How to test for AWD shudder on a test drive?
01-07-17, 09:00 AM
#1
Racer
Thread Starter
How to test for AWD shudder on a test drive?
Hi everyone,
My wife and I are giving serious consideration to the following 2009 LS460L AWD. The color combo isn't my top choice but the options, maintenance history, and responsive/professional exchanges with the dealership are swaying us. I would have to fly to Topeka, KS to test drive and, hopefully, drive the car home.
I have checked out as much as I can online. Still need to ask the salesperson to check the health of the hood struts for me. My main concern is how do I test for drivetrain shudder or vibration? There aren't a whole lot of AWD in California for me to test. I realize it occurs around 20-45mph, mostly on hills, and during slight application of the gas pedal. What if Topeka, KS doesn't have hills? What are some other tell-tale signs of "shudder"? Does the whole car shake when people refer to "shudder"? Or is it a subtle vibration you feel in the steering wheel like when a tire is unbalanced? Any help or suggestions is greatly appreciated. We are still waiting for the price to drop a little more before making a final decision. The LS500 is right around the corner too so that should help our cause. Thanks, everyone!
http://www.nollerford-topeka.com/use...earchDepth=1:2
My wife and I are giving serious consideration to the following 2009 LS460L AWD. The color combo isn't my top choice but the options, maintenance history, and responsive/professional exchanges with the dealership are swaying us. I would have to fly to Topeka, KS to test drive and, hopefully, drive the car home.
I have checked out as much as I can online. Still need to ask the salesperson to check the health of the hood struts for me. My main concern is how do I test for drivetrain shudder or vibration? There aren't a whole lot of AWD in California for me to test. I realize it occurs around 20-45mph, mostly on hills, and during slight application of the gas pedal. What if Topeka, KS doesn't have hills? What are some other tell-tale signs of "shudder"? Does the whole car shake when people refer to "shudder"? Or is it a subtle vibration you feel in the steering wheel like when a tire is unbalanced? Any help or suggestions is greatly appreciated. We are still waiting for the price to drop a little more before making a final decision. The LS500 is right around the corner too so that should help our cause. Thanks, everyone!
http://www.nollerford-topeka.com/use...earchDepth=1:2
01-07-17, 09:59 AM
#3
Racer
Thread Starter
Thank you, hfahmy! What oil swap did they do? Was it the differential oil? And, if so, are there two differentials or just one? Thanks again for the u-tu-turn tip.
01-07-17, 10:22 AM
#5
Lead Lap
I've lived in Kansas since 1976 and have been all around the state and I don't remember seeing hills anywhere. I'm kidding. Kansas is largely rolling hills which become more even more noticeable as one drives west and south from Topeka.
Funny that you mention the shudder happening on hills at 20-45 mph. I remember precisely where I was when I noticed the shudder when I test drove an LS460L AWD in 2012. It was when driving east up a minor incline on 103rd Street, just west of Wornall Road in a 35 mph zone in Kansas City, Missouri -- about five blocks west of where the Lexus dealership used to be. I had heard about the shudder but was still surprised that I noticed it since I had assumed that it would have been fixed by 2012. My wife thinks I am overly sensitive and that I notice every buzz and vibration in a vehicle.
So, if the shudder is related to hills, it doesn't take much of one to experience it.
Surely you can find an LS460L AWD in California to test drive instead of travelling to the "Arm Pit of Kansas" to do it! Flying to Topeka? When did it get an airport? Actually, the Topeka airport is the old Forbes Air Force base which I flew in and out of in 1971 during my 1 year, 9 month incarceration in the Army.
Driving from Kansas to California for a car reminds me of when I sold my 1973 Mercedes 450SEL to a Kansas City used car dealer in 1979 and he personally delivered it to a buyer in L.A. less than 24 hours later - same guy who test drove it at over 100 mph in a 35 mph zone past the "old money" mansions on Ward Parkway in Kansas City ... scared the crap out of me but he said he knew the local cops. He should have been in a mental institution ... or a prison.
Back to being serious, I see a button "blank" on the lower right of the steering wheel which means that this LS460L does not have DRCC (Dynamic Radar Cruise Control) and PCS (Pre-Collision System).
Funny that you mention the shudder happening on hills at 20-45 mph. I remember precisely where I was when I noticed the shudder when I test drove an LS460L AWD in 2012. It was when driving east up a minor incline on 103rd Street, just west of Wornall Road in a 35 mph zone in Kansas City, Missouri -- about five blocks west of where the Lexus dealership used to be. I had heard about the shudder but was still surprised that I noticed it since I had assumed that it would have been fixed by 2012. My wife thinks I am overly sensitive and that I notice every buzz and vibration in a vehicle.
