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Old 02-17-11, 11:48 AM   #1
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Smile Effect of LFA on brand image discussion

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Originally Posted by 1SICKLEX View Post
So her LFA is white, not yellow. lol, the jump to conclusions mat is in full effect.



I wouldn't expect any less. The European establishment has a new player from Japan and many will just refuse to give it its due and it being a Lexus means it lacks the badge for people. There is now another option, one that is rarer in many cases and the audacity of Lexus to ask for 375k for it.

Its no different then when Lexus shook up the entire motor industry with the LS in 1989. There wasn't any car fourms but it was the same rhetoric
-Japan can't make a luxury car
-its just some made up brand
-it can never beat or match Merceds/BMW
-European cars are just better

and well 20 years later Lexus is one of the greatest business success stories ever.

I've browsed quite a few forums and its easy to see who the real auto enthusiasts are who appreciate the LFA and what it brings to the table and has accomplished compared to those who beat it just because.

The NSX, Supra,GT-R got much of the same treatment and still does. Some people just will never respect the cars that Japan makes and Euro cars are supposedly the greatest gift to earth.
Agreed. It's why I came here in the first place. I'm not interested in the forums who march in lockstep and dislike anything Japanese or non-European in general. I do look for facts and I don't take this stuff personally. I am after all a multiple Lexus owner going back to the early 90s. How else will you find another side unless you come here?
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Old 02-17-11, 01:28 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by gengar View Post
What was posted was from my personal experience going through the application process, which is similar to the experiences reported by others on this board who went through the process (and received an allocation).

Most of the point of my post was actually what Lexus didn't say (or do).




I think those can go hand in hand, though. Many people simply can't stand the idea of the LFA... who knows exactly why that is, whether it is people who just can't get past their preconceptions and existing biases, or they feel their inferior quality lux brand is even more devalued because they can't just refer to Lexus as totally boring, or they just have their panties in a bunch because Lexus didn't approach them and their buddies to beg them to buy one. We know this is true because the IS-F got the same treatment when it came out and the LFA often gets sandbagged in magazine reviews (just look at, say, CAR, which relied entirely on daily driving characteristics in order to claim the SLS as a winner). But whatever the reason for this hate, the result is that Lexus and the LFA have become enemy #1 in their eyes and so they want to see Lexus fail in every way possible. A good starting point for them is to attack what they perceive to be Lexus' marketing and also hope that the LFA doesn't sell at all in the US.
Haha, you think people can't stand the idea of the LFA? The reason the argument gets posted over and over is because the entire basis for the opinion seems to escape you in the first place. Lexus had a flawed marketing strategy, regarding of the brilliance of the car, they simply made assumptions based on what they already knew, not what they didn't know and the LFA suffers as a result of that arrogance.

This has nothing to do with exotic owners. Don't you love marketers who blame the customer when they don't buy a product? The point was very simple and you get your undines in a bundle over it, but Lexus ignored the very people who buy a LOT of exotics and told that very group that they would pick them, not the other way around. Consequently that very group, a group Lexus would now LOVE to cultivate, has since formed their opinion and written the car off. Your attitude towards that group does nothing to turn it around. Yet, you blame them as haters? Seriously? You really think it's all that simple?

Wait until you own one! People dislike others for every reason in the book and it's amplified 10X when you own any expensive car. It makes no difference what it is. You will be called everything, not because it's a Lexus, but because it's not a Prius, or because you're flaunting wealth, or because it's an exotic, you name it, someone has a reason to be pissed off. This why no exotic owner in their right mind leaves their car unattended. Did you ever see the video of the drunk guy stomping on the Lamborghini?

If your skin is this thin now when people are raising questions, you're going to get very defensive just driving to and from your favorite restaurant. Exotics bring out all kinds of reactions in people and unless you develop thick enough skin to just roll with it, you're not going to be a very happy exotic owner.
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Old 02-17-11, 01:42 PM   #3
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You can make all of the excuse you want, but when people say things like "oh this LFA is going to get beaten the ***** out of by R8 V10", "A 599 GTB would kill this POS", "A GTR would eat this thing and cost 1/3rd of the price", "they should cancel this overpriced POS since no one will buy it". This is nothing, but hate. No other way to explain it. 99% of the criticim is all that. No one ever mentions LFA was "not marketed right or Lexus did not pick the owners wisely or Lexus is playing hardball". Only you keep repeating it.

