Sound System - amp/sub/speakers
10-09-02, 12:50 PM
#16
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NAZTY97,
I see what you are saying about the rears... Some like that rear fill and DSP. However, Legend is NOT going to use DSP with the factory headunit, is not going to change the sub mounting location as he stated, and is not going to have an extraordinary amount of bass to drown out the fronts. I usually tell clients that I rarely go to a concert and sit backwards, so why would I need rear speakers. I am kind of a purist in that sense. I like front staging and a minimal number of speakers. 5 maybe 6 is the most. 2 tweeters, two mid-range/mid bass and one or two subs.
To boot, I rarely ever have anyone in the backseat of my SC...I am too tall to stuff someone behind the driver side.
In setting up 4 door cars, I will usually mount rear door speakers with fiberglass pods to aim back toward the rear passengers.
MW
I see what you are saying about the rears... Some like that rear fill and DSP. However, Legend is NOT going to use DSP with the factory headunit, is not going to change the sub mounting location as he stated, and is not going to have an extraordinary amount of bass to drown out the fronts. I usually tell clients that I rarely go to a concert and sit backwards, so why would I need rear speakers. I am kind of a purist in that sense. I like front staging and a minimal number of speakers. 5 maybe 6 is the most. 2 tweeters, two mid-range/mid bass and one or two subs.
To boot, I rarely ever have anyone in the backseat of my SC...I am too tall to stuff someone behind the driver side.
In setting up 4 door cars, I will usually mount rear door speakers with fiberglass pods to aim back toward the rear passengers.
MW
10-16-02, 02:44 PM
#17
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
thanks again for your insight pcmw.
i've had a flat tire recently and has not been able to drive my SC to my local shop for an estimate on an install.
I did ask around however about rear fill and I guess none of my friends are true audiophiles cuz they simply don't believe in what I was tellin them.
they are like, NO REAR SPEAKERS???! they also said that the rear is mid-range and that they see no reason why you shouldn't have them. Aren't they correct that you'd need midrange?
but anyways. here's a couple more questions:
1. What is the stock AMP specs (output..etc) for a pioneer premium system ('97)? What is the specs for the subwoofer and the speakers?
2. Does anyone know because I did a search and the keyword's too vague.
is it possible to get two nice front speakers and just leave the rear speakers stock (or is this ludicrious?).
3. Finally, mjames08, how much better is your sound than the stock system? on a scale of 1 to 10 and the stock system is a 3, what # would you rate your new system ?
i've had a flat tire recently and has not been able to drive my SC to my local shop for an estimate on an install.
I did ask around however about rear fill and I guess none of my friends are true audiophiles cuz they simply don't believe in what I was tellin them.
they are like, NO REAR SPEAKERS???! they also said that the rear is mid-range and that they see no reason why you shouldn't have them. Aren't they correct that you'd need midrange?
but anyways. here's a couple more questions:
1. What is the stock AMP specs (output..etc) for a pioneer premium system ('97)? What is the specs for the subwoofer and the speakers?
2. Does anyone know because I did a search and the keyword's too vague.
is it possible to get two nice front speakers and just leave the rear speakers stock (or is this ludicrious?).
3. Finally, mjames08, how much better is your sound than the stock system? on a scale of 1 to 10 and the stock system is a 3, what # would you rate your new system ?
Last edited by Legends6spd; 10-16-02 at 05:26 PM.
10-16-02, 03:33 PM
#18
Lead Lap
I'd give a stock system a 3.5, not a 3
and for rating my aftermarket system...9, cuz there are people who've gone way beyond mine ($10K systems) and they get the 10 and 11 score. :eek:
10-16-02, 06:45 PM
#20
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Legend,
Go to this thread for your answer to question 1:
Previous Thread with Factory Specs
Go to the post from Lance dated 11-7-01.
It seems you asked the question in that thread too.
I'm glad to be able to provide an answer around here.
Go to this thread for your answer to question 1:
Previous Thread with Factory Specs
Go to the post from Lance dated 11-7-01.
It seems you asked the question in that thread too.
I'm glad to be able to provide an answer around here.
10-16-02, 11:00 PM
#21
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Legend,
If the door speakers are 4" and the rears are 4". Why do you ask "Aren't they correct that you'd need midrange?"
What the hay are the DOOR speakers then? They are WOOFERS.
To each their own. If you want to waste an extra $400 installing rear speakers that get washed out and are aimed at the back of your skull. Go for it. I was just trying to fit your specs.
Consider this...other than for watching movies (which your stock system won't accomplish) I have never been to a concert or friends house where he/she has mounted speakers BEHIND my head. I know that you are going to say, all cars come with them. However, you are REPLACING that system for the very same reason...it sucks. The last time I installed rear speakers in a TWO door vehicle the guy came back after a week and wanted them tuned WAY down to almost 20% of the volume of the fronts.