So, if the shudder is related to hills, it doesn't take much of one to experience it.
Surely you can find an LS460L AWD in California to test drive instead of travelling to the "Arm Pit of Kansas" to do it! Flying to Topeka? When did it get an airport? Actually, the Topeka airport is the old Forbes Air Force base which I flew in and out of in 1971 during my 1 year, 9 month incarceration in the Army.
Driving from Kansas to California for a car reminds me of when I sold my 1973 Mercedes 450SEL to a Kansas City used car dealer in 1979 and he personally delivered it to a buyer in L.A. less than 24 hours later - same guy who test drove it at over 100 mph in a 35 mph zone past the "old money" mansions on Ward Parkway in Kansas City ... scared the crap out of me but he said he knew the local cops. He should have been in a mental institution ... or a prison.
Back to being serious, I see a button "blank" on the lower right of the steering wheel which means that this LS460L does not have DRCC (Dynamic Radar Cruise Control) and PCS (Pre-Collision System).
01-07-17, 10:40 AM
#6
Racer
Thread Starter
I've lived in Kansas since 1976 and have been all around the state and I don't remember seeing hills anywhere. I'm kidding. Kansas is largely rolling hills which become more even more noticeable as one drives west and south from Topeka.
Funny that you mention the shudder happening on hills at 20-45 mph. I remember precisely where I was when I noticed the shudder when I test drove an LS460L AWD in 2012. It was when driving east up a minor incline on 103rd Street, just west of Wornall Road in a 35 mph zone in Kansas City, Missouri -- about five blocks west of where the Lexus dealership used to be. I had heard about the shudder but was still surprised that I noticed it since I had assumed that it would have been fixed by 2012. My wife thinks I am overly sensitive and that I notice every buzz and vibration in a vehicle.
So, if the shudder is related to hills, it doesn't take much of one to experience it.
Surely you can find an LS460L AWD in California to test drive instead of travelling to the "Arm Pit of Kansas" to do it! Flying to Topeka? When did it get an airport? Actually, the Topeka airport is the old Forbes Air Force base which I flew in and out of in 1971 during my 1 year, 9 month incarceration in the Army.
Driving from Kansas to California for a car reminds me of when I sold my 1973 Mercedes 450SEL to a Kansas City used car dealer in 1979 and he personally delivered it to a buyer in L.A. less than 24 hours later - same guy who test drove it at over 100 mph in a 35 mph zone past the "old money" mansions on Ward Parkway in Kansas City ... scared the crap out of me but he said he knew the local cops. He should have been in a mental institution ... or a prison.
Back to being serious, I see a button "blank" on the lower right of the steering wheel which means that this LS460L does not have DRCC (Dynamic Radar Cruise Control) and PCS (Pre-Collision System).
Funny that you mention the shudder happening on hills at 20-45 mph. I remember precisely where I was when I noticed the shudder when I test drove an LS460L AWD in 2012. It was when driving east up a minor incline on 103rd Street, just west of Wornall Road in a 35 mph zone in Kansas City, Missouri -- about five blocks west of where the Lexus dealership used to be. I had heard about the shudder but was still surprised that I noticed it since I had assumed that it would have been fixed by 2012. My wife thinks I am overly sensitive and that I notice every buzz and vibration in a vehicle.
So, if the shudder is related to hills, it doesn't take much of one to experience it.
Surely you can find an LS460L AWD in California to test drive instead of travelling to the "Arm Pit of Kansas" to do it! Flying to Topeka? When did it get an airport? Actually, the Topeka airport is the old Forbes Air Force base which I flew in and out of in 1971 during my 1 year, 9 month incarceration in the Army.
Driving from Kansas to California for a car reminds me of when I sold my 1973 Mercedes 450SEL to a Kansas City used car dealer in 1979 and he personally delivered it to a buyer in L.A. less than 24 hours later - same guy who test drove it at over 100 mph in a 35 mph zone past the "old money" mansions on Ward Parkway in Kansas City ... scared the crap out of me but he said he knew the local cops. He should have been in a mental institution ... or a prison.
Back to being serious, I see a button "blank" on the lower right of the steering wheel which means that this LS460L does not have DRCC (Dynamic Radar Cruise Control) and PCS (Pre-Collision System).
A white on tan is my top choice but white exteriors are rare and hard to find one with the options we want. Listed 460s are predominantly black or black on black. Black exterior is absolutely a deal-breaker for us.
