Sound System - amp/sub/speakers
10-18-02, 06:34 AM
#34
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Lex Luther;
Fully agree on the requirement for rear speakers and centre channels in DSP & A/V modes, home cinema is fine I just dont agree with it in the car, at the speeds I drive at there is no way I am going to have A/V running.
At home it's Marantz 5.1 surround with 300wRMS bass unit and aiming for monoblock amps, in the car I am more of a hi-fi purist I just want to hear decent quality reproduction but fairly loud, hence using "rear fill" to bolster the weak front end.
Home stereo uses the rear reflection to provide some "rear fill", this is why the amount and density of carpet and soft furnishings in a room play a big part in hi-fi listening tests, as it is damn near impossible to get front/rear reflection in the car we need to add rear fill which is why some people say they need something coming from behind them but must not fall into the trap of killing the frontal stereo image by overpowering the rears from mid-range upwards.
Fully agree on the requirement for rear speakers and centre channels in DSP & A/V modes, home cinema is fine I just dont agree with it in the car, at the speeds I drive at there is no way I am going to have A/V running.
At home it's Marantz 5.1 surround with 300wRMS bass unit and aiming for monoblock amps, in the car I am more of a hi-fi purist I just want to hear decent quality reproduction but fairly loud, hence using "rear fill" to bolster the weak front end.
Home stereo uses the rear reflection to provide some "rear fill", this is why the amount and density of carpet and soft furnishings in a room play a big part in hi-fi listening tests, as it is damn near impossible to get front/rear reflection in the car we need to add rear fill which is why some people say they need something coming from behind them but must not fall into the trap of killing the frontal stereo image by overpowering the rears from mid-range upwards.
10-18-02, 12:46 PM
#36
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I kept on thinking that in my head but for some reason I typed in sound. 
Most likely because I hadn't slept the night before so I was a little tired.
Also my girlfriends dad is an audiophile, he use to be big into car audio but he told me the reason why he stopped was that he was too picky and that there are too many factors(road noise, having windows open, etc) with a car to create the sound that you want. He is a musician too and he has a very good "music" ear.
Most likely because I hadn't slept the night before so I was a little tired. Also my girlfriends dad is an audiophile, he use to be big into car audio but he told me the reason why he stopped was that he was too picky and that there are too many factors(road noise, having windows open, etc) with a car to create the sound that you want. He is a musician too and he has a very good "music" ear.
Originally posted by Lex Luthor
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10-19-02, 11:18 AM
#37
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The car is a very hostile environment for sound quality, from sound absorbing soft trim to mucho glass reflection, the first step in decent car hi-fi is sound proofing - $100 spent on that can equal £1000 spent on speakers or amps.
11-15-02, 02:08 PM
#38
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
Okay. Here are the components I'm finally getting.
Boston Pro Series 6.5 Component Speakers
JL 300/4 Amp
JL 10IB4
Here's my question, for the Boston Pro's. I have two choices. First is the 2 way speakers at about $450. 2nd is the 3 way speakers at $750 - $300!!! difference. Can someone please tell me which I should get and why?
Can I specify what wires is used in the install when done by a shop?
Finally, any help with stores by which I can get this install done at? I stopped by a local myer-emco and I see that they do alota exotic/luxury cars. I see pix of their install and if people trust their ferrari's with them, why not me?
I live in northern VA area. Please help if you have any recommendations.
Boston Pro Series 6.5 Component Speakers
JL 300/4 Amp
JL 10IB4
Here's my question, for the Boston Pro's. I have two choices. First is the 2 way speakers at about $450. 2nd is the 3 way speakers at $750 - $300!!! difference. Can someone please tell me which I should get and why?
Can I specify what wires is used in the install when done by a shop?
Finally, any help with stores by which I can get this install done at? I stopped by a local myer-emco and I see that they do alota exotic/luxury cars. I see pix of their install and if people trust their ferrari's with them, why not me?
I live in northern VA area. Please help if you have any recommendations.
11-15-02, 04:26 PM
#39
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3 ways are 3 speakers being the tweeter, 4" and 6.5".
2 way 6.5s are omitting the 4" midrange
2 ways are plenty but I would suggest the 5.5s over the 6.5s because of easier fit and better coverage of the midrange area. A 6" speaker is closer to a midbass woofer than a midrange/midbass
Lastly, on the install part. I have no idea in your area. However, by general knowledge around the nation, locally owned shops are better than national chains. I would tend to say that a guy with a CLEAN shop will do a CLEAN install. Dirty shops cut corners. So go look at the shop, check for how orderly everything looks in the INSTALL BAY, not the showroom, and then ask a lot of questions.
