More thoughts on the M3 vs F (long)
#16
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The shift speed on the F's 8 speed is pretty close to the M-DCT on upshifts. It might even be faster, but if it is I couldn't tell. Where the M-DCT shines in on the speed of downshifts. This might have more to do with the fact that the 4.0L V8 revs a bit faster allowing rev matching to happen quicker than the actually tranny being a lot faster. Whatever it is the M-DCT feels faster to me in manual mode.
I know that one of the magazines, Car & Driver I think, said that their long term M3's DCT tranny was feeling a bit tired. I'm not really sure what they mean by this, but my car has less than 2k miles on it so I can't really comment on the durability of the tranny just yet. So far it still feels very tight and responsive.
Last edited by Cabinetman; 11-27-09 at 08:09 AM.
#17
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Great review Cabinetman!
Very fair assessment of both cars. I agree with you that they both have their own strengths and weaknesses. It's nice to read some of your more objective posts over on M3 post as well. It's hilarious to listen to the fanbois over there.
Enjoy your beautiful new car!
Very fair assessment of both cars. I agree with you that they both have their own strengths and weaknesses. It's nice to read some of your more objective posts over on M3 post as well. It's hilarious to listen to the fanbois over there.
Enjoy your beautiful new car!
I will probably hold onto the M for a couple of years and then reevaluate my needs/desires. If my budget allows I might make the jump to a P car, but I will definitely look at everything else that is out there. Hopefully by that time a new IS-F, M3 and Audi RS4 (assuming it comes to the States) will be on dealers' lots or right around the corner.
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Great write up...I appreciate the candor. I think it's normal that people pick sides (drilled into us since birth). I'm like you that you look at what's out there and what best fit your needs (at least for a 2-3 year window). The F has proved to be a fun car that I've yet to get tired of. The P 911 is fun too, but so many advantages with the F.
Thanks for sharing.
Thanks for sharing.
#22
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As some of you know I sold my 2008 IS-F and replaced it with a 2010 E90 (sedan) M3 with the M-DCT transmission. I got through the 1200 mile break-in about 3 weeks ago, so now I can better compare the two cars.
There are a few things I find myself missing from my F. I really liked having front parking sensors and the backup camera, neither of which you can get on the US spec M3. I used them most of the time to position my car perfectly in the garage so it was as far away from my wife's car as possible. Those of you with young kids understand the need for this. I also miss seeing proper multi-piston fixed caliper brakes peeking through the BBS wheels. While the M3 brakes are fine for the street they are still not fitting for a focused performance car in my opinion.
There are some things the M has that I feel the IS-F is lacking. The biggest is EDC (Electronic Damping Control). It works pretty well on the M and makes for a more comfortable car on crappy roads. The other thing I really like is the programmable M button. Think of this button as the sport button on the F, but the user can choose which settings the car reverts to when the button is pushed. In my car the M button is set up to do the following: M-DCT goes to manual mode with level 5 programming (this is the fastest shift program allowed with stability control activated), throttle response is set to sport, the steering is set to sport, stability control switches to MDM ( M Dynamic Mode) and the suspension goes from comfort to normal. Also, the M button is on the steering wheel instead of hidden behind it on the dash like on the F. Another thing is the seats in the M have an adjustable thigh support that I really like. Being over 6' tall I often find cars to have seat cushions that are too short and this feature takes care of that problem. One last small thing that I prefer on the M is the shift lights. I think this is a better solution than the audible notification the F gives as you near redline.
Now the important part. Which one drives better? Well, it depends on what you are looking for. The F is flat out better at squirting around town in traffic. It feels faster off the line and the engine is more responsive at lower revs. The added torque makes all the difference here. The F also does a better job of impersonating a normal commuter car when you want it to. By this I mean the transmission is smoother in auto mode and the cabin is a more relaxing place to be (unless you are in the back seat which is tighter than the M). The only thing that really hurts the F is the stiff suspension that can make the car a bit unsettled on rough roads. I'm not one who thinks the F's suspension is abusive, but compared to the M it could be better. Basically, at 6/10ths I prefer the way the F drove.
The M3 shins when you start pushing. The 4.0L V8 that feels a bit weak at lower revs turns into a totally different animal between 5000 and the 8400 rpm redline. When revved the M engine feels a bit more special and focused than the F's wonderful power plant.
The M-DCT also comes into its own when the pace picks up. While not as good at being an auto as the F's 8 speed, the M-DCT trumps the F in manual mode. Both upshifts and downshifts feel faster and more direct. Also, rev matching occurs almost instantly on downshifts.
The biggest advantage the M3 has is in chassis dynamics. It is obvious that the folks at M division have a bit more experience in this area. The M communicates what is going on at the wheels better than the F. The steering and chassis have a more direct and unfiltered feeling. This allows me to push the car harder because I have plenty of notice before things get out of shape. Also, the BMW has more front end grip which makes for more neutral handling through the corners. The impressive part is the M is able to do all this while riding better than the F.
I think it is obvious that I like both cars. They both have their strengths and weaknesses. If the F had a little more back seat room and slightly softer suspension I would say it is the better daily driver unless your commute includes a lot of curves and little traffic. If I owned a dedicated sports car I think that the F would probably be my choice as a second car. Since I don't, I feel like the M3 is a better compromise since it does a better job a playing sports car when the roads and traffic allow. The good news is that the F was Lexus' first attempt at car like this. Considering how much I enjoyed the F, I can't wait to see what the future holds.
