Upgrade Mark Levinson thru summing external amps
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Upgrade Mark Levinson thru summing external amps
I have a 2007 GS 350 with a Mark Levinson 15 speaker system. While the ML is a very good system it does not compare to my last car which had a high end aftermarket stereo installed. I've made the decision to use a summing device to direct the ML signal to a four channel amp as well as a custom amplified aftermarket subwoofer (not to mention aftermarket speakers in doors/dash). My question is has any one done any thing similar and if so which summing device did they use. Some of the ones I've heard about are JBL MS-8, Audio Control, Kicker Sum8/9, Alpine processor and so on. I'd really like to hear from anyone who has done the install on a ML and can comment how well their summing device is working. I've also heard that the ML system volume must be left at a constant volume level since any change in volume will more or less confuse the summing device, so I suppose you would use a remote control from the summing device to do volume ??? Thanks in advance.
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Re JBL MS-8
If you could use stock HU volume with MS-8 that would be great, that would mean that the MS8 would some how have to dynamically adjust to the changing ML signal (not just volume but equalization etc.) since it differs with the ML as volume is increased.
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Please search here for answers on what people have done, but yes, the MS-8 since it is used to overcome a logic 7 design (AKA - a JBL technology) will compensate on the fly for the volume changes that are present in the ML system.
Big Mack
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Big Mack, I was searching for keywords JBL MS-8 but not getting hits, tried using just "JBL" and got some decent hits on MS8. Thanks. Seeng some mixed results some good,some mixed Example: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/...some-help.html I've been reading some decent reviews on the Audio Control DQL-8 which has a nice dash unit (maybe in glove box) for many quick adjustments. Only negative is big price.
Last edited by gsgdbeck; 04-16-11 at 08:21 AM. Reason: more info.
#6
This will be long story... I tried the MS-8 in my 2IS (non-ML, with NAV). After fighting it for two months, I ended up pulling it in disgust.
I had some of the same issues mentioned in the thread link listed above. In addition, I had a nasty turn-off pop and had to add an AudioControl LC8 in front of the MS-8 to get rid of it. Once I got passed that, there was lingering distortion in some speakers that I could not eliminate. Apparently, NAV head units send the signal at a sampling rate that the MS-8 can't read accurately. The only way the MS-8 could recognize the OEM signal and calibrate it was to set the HU DSP to "drivers" position. The problem with this is that the HU DSP settings affect levels, time delays, and acoustic phase for individual drivers in the system, and the MS-8 can't deal with this, especially an out of phase signal, thus the distortion results. It also sounded heavily right-side biased.
After relentlessly bugging the JBL guy in that thread (Andy Wehmeyer), he finally told me that for it to work I would need to intercept the HU outputs before the OEM amp and use that as the input signal to the MS-8. The downside to this is that you lose HU volume control, as well as other functionality that is processed in the OEM amp, like BT and NAV voice guidance. Plus, you run the risk of introducing noise into the system if you want to reconnect to the factory amp later. That was a deal breaker for me. Andy specifically mentioned that he had to do this fix in the GS with & without ML, so I don't think these issues are only present in the 2IS.
I was really disappointed in my MS-8 experience, especially since the impression given is that the unit was developed and works flawlessly in the 2IS. Apparently it works well with base non NAV, non-ML systems.
I'm going to an Audison BitOne next.
I had some of the same issues mentioned in the thread link listed above. In addition, I had a nasty turn-off pop and had to add an AudioControl LC8 in front of the MS-8 to get rid of it. Once I got passed that, there was lingering distortion in some speakers that I could not eliminate. Apparently, NAV head units send the signal at a sampling rate that the MS-8 can't read accurately. The only way the MS-8 could recognize the OEM signal and calibrate it was to set the HU DSP to "drivers" position. The problem with this is that the HU DSP settings affect levels, time delays, and acoustic phase for individual drivers in the system, and the MS-8 can't deal with this, especially an out of phase signal, thus the distortion results. It also sounded heavily right-side biased.
After relentlessly bugging the JBL guy in that thread (Andy Wehmeyer), he finally told me that for it to work I would need to intercept the HU outputs before the OEM amp and use that as the input signal to the MS-8. The downside to this is that you lose HU volume control, as well as other functionality that is processed in the OEM amp, like BT and NAV voice guidance. Plus, you run the risk of introducing noise into the system if you want to reconnect to the factory amp later. That was a deal breaker for me. Andy specifically mentioned that he had to do this fix in the GS with & without ML, so I don't think these issues are only present in the 2IS.