Speaker install front doors ~$100
With new speaker wire run to the doors ~$150
Sub install ~$100
Amp Install w/wires ~$125
Total install ~$300-$450
To prepare for the quote, bring wiring schematic of the pin-outs on the stock amp (assume you are using oem deck), know where you want the amp mounted, and point them to where you would like to run the 12v+ cable thru the firewall. I would suggest the unused grommet in the drivers side near the brake booster.
Good luck,
MW
2 way 6.5s are omitting the 4" midrange
2 ways are plenty but I would suggest the 5.5s over the 6.5s because of easier fit and better coverage of the midrange area. A 6" speaker is closer to a midbass woofer than a midrange/midbass
Lastly, on the install part. I have no idea in your area. However, by general knowledge around the nation, locally owned shops are better than national chains. I would tend to say that a guy with a CLEAN shop will do a CLEAN install. Dirty shops cut corners. So go look at the shop, check for how orderly everything looks in the INSTALL BAY, not the showroom, and then ask a lot of questions.
Speaker install front doors ~$100
With new speaker wire run to the doors ~$150
Sub install ~$100
Amp Install w/wires ~$125
Total install ~$300-$450
To prepare for the quote, bring wiring schematic of the pin-outs on the stock amp (assume you are using oem deck), know where you want the amp mounted, and point them to where you would like to run the 12v+ cable thru the firewall. I would suggest the unused grommet in the drivers side near the brake booster.
Good luck,
MW
11-26-02, 03:35 AM
#40
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
MW,
Thanks for your advice, it really gave me a good idea when I went to talk to the local installers. I went to two good ones and here's how it went.
The first one is a local shop that specializes in high end cars. Their reputation is great, recognized as the best one in this area. However, the prices seems a bit high: $1200 for install-only on these components.
$600 of it is for the custom kick panel since I have the Boston 6.5 3 ways (no place to put the 4 mid except to customize the kick panel).
A 2nd shop is national chain but their installers had good reputation here. They also backed this with pretty much the same $500-600 range for the custom kicks alone. My only solution is to sell the Boston 6.5 3 way and go with 5.25 2 way (5's a bit easier to install).
Overall, I'm gonna go with the 2nd installer since their price is $1000 and it includes the Boston 2 way speaker ($400) + the 10IB4 subs ($130). The labor priced is only $255: $35 subs, $120 components, $adaptor, $75 amp 4 channel assuming I'm going with the 2 way Boston 5.25's.
One thing I'm a bit skeptical is the installation accessories. It seems to be about $190-200. Here's what the 2nd installer wrote down for that:
$75 Line Level Adapter
$50 Monster Micro XLN SM
$65 Monster BP500
What are those 3 things and can I buy them elsewhere for cheaper? If this is the norm that I guess that's cool.
Thanks for your advice, it really gave me a good idea when I went to talk to the local installers. I went to two good ones and here's how it went.
The first one is a local shop that specializes in high end cars. Their reputation is great, recognized as the best one in this area. However, the prices seems a bit high: $1200 for install-only on these components.
$600 of it is for the custom kick panel since I have the Boston 6.5 3 ways (no place to put the 4 mid except to customize the kick panel).
A 2nd shop is national chain but their installers had good reputation here. They also backed this with pretty much the same $500-600 range for the custom kicks alone. My only solution is to sell the Boston 6.5 3 way and go with 5.25 2 way (5's a bit easier to install).
Overall, I'm gonna go with the 2nd installer since their price is $1000 and it includes the Boston 2 way speaker ($400) + the 10IB4 subs ($130). The labor priced is only $255: $35 subs, $120 components, $adaptor, $75 amp 4 channel assuming I'm going with the 2 way Boston 5.25's.
One thing I'm a bit skeptical is the installation accessories. It seems to be about $190-200. Here's what the 2nd installer wrote down for that:
$75 Line Level Adapter
$50 Monster Micro XLN SM
$65 Monster BP500
What are those 3 things and can I buy them elsewhere for cheaper? If this is the norm that I guess that's cool.
Last edited by Legends6spd; 11-26-02 at 03:37 AM.
11-26-02, 03:43 AM
#41
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Legend,
You are cracking me up.
Some people listen and others just hear. I told you a couple times that the 5" set was the way to go. I also made it very clear that you do not need line-level converters and NOT to use a national chain store.
You will learn after you get screwed a few times. I have been doing this for over a decade and have NEVER seen a national chain do ANYTHING the right way. I have friends that work at the 4 largest chains in the nation and ALL of them say that they just hack up cars and rig the thing together. On the side they all do better work, but never on the job no matter WHAT. They need to do things the quick and easy ....not the quality and effort.