MW
If the door speakers are 4" and the rears are 4". Why do you ask "Aren't they correct that you'd need midrange?"
What the hay are the DOOR speakers then? They are WOOFERS.
To each their own. If you want to waste an extra $400 installing rear speakers that get washed out and are aimed at the back of your skull. Go for it. I was just trying to fit your specs.
Consider this...other than for watching movies (which your stock system won't accomplish) I have never been to a concert or friends house where he/she has mounted speakers BEHIND my head. I know that you are going to say, all cars come with them. However, you are REPLACING that system for the very same reason...it sucks. The last time I installed rear speakers in a TWO door vehicle the guy came back after a week and wanted them tuned WAY down to almost 20% of the volume of the fronts.
MW
10-16-02, 11:20 PM
#22
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MW,
You obviously know way more about this than I do. I never would have considered your approach re front vs rear speakers. I am thinking that most people prefer strong rear speakers because that's where the room is to put them, and also there is a more direct path to the ears. A lot of front speakers end up covered by someone's knee, etc. But your points are very persuasive, especially if the open air subwoofer is going to defeat the other rears if they try to overcome it.
You obviously know way more about this than I do. I never would have considered your approach re front vs rear speakers. I am thinking that most people prefer strong rear speakers because that's where the room is to put them, and also there is a more direct path to the ears. A lot of front speakers end up covered by someone's knee, etc. But your points are very persuasive, especially if the open air subwoofer is going to defeat the other rears if they try to overcome it.
10-16-02, 11:27 PM
#23
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Snowman,
Thanks. I think most people will be surprised by mounting up a pair of 5 or 6" speakers in the door cavity. The preformed cavities are excellent. Also.. the rears have to bounce of glass to get to your ears. Not a good chance it will hold much volume also being they are not enclosed correctly on the back side.
MW
Thanks. I think most people will be surprised by mounting up a pair of 5 or 6" speakers in the door cavity. The preformed cavities are excellent. Also.. the rears have to bounce of glass to get to your ears. Not a good chance it will hold much volume also being they are not enclosed correctly on the back side.
MW
10-16-02, 11:48 PM
#24
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pcmw;
I think you are being a bit hard on Legends6spd, in an ideal world highs, mids, lows would all be equidistant in front of the driver, not easy to acheive in a car specially the SC/Soarer which means we have to look at "rear fill" to assist.
The inclusion of rear fill is totally crazy, to have rear sounds killing the frontal staging BUT, (there's always a BUT), in the front of the car you are limited as to the size/power you can drive the front stage. Take the factory setup of 1" tweeter, 4" mids, placed in a specifically designed bookshelf speaker casing they would do an adaquate job of providing a small room with stereo sound, place the same speakers in the musically hostile environment of a car and they dont fare as well, stick in an RTA and checkout the gaps across the frequency range and you will soon see why they dont compare.
The lack of frequencies in the front end need to be bolstered, the easiest way to do this from the manufacturers point of view is to add speakers in the rear deck, running full range these tend to wash-out the front stage, hey they dont give a **** and most drivers wont even notice.
What is missing from the front stage, low bass is the most obvious, stick a 10" sub on the rear deck and it fits in comfortably with the front stage as bass is not very directional unlike the tweeters which are.
The 4" front speakers will also lack mid-bass, we can get that from the the rear deck, add two 6" bass drivers but tailor them to only work in the area between the sub and the front mid-range, if you cap the frequency of the rear mid-bass they will not be so directional as to drag the the listener away from the front stage.
Mid-range should not be a problem as decent front speakers should cope, the highs are catered for by the highly directional tweeters in the front.
Adding a purist hi-fi ideal means we cant have full range coming from the behind the head so we should set about trying to balance the "rear fill" with the front stage - there is no "one size" solution, different cars, speakers, fitment or amps will all sound different so we have to experiment.
There is however a short cut, buy some decent 2 or 3 way 6" speakers, mount them on the rear deck and cut the wires to the mid/high components leaving the bass cone running low/mid bass, we have done this on simple 4 speaker installations and the results have been excellent, we used to tell the owner what we had done and many asked for the highs to be re-connected as they felt they where being cheated, we stopped telling them what we had done and they went away happy with a well balanced 4 speaker system.
I think you are being a bit hard on Legends6spd, in an ideal world highs, mids, lows would all be equidistant in front of the driver, not easy to acheive in a car specially the SC/Soarer which means we have to look at "rear fill" to assist.