I was really disappointed in my MS-8 experience, especially since the impression given is that the unit was developed and works flawlessly in the 2IS. Apparently it works well with base non NAV, non-ML systems.
I'm going to an Audison BitOne next.
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AZ IS350, Really appreciate this reply, this is exactly why I made this post in the first place, to hear from first hand experience. Please reply back with your Audison BitOne experience if you have a chance. Thanks again and good luck, One other link I found interesting and here is a sentence from it "Complex multi-channel audio systems like the Mark Levinson systems in the newer Lexus models and the surround sound systems in the Acuras and Volvos are not prime candidates for the CleanSweep due to their multi-channel, divided-frequency outputs". http://caraudiomag.com/articles/brid...nd-aftermarket .
Last edited by gsgdbeck; 04-17-11 at 01:20 PM. Reason: More info.
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http://www.davidnavone.com/cart.asp?14&pid=145
http://www.davidnavone.com/cart.asp?14&pid=146
http://www.davidnavone.com/cart.asp?14&pid=148
This is cheaper than using the audiocontrol, and it also has the advantage of not putting another device in the signal path.
In general, you want to delay the power-off of the upstream processor and delay the power-on of the downstream amps.
Once I got passed that, there was lingering distortion in some speakers that I could not eliminate. Apparently, NAV head units send the signal at a sampling rate that the MS-8 can't read accurately. The only way the MS-8 could recognize the OEM signal and calibrate it was to set the HU DSP to "drivers" position. The problem with this is that the HU DSP settings affect levels, time delays, and acoustic phase for individual drivers in the system, and the MS-8 can't deal with this, especially an out of phase signal, thus the distortion results. It also sounded heavily right-side biased.
After relentlessly bugging the JBL guy in that thread (Andy Wehmeyer), he finally told me that for it to work I would need to intercept the HU outputs before the OEM amp and use that as the input signal to the MS-8. The downside to this is that you lose HU volume control, as well as other functionality that is processed in the OEM amp, like BT and NAV voice guidance. Plus, you run the risk of introducing noise into the system if you want to reconnect to the factory amp later. That was a deal breaker for me.
The problem with this is that, although using a bitone might get your system up and running, it's not going to have the big advantage of the MS8--the autotune. And you've already lost the built-in factory tune of the ML system, so you're left with nothing. Sound quality in a car is all about the tuning, and the bitone with its archaic 31-band EQs is not up to the task on its own. Even if you were to get some nice parametric DSP power in there downstream of the bitone, it is still a long and arduous and frustrating and error-prone process to manually tune a car. So, bitone+amps+speakers will get louder, but probably sound worse.
The good news is, at least you can get parametric processing fairly cheaply in-car:
http://www.minidsp.com
#9
A better way to solve on/off pops is to use devices that delay the power on/off, such as:
http://www.davidnavone.com/cart.asp?14&pid=145
http://www.davidnavone.com/cart.asp?14&pid=146
http://www.davidnavone.com/cart.asp?14&pid=148
http://www.davidnavone.com/cart.asp?14&pid=145
http://www.davidnavone.com/cart.asp?14&pid=146
http://www.davidnavone.com/cart.asp?14&pid=148
The problem with this is that, although using a bitone might get your system up and running, it's not going to have the big advantage of the MS8--the autotune. And you've already lost the built-in factory tune of the ML system, so you're left with nothing. Sound quality in a car is all about the tuning, and the bitone with its archaic 31-band EQs is not up to the task on its own. Even if you were to get some nice parametric DSP power in there downstream of the bitone, it is still a long and arduous and frustrating and error-prone process to manually tune a car. So, bitone+amps+speakers will get louder, but probably sound worse.
The big drawback to the MS-8 is its lack of tuning capability. It has the 31 band EQ, levels controls, and that’s about it. Granted, that works for the 90th percentile user, but if you hate the MS-8 autotune (and some do) there’s no way to defeat it and manually adjust to your liking.