Boston 5.5s or even just get the XR525 JL Audio speakers. Save the money. Then spend the money going to the local shop. If you want me to give them a ring I will. The install will look killer if they get the right idea.
MW
You are cracking me up.
Some people listen and others just hear. I told you a couple times that the 5" set was the way to go. I also made it very clear that you do not need line-level converters and NOT to use a national chain store.
You will learn after you get screwed a few times. I have been doing this for over a decade and have NEVER seen a national chain do ANYTHING the right way. I have friends that work at the 4 largest chains in the nation and ALL of them say that they just hack up cars and rig the thing together. On the side they all do better work, but never on the job no matter WHAT. They need to do things the quick and easy ....not the quality and effort.
Boston 5.5s or even just get the XR525 JL Audio speakers. Save the money. Then spend the money going to the local shop. If you want me to give them a ring I will. The install will look killer if they get the right idea.
MW
11-26-02, 04:17 AM
#42
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
sorry, i dont recall you tellin me about the level line converter. I really didnt know about these things until the start of this thread pretty much. alot of it didnt make sense till I've gone thru the process of finding out just what i need. Plz give me a quick explaination of what the line coverter do and why i don't need it.
as for the 5" speakers, I know what ya told me, it's just that i was able to get the 6.5 really easily and cheaply that I couldn't pass it up. I can always sell it for more that I paid and get the 5" so that's not a biggie.
I don't mind doing a quality install, but you also told me it'd be $300-400 so don't you think the $1200 price is outrageous?
Here's their quote (remember this is all for labor only):
Component Installation: $120
Custom Kicks: $500
Custom Door Plates: $60
Amplifier: $90
Sub $60
-------install accessories-------
MTX AGU Fuse Holder $20
17 Lightning Red 4 Gauge at 2.50 each = $45.50
4 pack 5 gauge rings $10
2 5m Zero noise 2 Interconnect at $35 each = $70
Line Out Converter $120
that comes to a total of $1100
granted, if I do the 5" speakers i can probably take off the $500 so that leaves about $600 for the install?
Do you recommend that I go ahead with this? This install guy really took the time to explain everything to me and there's no doubt in my mind that he'd do a good job (several ppl higly recommended him). He said to leave the car with him for 2-3 days to be safe. Whereas the Myer-Emco installer said 1 day is all he took so I think you are definitely right about that.
$600 is a bit higher than I expected but I'll bite the bullet if you think that's decent. Are any of the other install accessories necessary? Can I save on any of that by buyin it off Ebay? Since I've never installed anything myself, I've no clue what each of those things are suppose to do.
as for the 5" speakers, I know what ya told me, it's just that i was able to get the 6.5 really easily and cheaply that I couldn't pass it up. I can always sell it for more that I paid and get the 5" so that's not a biggie.
I don't mind doing a quality install, but you also told me it'd be $300-400 so don't you think the $1200 price is outrageous?
Here's their quote (remember this is all for labor only):
Component Installation: $120
Custom Kicks: $500
Custom Door Plates: $60
Amplifier: $90
Sub $60
-------install accessories-------
MTX AGU Fuse Holder $20
17 Lightning Red 4 Gauge at 2.50 each = $45.50
4 pack 5 gauge rings $10
2 5m Zero noise 2 Interconnect at $35 each = $70
Line Out Converter $120
that comes to a total of $1100
granted, if I do the 5" speakers i can probably take off the $500 so that leaves about $600 for the install?
Do you recommend that I go ahead with this? This install guy really took the time to explain everything to me and there's no doubt in my mind that he'd do a good job (several ppl higly recommended him). He said to leave the car with him for 2-3 days to be safe. Whereas the Myer-Emco installer said 1 day is all he took so I think you are definitely right about that.
$600 is a bit higher than I expected but I'll bite the bullet if you think that's decent. Are any of the other install accessories necessary? Can I save on any of that by buyin it off Ebay? Since I've never installed anything myself, I've no clue what each of those things are suppose to do.
Last edited by Legends6spd; 11-26-02 at 04:31 AM.
11-26-02, 12:32 PM
#43
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Legend,
$600 is a tad high....I think I said $300-400labor + wires... which is about $600. That is a fair price. However, you don't need the line converter or the overpriced $35 Patch Cables (Interconnects). So that comes down to exactly what I told you it would $330 labor + $75 wire.
Overall, you are better off going to a custom local shop that cares. Take a look at their shop and if it looks neat and tidy then they will do a quality job. If it is a mess, your car will be a mess too.