I know lots of places on the internet where people were claiming when LFA was getting delivered to customers that it is all a hoax and all these people are Lexus employees faking customers just to give people the impression that they sold any LFA. These posts also linked to someone on this board [wink! wink!]. Who in the right mind ever says that?? Did anyone ever hear someone saying that about a Ferrari?? Never in my life.

Your obsession with how Lexus LFA was marketed is absurd. If you did not talk about it, there will be no one bringing it up.

It has nothing to do with marketing. You continue to just say the samething over and over again because you are really obsessed with how Lexus LFA took pride in the LFA and was brave enough to not chase people to buy their LFA and wanted it to be marketed in a way that it does end up in collectors garage gathering dust.

Rest is all a figment of your imagination.



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Originally Posted by TommyJames View Post
Haha, you think people can't stand the idea of the LFA? The reason the argument gets posted over and over is because the entire basis for the opinion seems to escape you in the first place. Lexus had a flawed marketing strategy, regarding of the brilliance of the car, they simply made assumptions based on what they already knew, not what they didn't know and the LFA suffers as a result of that arrogance.

This has nothing to do with exotic owners. Don't you love marketers who blame the customer when they don't buy a product? The point was very simple and you get your undines in a bundle over it, but Lexus ignored the very people who buy a LOT of exotics and told that very group that they would pick them, not the other way around. Consequently that very group, a group Lexus would now LOVE to cultivate, has since formed their opinion and written the car off. Your attitude towards that group does nothing to turn it around. Yet, you blame them as haters? Seriously? You really think it's all that simple?

Wait until you own one! People dislike others for every reason in the book and it's amplified 10X when you own any expensive car. It makes no difference what it is. You will be called everything, not because it's a Lexus, but because it's not a Prius, or because you're flaunting wealth, or because it's an exotic, you name it, someone has a reason to be pissed off. This why no exotic owner in their right mind leaves their car unattended. Did you ever see the video of the drunk guy stomping on the Lamborghini?

If your skin is this thin now when people are raising questions, you're going to get very defensive just driving to and from your favorite restaurant. Exotics bring out all kinds of reactions in people and unless you develop thick enough skin to just roll with it, you're not going to be a very happy exotic owner.
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Old 02-18-11, 06:26 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by TRDFantasy View Post
07grIS350,

I agree, in the sense that the actual number of LFAs sold in the US so far would shock both Ferrari and Lambo. It was also shock a lot of exotic "opinion leaders". In fact, I bet simply out of sheer arrogance, many of these "opinion leaders" would refuse to acknowledge the sales numbers .
You just don't get it. If Lexus sells all 170 LFAs it's good for the exotic market in general. It means a market exists. You so love to segregate the LFA as something magic and different. It's not. It's another brand of exotic, but it's still an exotic. If all 170 sell, it means the market is strong for a type of exotic. That actually pulls all exotics. Think of it as the stock market. When one stock is strong it tends to pull the others. When one drops, it also pulls the others down. Exotics go up and down much the same way. If they are dumped on the market after slow sales, it hurts EVERYONE who's got an exotic regardless of brand. You completely miss the very concept of an opinion leader and how that impacts brand value.
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Old 02-18-11, 06:33 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by 05RollaXRS View Post
Latest number that came from Lexus USA was "about 20 available still for sale is US" just about a month ago. The 60 is a much older figure.
Follow the Toyota corporate governance monthly sale reports for the most accurate data. They would be in serious trouble if they falsely reported that data so it's likely very accurate.

To sell their US allocation figure about seven per month on average. There were four in January so there should be eleven in February and so on. Even if you see a drop on or two months it may not mean anything because who knows the build and paint group cycle. It will take at least six months to know how they are really doing. By then there should a solid trend. Combine that with the lists posted here, there should be a fairly close match.

I'd not rely on the marketing department as they have not been accurate so far about anything.
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Old 02-18-11, 06:50 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by TommyJames View Post
You talk like exotic owners are a different species. They are not. They are guys that find value in spending $400k on a car. They are no different from any of you, other than can simply afford a more expensive car. Are you much different from someone who can afford a less expensive car than you? Probably not. Those that write big checks on cars are not a large group no matter how you want to characterize them and it has very little to do with brand itself. You so badly want to blame or segregate exotic owners as something detrimental to the Lexus brand and my argument is the exact opposite. You think theses guys each own just one car or one brand? Hardly! They typically go through lots of different cars like they go through shoes. Can you tell everything about someone from one pair of shoes?