The inclusion of rear fill is totally crazy, to have rear sounds killing the frontal staging BUT, (there's always a BUT), in the front of the car you are limited as to the size/power you can drive the front stage. Take the factory setup of 1" tweeter, 4" mids, placed in a specifically designed bookshelf speaker casing they would do an adaquate job of providing a small room with stereo sound, place the same speakers in the musically hostile environment of a car and they dont fare as well, stick in an RTA and checkout the gaps across the frequency range and you will soon see why they dont compare.
The lack of frequencies in the front end need to be bolstered, the easiest way to do this from the manufacturers point of view is to add speakers in the rear deck, running full range these tend to wash-out the front stage, hey they dont give a **** and most drivers wont even notice.
What is missing from the front stage, low bass is the most obvious, stick a 10" sub on the rear deck and it fits in comfortably with the front stage as bass is not very directional unlike the tweeters which are.
The 4" front speakers will also lack mid-bass, we can get that from the the rear deck, add two 6" bass drivers but tailor them to only work in the area between the sub and the front mid-range, if you cap the frequency of the rear mid-bass they will not be so directional as to drag the the listener away from the front stage.
Mid-range should not be a problem as decent front speakers should cope, the highs are catered for by the highly directional tweeters in the front.
Adding a purist hi-fi ideal means we cant have full range coming from the behind the head so we should set about trying to balance the "rear fill" with the front stage - there is no "one size" solution, different cars, speakers, fitment or amps will all sound different so we have to experiment.
There is however a short cut, buy some decent 2 or 3 way 6" speakers, mount them on the rear deck and cut the wires to the mid/high components leaving the bass cone running low/mid bass, we have done this on simple 4 speaker installations and the results have been excellent, we used to tell the owner what we had done and many asked for the highs to be re-connected as they felt they where being cheated, we stopped telling them what we had done and they went away happy with a well balanced 4 speaker system.
Last edited by London Bill; 10-16-02 at 11:54 PM.
10-17-02, 12:37 AM
#25
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Bill,
That is laughs...cutting the highs out of a 2way...LOL
Welp, again, to each their own. But understanding phase and the layout of the rear deck in an SC. Rear speakers are not effective ways of reproducing correct linear response. You noted that I and I recognize that.
My opinions are oddly simple and yet soooo complex. But with 5 or 6 speakers. You are doing a truly pure effort of reproducing the entire freq range with the simpleist of methods. This WILL have minor holes but nothing as frustrating as phase issues that can cause even larger wholes.
The front mounts are large and can accomodate some sizable speakers. A good pair of separates should cover most of the range without any problem... I think 5" mids should do perfectly.
All in all. I LOVE my install but recognize there are small gaps between the 5.35" and the tweeter. Would I go and try Tweeters, 4" mids, and 6.5" mid bass speakers...nope. Maybe some waveguides under the dash but not 3ways.
MW
That is laughs...cutting the highs out of a 2way...LOL
Welp, again, to each their own. But understanding phase and the layout of the rear deck in an SC. Rear speakers are not effective ways of reproducing correct linear response. You noted that I and I recognize that.
My opinions are oddly simple and yet soooo complex. But with 5 or 6 speakers. You are doing a truly pure effort of reproducing the entire freq range with the simpleist of methods. This WILL have minor holes but nothing as frustrating as phase issues that can cause even larger wholes.
The front mounts are large and can accomodate some sizable speakers. A good pair of separates should cover most of the range without any problem... I think 5" mids should do perfectly.
All in all. I LOVE my install but recognize there are small gaps between the 5.35" and the tweeter. Would I go and try Tweeters, 4" mids, and 6.5" mid bass speakers...nope. Maybe some waveguides under the dash but not 3ways.
MW
10-17-02, 01:27 AM
#26
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
MW,
Believe me, I see what you are saying. It's just hard for someone who doesn't know car audio as well to make their point known. My friends all have very good systems - at least very good to my ears (i was impressed and would be happy with what they got). It's hard to make my pt to them when their system's so nice and I've still got a crappy one so far.
Anyways, thanks for the link snowman. I had thought my system was great until I started getting into the aftermarket systems and the diff is night and day. Also, those specs are watts, i didn't know the exact specs for the each individual. Watever, I've decided to just swap everything out and try MW's route =) I'm putting all my faith in ya man.
Believe me, I see what you are saying. It's just hard for someone who doesn't know car audio as well to make their point known. My friends all have very good systems - at least very good to my ears (i was impressed and would be happy with what they got). It's hard to make my pt to them when their system's so nice and I've still got a crappy one so far.
Anyways, thanks for the link snowman. I had thought my system was great until I started getting into the aftermarket systems and the diff is night and day. Also, those specs are watts, i didn't know the exact specs for the each individual. Watever, I've decided to just swap everything out and try MW's route =) I'm putting all my faith in ya man.