When utilizing the factory stereo in the SC it is much CLEANER to just utilize the low level inputs from the factory stereo. Two reasons for that. First, they are in the trunk already so that you do not have to run RCA cables from head to toe. Second, they do not gain the additional distortion from the factory amplifier. Two get the schematics, just search around. Again, I will call the guys at your local shop and explain for you. No problem. A line level converter takes a speaker level output and down grades it to a line level. So it does the opposite of what an amplifier does. Most installers take that route to get a set of RCA inputs for your amplifier right off of your back speakers. BAD IDEA. You lose your fader, and you lose quality. The funny thing about all this is that the JLAudio amplifier has a line level converter built right in.
So.... Your stereo creates the sound....the amplifier makes it louder....the cheesey line level converter drops it back down.... your new amplifier is AGAIN making it louder....and finally you here it...... See the problem?
MW
$600 is a tad high....I think I said $300-400labor + wires... which is about $600. That is a fair price. However, you don't need the line converter or the overpriced $35 Patch Cables (Interconnects). So that comes down to exactly what I told you it would $330 labor + $75 wire.
Overall, you are better off going to a custom local shop that cares. Take a look at their shop and if it looks neat and tidy then they will do a quality job. If it is a mess, your car will be a mess too.
When utilizing the factory stereo in the SC it is much CLEANER to just utilize the low level inputs from the factory stereo. Two reasons for that. First, they are in the trunk already so that you do not have to run RCA cables from head to toe. Second, they do not gain the additional distortion from the factory amplifier. Two get the schematics, just search around. Again, I will call the guys at your local shop and explain for you. No problem. A line level converter takes a speaker level output and down grades it to a line level. So it does the opposite of what an amplifier does. Most installers take that route to get a set of RCA inputs for your amplifier right off of your back speakers. BAD IDEA. You lose your fader, and you lose quality. The funny thing about all this is that the JLAudio amplifier has a line level converter built right in.
So.... Your stereo creates the sound....the amplifier makes it louder....the cheesey line level converter drops it back down.... your new amplifier is AGAIN making it louder....and finally you here it...... See the problem?
MW
11-26-02, 12:53 PM
#44
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
MW,
You are a lifesaver. I feel like I need to pay your for your advice. I'll tell ya what. Whateva $ I save from that $600, I'll split it with ya
I have just one last question. Your advice is to get the XR525 speakers, what is the difference between the XR525-CXi and the CSi. Which one do you recommend getting?
I see two on Ebay and I'm not sure the price difference between the two: 1941323918, 1941089982.
Thanks again for your help.
You are a lifesaver. I feel like I need to pay your for your advice. I'll tell ya what. Whateva $ I save from that $600, I'll split it with ya
I have just one last question. Your advice is to get the XR525 speakers, what is the difference between the XR525-CXi and the CSi. Which one do you recommend getting?
I see two on Ebay and I'm not sure the price difference between the two: 1941323918, 1941089982.
Thanks again for your help.
02-05-03, 10:47 AM
#45
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
After a month's vacation, I FINALLY got my car into a shop for the sub/speaker/amp installation.
So far, they are running into 2 problems. The first is that no sound is coming from the left side and there's a humming noise. There's also noise whenever say windshield wiper was used, lights turn on ..etc They are still workin on this.
2nd problem is the fit with 10ib4. The magnet is hitting the gas tank. I know a custom spacer is needed, but they said that the sub is sticking out far too much from the rear deck. What can be done? I did a search and a lex400sc post claimed that a 3/4 MDF need to be stacked? Does that mean it's just raised way out and sticks out? How can the original grill fit?
Only solution so far being proposed is to build an enclosure (custom box) in the back which means I'm losing trunk space and that the stock sub location will be empty. This is gonna be at most $200 more which is totally fine with me but I really thought the 10Ib4 could be fitted with a lil customization.
MW, help me if you can!
So far, they are running into 2 problems. The first is that no sound is coming from the left side and there's a humming noise. There's also noise whenever say windshield wiper was used, lights turn on ..etc They are still workin on this.
2nd problem is the fit with 10ib4. The magnet is hitting the gas tank. I know a custom spacer is needed, but they said that the sub is sticking out far too much from the rear deck. What can be done? I did a search and a lex400sc post claimed that a 3/4 MDF need to be stacked? Does that mean it's just raised way out and sticks out? How can the original grill fit?
Only solution so far being proposed is to build an enclosure (custom box) in the back which means I'm losing trunk space and that the stock sub location will be empty. This is gonna be at most $200 more which is totally fine with me but I really thought the 10Ib4 could be fitted with a lil customization.
MW, help me if you can!