I've been on a lot of different forums and believe me there are just as many brand snobs right here. Guys plunking down $400k look at all types of data and the reasons for loving one over are as varied as the personalities driving. This past week, I was given a private tour of a friends garage that nobody knows about. He's got an elevator in office for his cars and nobody knows they exist. He had 23 exotics! He never, ever drives any of them and prefers to just collect them. He's unlike anyone I've met yet.

Lexus went the stereotypical route and thought that by corralling some black card members they could somehow sell cars as if 'rich' automatically means they buy an exotic. I know some people who own nothing else but their beloved exotic. To them it's worth giving up everything else. THATS the group that buys exotics and they buy a lot of different brands. To somehow segregate them as something Lexus doesn't want defies all logic.
Ha, I knew you would repeat these same arguments. So in your opinion, Lexus would do as well, with the LFA, as Lambo with the SV in your circle of exotic owners/collectors?
Based on what you wrote, I actually think Lexus could do a better job at reaching out to you guys. However, there are always two sides to the story, and I have yet to hear the other one. Therefore I am only speculating in my posts.
You were surprise to meet a closet type car collector, perhaps there are a lot more of them around and many LFA's are going to them (that would explain why we don't hear from them on forums). Again, it is not what Lexus would want, but there isn't much they can do to stop it.

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Old 02-18-11, 06:57 PM   #7
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You just don't get it. If Lexus sells all 170 LFAs it's good for the exotic market in general. It means a market exists. You so love to segregate the LFA as something magic and different. It's not. It's another brand of exotic, but it's still an exotic. If all 170 sell, it means the market is strong for a type of exotic. That actually pulls all exotics. Think of it as the stock market. When one stock is strong it tends to pull the others. When one drops, it also pulls the others down. Exotics go up and down much the same way. If they are dumped on the market after slow sales, it hurts EVERYONE who's got an exotic regardless of brand. You completely miss the very concept of an opinion leader and how that impacts brand value.
Actually, I think you are the one not getting what we are saying, that Lexus has some how tapped into a new pool of buyers for its 400K cars.
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Old 02-18-11, 07:05 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by TommyJames View Post
Follow the Toyota corporate governance monthly sale reports for the most accurate data. They would be in serious trouble if they falsely reported that data so it's likely very accurate.

To sell their US allocation figure about seven per month on average. There were four in January so there should be eleven in February and so on. Even if you see a drop on or two months it may not mean anything because who knows the build and paint group cycle. It will take at least six months to know how they are really doing. By then there should a solid trend. Combine that with the lists posted here, there should be a fairly close match.

I'd not rely on the marketing department as they have not been accurate so far about anything.
January was the first month so out of the 6 cars arrived in the USA, only four got to their owners. We saw 3 arrived in the first half of Feb, and that probably mean they are on pace to get another 3-4 cars in the second half of the month. I think we should start seeing 6-7 cars showing as sold in the monthly reports beginning with February.
Given that USA got around 30% of the 500 cars, it also makes sense that they are getting 6 units which is also around 30% of the monthly production.
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Old 02-18-11, 07:37 PM   #9
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January was the first month so out of the 6 cars arrived in the USA, only four got to their owners. We saw 3 arrived in the first half of Feb, and that probably mean they are on pace to get another 3-4 cars in the second half of the month. I think we should start seeing 6-7 cars showing as sold in the monthly reports beginning with February.
Given that USA got around 30% of the 500 cars, it also makes sense that they are getting 6 units which is also around 30% of the monthly production.
Either way it's going to bounce around but it will be the most accurate data. While it won't tell what's in the pipeline, it will give that important data point of how many exist in the US. Values swing widely based on not just total number, but also with color. A rare popular color can fetch a huge sum versus a dud. Lamborghini built too many white SVs and they are getting hurt the most while almost all of the single color cars are going for over sticker.
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Old 02-18-11, 07:47 PM   #10
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Ha, I knew you would repeat these same arguments. So in your opion, Lexus would do as well, with the LFA, as Lambo with the SV in your circle of exotic owners/collectors?
Based on what you wrote, I actually think Lexus could do a better job at reaching out to you guys. However, there are always two sides to the story, and I have yet to hear the other one. Therefore I am only speculating in my posts.
You were surprise to meet a closet type car collector, perhaps there are a lot more of them around and many LFA's are going to them (that would explain why we don't hear from them on forums). Again, it is not what Lexus would want, but there isn't much they can do to stop it.
Don't know as most have never seen an LFA in person yet, at least up here and in California it's been mostly static displays. There were 42 SVs sold in the US in 2010, but only 26 remain. The others have been bought up by other countries. That may happen with the LFA too. I only pay attention to the US market.