10-17-02, 02:54 AM
#27
makes good sense
Bill, I like the idea of disabling the tweeter in the 2way - the crossover will still prevent the speaker from reproducing highs above the rolloff point and the speaker would be a "purer" midbass driver than a non 2way spkr of the same size.
I'm an old hifi hound who has lurked through this thread, you and pcmw both know your stuff, lots of good advice here.
I will be replacing my sub soon, and also the rear fills - have an old set of Boston 5.25 2ways that I will clip the tweets on -
I'm an old hifi hound who has lurked through this thread, you and pcmw both know your stuff, lots of good advice here.
I will be replacing my sub soon, and also the rear fills - have an old set of Boston 5.25 2ways that I will clip the tweets on -
10-17-02, 03:26 AM
#28
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I agree with you all, but if you just have fronts you have to make sure they are positioned correctly. I have 3 ways seperates in my car(not a lexus) and they sound absolutely great but sometimes I miss that sound behind me. Maybe its just because I don't go to concerts a lot or something but I just think if there is sound behind me it just sounds better. Believe me though none of my friends have nearly the same amount of mid bass upfront as I do and sometimes I feel I don't even need a subwoofer. I honestly would think that the average person wouldn't need a subwoofer with my setup. But when I get the lexus I'm not sure what I will do since I've heard there isn't much room for kick panels. 
My setup:
JVC SH-99
DEI 150
Atomic Quantum 6 1/2 3 way seperates(Anyone else use these or have heard them?)
My setup:
JVC SH-99
DEI 150
Atomic Quantum 6 1/2 3 way seperates(Anyone else use these or have heard them?)
10-17-02, 04:44 AM
#29
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Talking specifically SC/Soarer here, the front mounts are fairly good construction but in a ****-poor position, they fire the midrange downwards and because of the speaker being set back behind the panels this causes a "tight" dispersion angle, the front staging is most accurate some where near the base of the gear shift, if you dont believe me get your chin on the gearchange panel and listen to the difference, I did.
Because the front stage is somewhat suppressed any amount of mid range or higher coming from behind overpowers the front stage (maybe waveguides or front pods would resolve this but I care about how my car looks), so I would stick with nothing higher than mid-bass on the rear shelf, perferably running in mono.
PCMW; I am totally serious about chopping the tweeters on rear speakers, your assertion about phasing would be emphasised by reflecting tweeters against the rear screen, next time you have a stock 4 speaker system in a car give it a try it, it will noticably improve the front stage.
How on earth you could correct for phasing caused by unequal wave travel I do not know, 180degrees is easy just put the rear speakers "out of phase" to correct it but mid phase shifts would be difficult, is there such a thing as an audio phase shift device on the market today?
Because the front stage is somewhat suppressed any amount of mid range or higher coming from behind overpowers the front stage (maybe waveguides or front pods would resolve this but I care about how my car looks), so I would stick with nothing higher than mid-bass on the rear shelf, perferably running in mono.
PCMW; I am totally serious about chopping the tweeters on rear speakers, your assertion about phasing would be emphasised by reflecting tweeters against the rear screen, next time you have a stock 4 speaker system in a car give it a try it, it will noticably improve the front stage.
How on earth you could correct for phasing caused by unequal wave travel I do not know, 180degrees is easy just put the rear speakers "out of phase" to correct it but mid phase shifts would be difficult, is there such a thing as an audio phase shift device on the market today?
10-17-02, 12:46 PM
#30
Lexus Champion
The lack of a rear fill helps you to localize the fronts, I consider this to be a major factor, plus the solution is not to disable or lower the capabilities of the rears, it's to bolster the fronts! You can fit a 6.5" driver into the doors, so regardless of the crappy imaging and path length differences (I use DSP with time delay), I can't see the rears overcoming the fronts, but worse comes to worse, use the fader or lower the gain to the rears, it would take you longer to put a hot pocket in the microwave. And as far as sound at a concert not coming from behind you, listen to any live concert CD and tell me that the sound of the crowd going nuts behind you doesn't help make you feel like you're there...
Trust me, the trend is towards more channels of sound, not less (why doesn't anyone with a home system just have two front channels anymore?). Pretty soon, everyone and their grandmother will have Dolby Digital in the whip, and you'll need the surrounds to be just about as capable as the fronts, along with a nice ctr chan for all the voice reproduction. If you plan to watch any video in the car at all, you'll be adding speakers, not taking them away...
Trust me, the trend is towards more channels of sound, not less (why doesn't anyone with a home system just have two front channels anymore?). Pretty soon, everyone and their grandmother will have Dolby Digital in the whip, and you'll need the surrounds to be just about as capable as the fronts, along with a nice ctr chan for all the voice reproduction. If you plan to watch any video in the car at all, you'll be adding speakers, not taking them away...