The good news is, at least you can get parametric processing fairly cheaply in-car:
http://www.minidsp.com
http://www.minidsp.com
#10
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I have the ml in my 2007 gs and I went with the Jl set up clean sweep and 4 ssi for fading and balance control. It seem to work well for what I want in my car. May set up consist of hertz mids and high both front and rear with alpine pdx amps a f-6 and m-12. My subs are Jl 13w3 porter through the rear deck since there is a canceling problem with our cars. I might switch those out for 2 or 3 type x 10 I have, but all in all it work great for me.
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Yeah I originally tried a couple of cheap PAC LOC’s and they got rid of the thump too, but you need at least 6 channels of LOC, so the LC8 offered a cleaner all-in-one solution, with better level control, plus I was hoping the internal summing capability of the LC8 might overcome the MS-8 issue (it didn’t).
I don’t have the ML system, so my HU DSP options may be different than what’s offered with ML. My DSP options consist of : "driver", "front", "rear", "all", with “all” essentially defeating the DSP. There’s no way to turn it “off “ in the non-ML system. The MS-8 couldn’t identify the signal at any position except “driver”, due to the sampling rate issue with the MS-8. Therein is the problem – the signal is already stepped on by DSP in the OEM amp at “driver” position, levels are adjusted and out of phase, and TA/EQ is applied to the source signal.
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/lex...-8-anyone.html
The big drawback to the MS-8 is its lack of tuning capability. It has the 31 band EQ, levels controls, and that’s about it. Granted, that works for the 90th percentile user, but if you hate the MS-8 autotune (and some do) there’s no way to defeat it and manually adjust to your liking.
I believe the only one of these with an autotune is the Imprint. I tried the old Imprint autotuner and it was atrocious. If Alpine wins some nationwide competitions with their new Imprint, then I might consider it.
#12
So, I’m not interested in getting into an internet dik-swinging contest with anyone here about how well/how to make the MS-8 work in any other Lexus, or the virtues of any other processor for that matter.
All I can state factually is that I tried the MS-8 in a 2IS non-ML with NAV, without success. I tried extensive measures to make it work, more so than the average person would, and it still it didn’t work. A high level source at JBL confirmed my issues, so I’d say my results are conclusive for my model and audio system, and I’m not willing to try the compromise solution they proposed.
As to whether it will work in other Lexus vehicles, or why it appears to work in some but not others, I cannot say. I encourage everyone who’s interested to try it in their own vehicles and report back on their success.
My BitOne is on order. If I have success with it, I'll be sure to post.
All I can state factually is that I tried the MS-8 in a 2IS non-ML with NAV, without success. I tried extensive measures to make it work, more so than the average person would, and it still it didn’t work. A high level source at JBL confirmed my issues, so I’d say my results are conclusive for my model and audio system, and I’m not willing to try the compromise solution they proposed.
As to whether it will work in other Lexus vehicles, or why it appears to work in some but not others, I cannot say. I encourage everyone who’s interested to try it in their own vehicles and report back on their success.
My BitOne is on order. If I have success with it, I'll be sure to post.
Last edited by AZ IS350; 04-26-11 at 06:41 PM.
#14
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So, I’m not interested in getting into an internet dik-swinging contest with anyone here about how well/how to make the MS-8 work in any other Lexus, or the virtues of any other processor for that matter.
All I can state factually is that I tried the MS-8 in a 2IS non-ML with NAV, without success. I tried extensive measures to make it work, more so than the average person would, and it still it didn’t work. A high level source at JBL confirmed my issues, so I’d say my results are conclusive for my model and audio system, and I’m not willing to try the compromise solution they proposed.
As to whether it will work in other Lexus vehicles, or why it appears to work in some but not others, I cannot say. I encourage everyone who’s interested to try it in their own vehicles and report back on their success.
My BitOne is on order. If I have success with it, I'll be sure to post.
All I can state factually is that I tried the MS-8 in a 2IS non-ML with NAV, without success. I tried extensive measures to make it work, more so than the average person would, and it still it didn’t work. A high level source at JBL confirmed my issues, so I’d say my results are conclusive for my model and audio system, and I’m not willing to try the compromise solution they proposed.
As to whether it will work in other Lexus vehicles, or why it appears to work in some but not others, I cannot say. I encourage everyone who’s interested to try it in their own vehicles and report back on their success.
My BitOne is on order. If I have success with it, I'll be sure to post.
but this post is making me think twice about it ...hmmmm
#15
I posted my thoughts about the MS-8 in your thread over in the 2IS section. If you have NAV, then don't get the MS-8.