This closet type collector bought almost the entire collection in one shot except for just a very few cars. It's a rare guy who wants to keep it as private as this guy does. Normally it would be tough to move that many cars of that kind of value in secret but he owns a few dealerships so they can go through his place, have photos taken and still not know the actual owner. Even he was compelled to show off his collection to me, so it's not completely secret. I did see a few cars I didn't know existed which was cool.
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Old 02-18-11, 08:20 PM   #11
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I'm still stuck on the thought that some here think that other exotic owners WANT the LFA to fail. I'm not sure I get that. I can't begin to understand why anyone would want any car company to fail. Most exotic guys are old enough to remember how Lexus pulled up the standards of the other luxury brands in the 80s. Even if you were a die-hard BMW guy, you benefited because of the existence of Lexus. What benefit is there to anyone if the LFA fails? Imagine how it would hurt the values of all exotics if Lexus dumped 100+ unsold cars on the market? That would pull down the prices of everything. How would that be a good thing? Let's assume the other direction, and Lexus is super-successful with the LFA and outsell the new LP700 four to one, how does this harm Lamborghini? You think they would dump cars? Assume sales at Lamborghini are slow because the LFA is a hot seller. You don't think Lamborghini wouldn't answer the call? They already have with the LP700. In fact, I'm betting that the LP700 has many features in it because the LFA exists. So, again, why would the LFA be a bad thing to anyone? You think there will be LFA gangs roaming the streets?

Our car show season begins tomorrow. We will see exotics from all ages and values. Some cars coming tomorrow are worth millions. You think we'd only want to see one brand? The LFA would be just as welcome as any other car.

A lot of people have been critical but that's a far cry from a "hater" or someone who wishes the brand would die. I'm just having trouble with that logic.
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Old 02-18-11, 11:16 PM   #12
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I don't know why you guys are arguing with Tommy. He is right on so many fronts. Sure the LFA probably has pulled in sales from people that would not normally buy an exotic .I was and am not in the market for an exotic, the LFA is the only exotic I would consider owning right now due to my kids still being young, so I just don't have the time to drive it. The LFA offers something different over here in Japan and I don't see the price going down for a used one.

I suggest to take a step back and look at the whole picture, b/c that is what I feel Tommy has being trying to get across with not much luck.

Tommy, I think that this is all new ground for Lexus purists, hense the defensive attitude. This is perfectly understandable, so I hope you don't take it personal.

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Old 02-18-11, 11:28 PM   #13
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This brings up the question that I have been pondering for the last few days. Are there any confirmed numbers yet for LFA sales? I have seen a few numbers thrown around in a couple of these threads stating there are still quite a few available.
Well a sale can't be confirmed until the sale actually takes place, which in the case of the LFA is at delivery. For example, my LFA isn't technically sold yet and I'm under no obligation to go through with my purchase (although I'll certainly be out my $60k in deposits so far). So until the LFAs actually get delivered, we won't know the real sales numbers. The easiest way is just to keep track in the monthly sales reports.
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Old 02-19-11, 02:33 AM   #14
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You talk like exotic owners are a different species. They are not. They are guys that find value in spending $400k on a car. They are no different from any of you, other than can simply afford a more expensive car. Are you much different from someone who can afford a less expensive car than you? Probably not. Those that write big checks on cars are not a large group no matter how you want to characterize them and it has very little to do with brand itself. You so badly want to blame or segregate exotic owners as something detrimental to the Lexus brand and my argument is the exact opposite. You think theses guys each own just one car or one brand? Hardly! They typically go through lots of different cars like they go through shoes. Can you tell everything about someone from one pair of shoes?

I've been on a lot of different forums and believe me there are just as many brand snobs right here. Guys plunking down $400k look at all types of data and the reasons for loving one over are as varied as the personalities driving. This past week, I was given a private tour of a friends garage that nobody knows about. He's got an elevator in office for his cars and nobody knows they exist. He had 23 exotics! He never, ever drives any of them and prefers to just collect them. He's unlike anyone I've met yet.