The Topeka Ford dealership has actually been the most responsive to my questions and they have been extremely polite through emails. I have contacted two other Lexus dealerships in Indiana and Illinois to inquire about their 460L listings and no reply. Woodfield Lexus has been particularly annoying because I have received repeated (at least four) "follow-up" emails from them yet the same salesperson never addresses the questions I sent her prior. The Woodfield emails are probably auto-generated but that doesn't explain why the dealership is not responding to an interested shopper. If they don't want our business then we will gladly take our money elsewhere.
01-07-17, 11:08 AM
#7
Lead Lap
3 owners, an accident bad enough to require towing and the last Lexus servicing according to CarFax occurred at around 18,000 miles. That and the fact the last owner flipped it after 9 months gives me pause. Have you gone to Lexus's owners site to see if there might be more records? Scarier still as Toyota servicing would show up.
It well might be that there are not many Lexus dealers in Kansas and the PO used other places. Also, it is kinda scary it shows being serviced at a Goodyear at 24,000 miles. Odd for a car that cost around $80,000 and was then only 3 years old.
Not trying to be negative and I am sure you are about burned out from searching for one. If nothing else, I would absolutely have a through PPI preformed at a Lexus dealer and at a collision center before booking airfare.
It well might be that there are not many Lexus dealers in Kansas and the PO used other places. Also, it is kinda scary it shows being serviced at a Goodyear at 24,000 miles. Odd for a car that cost around $80,000 and was then only 3 years old.
Not trying to be negative and I am sure you are about burned out from searching for one. If nothing else, I would absolutely have a through PPI preformed at a Lexus dealer and at a collision center before booking airfare.
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01-07-17, 11:25 AM
#8
Pole Position
I share Jungle's concerns. IMO, stay away from this vehicle. The 3rd owner drove it for 7000 miles and a few months before selling/trading. No record of service or any issues.
Fatherto1, you did due diligence on the SF car and learned details about the overheating episode, which was a deal breaker for me. The questions with this vehicle are worse. You have little information about the nature of the accident, perhaps you should find out what happened. The car has been driven about 50K miles since the accident, so maybe everything is OK. Still you don't know if there are hidden issues.
I know you are keen to get a vehicle with the features, color combo and price you want. And it may be reasonable to expect any vehicle in the 100K mile range to have issues. But this vehicle seems to have one too many, and I would stay away from it.
Fatherto1, you did due diligence on the SF car and learned details about the overheating episode, which was a deal breaker for me. The questions with this vehicle are worse. You have little information about the nature of the accident, perhaps you should find out what happened. The car has been driven about 50K miles since the accident, so maybe everything is OK. Still you don't know if there are hidden issues.
I know you are keen to get a vehicle with the features, color combo and price you want. And it may be reasonable to expect any vehicle in the 100K mile range to have issues. But this vehicle seems to have one too many, and I would stay away from it.
01-07-17, 11:32 AM
#9
Lead Lap
How about this one in Oceanside: http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-s...delCode1=LS460
Good service history and does not have a black interior. Not AWD though.
And here in your dream color in Utah with 45,000 miles and is AWD:http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-s...delCode1=LS460
There is no CarFax, but again if you go to the Lexus drivers website and enter the VIN, you can at least see how often it was serviced.
Good service history and does not have a black interior. Not AWD though.
And here in your dream color in Utah with 45,000 miles and is AWD:http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-s...delCode1=LS460
There is no CarFax, but again if you go to the Lexus drivers website and enter the VIN, you can at least see how often it was serviced.
01-07-17, 11:34 AM
#10
Racer
Thread Starter
01-07-17, 11:37 AM
#11
Lead Lap
After going to the car in Utah's dealer website, I am kinda worried as while the white car did not show up in the inventory, there was a black one that has a salvage title due to water damage. In my experience, only pretty shoddy dealers sell water damaged cars as the gremlins can be next to impossible to rectify.
01-07-17, 11:46 AM
#12
Racer
Thread Starter
3 owners, an accident bad enough to require towing and the last Lexus servicing according to CarFax occurred at around 18,000 miles. That and the fact the last owner flipped it after 9 months gives me pause. Have you gone to Lexus's owners site to see if there might be more records? Scarier still as Toyota servicing would show up.
It well might be that there are not many Lexus dealers in Kansas and the PO used other places. Also, it is kinda scary it shows being serviced at a Goodyear at 24,000 miles. Odd for a car that cost around $80,000 and was then only 3 years old.
Not trying to be negative and I am sure you are about burned out from searching for one. If nothing else, I would absolutely have a through PPI preformed at a Lexus dealer and at a collision center before booking airfare.
It well might be that there are not many Lexus dealers in Kansas and the PO used other places. Also, it is kinda scary it shows being serviced at a Goodyear at 24,000 miles. Odd for a car that cost around $80,000 and was then only 3 years old.
