in a transmission but even if it was, the scope of the repair when a failure occurs is light years apart. Lifetime sealed wheel bearings DO fail and can usually be replaced at relatively low cost. Lifetime sealed transmissions also DO fail and when that happens the repair is usually at a relatively high cost which is many, many multiples greater than the that of the wheel bearing replacement.
Conceptually, the idea of having a permanently sealed transmission with a "lifetime" fluid is pure idiocy in my opinion. The fluid may become contaminated over time as the friction material in the clutch packs breaks down over time from use. Also, the anti-oxidation, lubrication and viscosity properties of the fluid are likely to change over time as well.
The number one cause of transmission failures is negligence on the part of the owner for NOT changing the fluid on a timely schedule. Most people do not realize that the major fluids in any car must be changed with relative frequency to ensure longevity. Also, many manufactures are also negligent in not do a good job of communicating service schedules for things like brake fluid, power steering fluid, coolant and transmission fluid.
I am not specifically familiar with the Toyota WS transmission fluid, but I would have to guess that it is an advanced synthetic or semi-synthetic hydraulic fluid. This means that the longevity of the fluid may be better than traditional transmission fluids and may be able to handle more heating/cooling cycles while being able to hold in suspension more impurities and still deliver "good enough" lubrication.
So long as the transmission fluid is changed properly, it is impossible to cause damage to the transmission by changing the fluid early. On the other hand, waiting too long to change the fluid in any transmission will result in damage to the transmission (to either a greater or lesser degree) depending on a wide range of variables.
The ultimate question is whether or not one wants to believe that the Toyota WS fluid is capable of 3x the life of a traditional transmission fluid (30k change interval vs. 90k change interval) and also whether or not the transmission filter is designed in a way to be able to capture and retain worn clutch materials while still allowing sufficient fluid flow for 90k miles. For comparison (although not exactly the same), one might think of this as similar to running a synthetic motor oil for 9000 miles instead of the traditional 3000 miles on the same oil filter.
For myself, I find it hard to trust the oil manufacturers and find it difficult to run any engine oil, no matter how good, for more than about 5,000 miles. Manufacturers may claim that their oils can go 10k or more but I personally don't feel comfortable with that. Likewise, with transmission fluid, I do not feel comfortable going 90k no matter what fluid is in there. It is usually considered cheap insurance to change fluids early and frequently versus late and infrequently and I think the same general rationale applies to the questions posed in this thread.
I would however be very interested to know more about the WS transmission fluid, what kind of synthetic it is Group II,III or IV, who manufactures it for Toyota, and what claims have been made about it's performance relative to prior generation transmission fluids.
Lastly, as to the question of longevity of the transmission and Lexus vehicles, I would tend to agree that Toyota wants their vehicles to last a long time, but only to a point. They want their vehicles to outlast the competition, but not to last so long that their customers never come back to buy another vehicle! It is well known that manufacturers could take many steps to further improve the longevity of their automobiles, but few if any take those steps. One example is the concept of oil bypass filters for the engine - big rig trucks use them with tremendous success and reduce the wear on their engines substantially as a result. Another example are things like oil coolers for the engine and transmission as well as larger crank cases that can hold more oil overall. Also, engineering design decisions regarding the kinds of metal alloys to use throughout the engine can determine how long any individual part will last. Better alloys may last longer, but at higher cost to the manufacturer. The smart manufacturers, like Toyota, carefully test their equipment (engines/transmissions/etc.) to determine estimated life expectancy before a vehicle is ever sold. The benefit of this is that the engineers can design to a specific life expectancy and thereby keep costs down while determining how long any vehicle is likely to last, while still beating the competition for reliability . . .
As owners, we have the option to either follow the "as designed" life expectancy of major parts like engines and transmissions, or to take specific measures to improve the odds of longer than average life expectancy. Frequent fluid changes is the only way I know of to improve one's odds of beating the averages.
I hope this long post may help someone . . .
Andrew
I totally agree with you, In my car I changed out my fluid at 40k, My Dads car was at 69k and we went to the dealer that he always takes it too.
The Service Manager starting giving the run around saying you cant change it its sealed. Then he said you cant change it until 100k then he said you cant change it at any time, since then it will cause Tranny problems. They were going to make us sign a waiver too.
Now the car is a 76k and the fluid has not been changed. Lots of people say they changed it after 100k and were find but people say transmission shops wont touch your car after 80k and he is nearing that. So I have no idea what to do.
The guys over at BITOG say change it, if it breaks after the fluid change something was already broken, but if the old fluid is keeping it from breaking I dont want to change it, know what I mean?
Last edited by tsslaporte; 09-02-10 at 02:25 PM.
09-02-10, 09:26 PM
#43
I'm having my WS changed out after 5 yrs and 30K mi. No fluid lasts 100K mi whatever they tell 'ya. Sure, you can drive an auto tranny over 100K mi w/o ever changing the tranny, but once you do change the fluid, they are known to catastrophically fail (buildup/stuff breaks loose, destroys the internals). For me, I don't let any fluid go longer than 5 yrs., especially here in So. AZ. The heat is a killer on fluids, especially ATF. I can tell 'ya from personal experience that the Toyota red long life coolant ('03 and earlier vehicles) lasts at most 2.5-3 yrs (about 30-36K mi of driving). I let it run a little over 3 yrs in my 4runner and the radiator started to sludge a bit...coolant was rusty brown. It still worked fine, but lost it's rust inhibitors. I plan to change my super long life coolant soon at 5 yrs (equivalent of 60K mi of driving). Ditto w/ my rear diff fluid. I will change it to Mobil 1 synthetic 75w90 (partly since I have half of a 5 gal pail remaining, and my wife's LX is at the 90K service point).
BTW, some LS's got synthetic diff fluid. Those that did will have a stamp in the side of the diff saying to use synthetic fluid only. abs, I sent you a message.
BTW, some LS's got synthetic diff fluid. Those that did will have a stamp in the side of the diff saying to use synthetic fluid only. abs, I sent you a message.
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