Lexus went the stereotypical route and thought that by corralling some black card members they could somehow sell cars as if 'rich' automatically means they buy an exotic. I know some people who own nothing else but their beloved exotic. To them it's worth giving up everything else. THATS the group that buys exotics and they buy a lot of different brands. To somehow segregate them as something Lexus doesn't want defies all logic.
This summed up is an argument you've posted several times before. Also that last paragraph seems very offensive and makes it seem like "that" exotic group is full of arrogant buyers. Who are you to say whether Lexus went the "stereotypical" route or not? Who are you to say which group of people or what type of people are "true" exotic buyers?

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Originally Posted by TommyJames View Post
You just don't get it. If Lexus sells all 170 LFAs it's good for the exotic market in general. It means a market exists. You so love to segregate the LFA as something magic and different. It's not. It's another brand of exotic, but it's still an exotic. If all 170 sell, it means the market is strong for a type of exotic. That actually pulls all exotics. Think of it as the stock market. When one stock is strong it tends to pull the others. When one drops, it also pulls the others down. Exotics go up and down much the same way. If they are dumped on the market after slow sales, it hurts EVERYONE who's got an exotic regardless of brand. You completely miss the very concept of an opinion leader and how that impacts brand value.
You're contradicting your own previous arguments.

I'm amazed actually. You've argued on the forums consistently here that currently the US market for exotics is weak. This is a fact that you've argued this point. You've also argued you strongly believe the US market isn't strong enough for Lexus to sell roughly 170 LFAs here. You've (unfairly) criticized Lexus for overestimating US demand, and criticized them for low US LFA sales, despite having no concrete data to prove your arguments.

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I'm still stuck on the thought that some here think that other exotic owners WANT the LFA to fail. I'm not sure I get that. I can't begin to understand why anyone would want any car company to fail. Most exotic guys are old enough to remember how Lexus pulled up the standards of the other luxury brands in the 80s. Even if you were a die-hard BMW guy, you benefited because of the existence of Lexus. What benefit is there to anyone if the LFA fails? Imagine how it would hurt the values of all exotics if Lexus dumped 100+ unsold cars on the market? That would pull down the prices of everything. How would that be a good thing? Let's assume the other direction, and Lexus is super-successful with the LFA and outsell the new LP700 four to one, how does this harm Lamborghini? You think they would dump cars? Assume sales at Lamborghini are slow because the LFA is a hot seller. You don't think Lamborghini wouldn't answer the call? They already have with the LP700. In fact, I'm betting that the LP700 has many features in it because the LFA exists. So, again, why would the LFA be a bad thing to anyone? You think there will be LFA gangs roaming the streets?

Our car show season begins tomorrow. We will see exotics from all ages and values. Some cars coming tomorrow are worth millions. You think we'd only want to see one brand? The LFA would be just as welcome as any other car.

A lot of people have been critical but that's a far cry from a "hater" or someone who wishes the brand would die. I'm just having trouble with that logic.
What benefit is there for you to consistently criticize Lexus and the LFA in various ways? You've consistently criticized the LFA and Lexus for about a year now, despite not having concrete data for your arguments.

What motives possess you to continue to repeat the same arguments over and over and over for a year?
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Old 02-19-11, 06:52 AM   #15
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I don't know why you guys are arguing with Tommy. He is right on so many fronts. Sure the LFA probably has pulled in sales from people that would not normally buy an exotic .I was and am not in the market for an exotic, the LFA is the only exotic I would consider owning right now due to my kids still being young, so I just don't have the time to drive it. The LFA offers something different over here in Japan and I don't see the price going down for a used one.

I suggest to take a step back and look at the whole picture, b/c that is what I feel Tommy has being trying to get across with not much luck.

Tommy, I think that this is all new ground for Lexus purists, hense the defensive attitude. This is perfectly understandable, so I hope you don't take it personal.

Cheers
It's hard to resist giving Tommy a hard time here, especially when he insinuated that we drank too much Lexus's Kool aid. He does bring up valid points and views. However, up until the last few days, from my recollection that his problematic views are basically:
1- Lexus did not market the LFA using the traditional exotic makersí approach. therefore itís not possible for them to make any meaningful sales number. Therefore someone is not telling the truth.
2- There are only so many $400K car buyers in the USA, and he thinks the majority of them are in his exotics owning circles. As he did not see anyone there looking at LFA, he again concluded that someone at Lexus is not telling the truth about the sales figure.
3- Heís criticised Lexusís application process without even trying to see the truth.
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