Not trying to be negative and I am sure you are about burned out from searching for one. If nothing else, I would absolutely have a through PPI preformed at a Lexus dealer and at a collision center before booking airfare.
I share Jungle's concerns. IMO, stay away from this vehicle. The 3rd owner drove it for 7000 miles and a few months before selling/trading. No record of service or any issues.
Fatherto1, you did due diligence on the SF car and learned details about the overheating episode, which was a deal breaker for me. The questions with this vehicle are worse. You have little information about the nature of the accident, perhaps you should find out what happened. The car has been driven about 50K miles since the accident, so maybe everything is OK. Still you don't know if there are hidden issues.
I know you are keen to get a vehicle with the features, color combo and price you want. And it may be reasonable to expect any vehicle in the 100K mile range to have issues. But this vehicle seems to have one too many, and I would stay away from it.
Fatherto1, you did due diligence on the SF car and learned details about the overheating episode, which was a deal breaker for me. The questions with this vehicle are worse. You have little information about the nature of the accident, perhaps you should find out what happened. The car has been driven about 50K miles since the accident, so maybe everything is OK. Still you don't know if there are hidden issues.
I know you are keen to get a vehicle with the features, color combo and price you want. And it may be reasonable to expect any vehicle in the 100K mile range to have issues. But this vehicle seems to have one too many, and I would stay away from it.
I passed on those cars you linked, Jungle, because experience has shown me to stay away from those small independent-type dealers that source most of their cars from auctions. I visited three such dealerships locally and each 460L I test drove did not sound or drive right despite clean histories (although one did have a hidden engine swap). I was attracted to them due to price but would rather stay with private sellers or reputable dealers that received the LS as a trade-in.
I did ask Laird Ford Topeka about the accident on the CarFax (Autocheck showed zero accidents). The dealer could not elaborate on the accident but suspected it was minor. I was concerned first due to the "tow" but the Lexus drivers record indicates the tow could have been due to the owner hitting a curb and damaged both rims on the driver's side. I have attached the Lexus driver's service history, which shows regular maintenance every 5k miles. Do you both still think we should stay away from this LS? Thank you!
01-07-17, 11:47 AM
#13
Pole Position
How about this one in Oceanside:
Good service history and does not have a black interior. Not AWD though.And here in your dream color in Utah with 45,000 miles and is AWD
There is no CarFax, but again if you go to the Lexus drivers website and enter the VIN, you can at least see how often it was serviced.
Good service history and does not have a black interior. Not AWD though.And here in your dream color in Utah with 45,000 miles and is AWD
There is no CarFax, but again if you go to the Lexus drivers website and enter the VIN, you can at least see how often it was serviced.
The Utah car doesn't have reclining seats. CarFax not available, but low mileage car, so maybe OK.
01-07-17, 11:54 AM
#14
Lead Lap
Nice history. Interesting it did not show up on CarFax. Surprising it needed an air shock replaced at 18,000 miles, but... As for the accident, I would have it inspected at an independent collision center.
Completely understand what you are saying about smaller indy car lots, but there are plenty of horror stories of used cars sold at mainline dealers too. This is why I went after a private party one owner.
I really did not want black myself. While it looks amazing IMO, I am going to have to spend much time on ye olde buffer once the weather warms up as black is cruel in regards to showing surface scratches. I prioritized single ownership, preferred options and service history over color. That and was lucky enough to get a Southern car below wholesale meeting this criteria. It will cost me around $600 to fix the dent on the trunk lid, but I ain't complaining!
Completely understand what you are saying about smaller indy car lots, but there are plenty of horror stories of used cars sold at mainline dealers too. This is why I went after a private party one owner.
I really did not want black myself. While it looks amazing IMO, I am going to have to spend much time on ye olde buffer once the weather warms up as black is cruel in regards to showing surface scratches. I prioritized single ownership, preferred options and service history over color. That and was lucky enough to get a Southern car below wholesale meeting this criteria. It will cost me around $600 to fix the dent on the trunk lid, but I ain't complaining!
01-07-17, 12:10 PM
#15
Lead Lap
According to the Lexus history, in 2015, one of the owners did curb the car necessitating towing. However, the accident that shows up on CarFax occurred in 2013 and is again why I would want a collision shop without a vested interest to look at it.
It appears the original owner purchased an extended service contract which is great. It is also good that actually both the RR and RL air struts were replaced, but it did happen almost 100,000 miles ago so does not hold as much sway.
It appears the original owner purchased an extended service contract which is great. It is also good that actually both the RR and RL air struts were replaced, but it did happen almost 100,000 miles ago so does not hold as much sway.