One final thing I will touch on is value. Here I think the IS-F wins hands down. If I had speced out my M3 to match all the features I had on my F it would have had a sticker price north of $70k. By leaving off the sunroof and premium audio I saved $3k, but still ended up with an M3 that was almost $5k more than my F if comparing sticker to sticker. When you factor in the fact that I got 2 to 3 mpg better out of my F it is obvious the Lexus is easier on the wallet. The only real advantage the BMW has is that maintenance is included for the first 40k miles.
There are a few things I find myself missing from my F. I really liked having front parking sensors and the backup camera, neither of which you can get on the US spec M3. I used them most of the time to position my car perfectly in the garage so it was as far away from my wife's car as possible. Those of you with young kids understand the need for this. I also miss seeing proper multi-piston fixed caliper brakes peeking through the BBS wheels. While the M3 brakes are fine for the street they are still not fitting for a focused performance car in my opinion.
There are some things the M has that I feel the IS-F is lacking. The biggest is EDC (Electronic Damping Control). It works pretty well on the M and makes for a more comfortable car on crappy roads. The other thing I really like is the programmable M button. Think of this button as the sport button on the F, but the user can choose which settings the car reverts to when the button is pushed. In my car the M button is set up to do the following: M-DCT goes to manual mode with level 5 programming (this is the fastest shift program allowed with stability control activated), throttle response is set to sport, the steering is set to sport, stability control switches to MDM ( M Dynamic Mode) and the suspension goes from comfort to normal. Also, the M button is on the steering wheel instead of hidden behind it on the dash like on the F. Another thing is the seats in the M have an adjustable thigh support that I really like. Being over 6' tall I often find cars to have seat cushions that are too short and this feature takes care of that problem. One last small thing that I prefer on the M is the shift lights. I think this is a better solution than the audible notification the F gives as you near redline.
Now the important part. Which one drives better? Well, it depends on what you are looking for. The F is flat out better at squirting around town in traffic. It feels faster off the line and the engine is more responsive at lower revs. The added torque makes all the difference here. The F also does a better job of impersonating a normal commuter car when you want it to. By this I mean the transmission is smoother in auto mode and the cabin is a more relaxing place to be (unless you are in the back seat which is tighter than the M). The only thing that really hurts the F is the stiff suspension that can make the car a bit unsettled on rough roads. I'm not one who thinks the F's suspension is abusive, but compared to the M it could be better. Basically, at 6/10ths I prefer the way the F drove.
The M3 shins when you start pushing. The 4.0L V8 that feels a bit weak at lower revs turns into a totally different animal between 5000 and the 8400 rpm redline. When revved the M engine feels a bit more special and focused than the F's wonderful power plant.
The M-DCT also comes into its own when the pace picks up. While not as good at being an auto as the F's 8 speed, the M-DCT trumps the F in manual mode. Both upshifts and downshifts feel faster and more direct. Also, rev matching occurs almost instantly on downshifts.
The biggest advantage the M3 has is in chassis dynamics. It is obvious that the folks at M division have a bit more experience in this area. The M communicates what is going on at the wheels better than the F. The steering and chassis have a more direct and unfiltered feeling. This allows me to push the car harder because I have plenty of notice before things get out of shape. Also, the BMW has more front end grip which makes for more neutral handling through the corners. The impressive part is the M is able to do all this while riding better than the F.
I think it is obvious that I like both cars. They both have their strengths and weaknesses. If the F had a little more back seat room and slightly softer suspension I would say it is the better daily driver unless your commute includes a lot of curves and little traffic. If I owned a dedicated sports car I think that the F would probably be my choice as a second car. Since I don't, I feel like the M3 is a better compromise since it does a better job a playing sports car when the roads and traffic allow. The good news is that the F was Lexus' first attempt at car like this. Considering how much I enjoyed the F, I can't wait to see what the future holds.
One final thing I will touch on is value. Here I think the IS-F wins hands down. If I had speced out my M3 to match all the features I had on my F it would have had a sticker price north of $70k. By leaving off the sunroof and premium audio I saved $3k, but still ended up with an M3 that was almost $5k more than my F if comparing sticker to sticker. When you factor in the fact that I got 2 to 3 mpg better out of my F it is obvious the Lexus is easier on the wallet. The only real advantage the BMW has is that maintenance is included for the first 40k miles.
#23
#24
Has anyone installed Tein Coil over Damping Kit on IS-F this system looks like it will do everything M-EDC system does.
Tein Electronic Damping Force Controller($1,700.00)can control damping force with touch of a button , using step motors installed on each shock absorber. This system can be adjusted to any road or track condition right from drivers seat on fly.
Some of adjustments that can be done are:
3 Presets for quick adjustments
separately adjustable front and rear setting
ability to switch between 16 and 32 way adjustments
looks like this system would give just what IS-F needs suspension wise.
Tein Electronic Damping Force Controller($1,700.00)can control damping force with touch of a button , using step motors installed on each shock absorber. This system can be adjusted to any road or track condition right from drivers seat on fly.
Some of adjustments that can be done are:
3 Presets for quick adjustments
separately adjustable front and rear setting
ability to switch between 16 and 32 way adjustments
looks like this system would give just what IS-F needs suspension wise.
#26
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Great review, I agree pretty much with everything the OP has posted on both cars.
I've driven a e93 m3 cabrio from norcal to socal a few times now so gotten enough seat time in the newer m3's. It seems BMW really has the DNA in these cars figured out. Pushed hard, any model year m3 just runs better than 99% of the cars out there.
My IS-F just passed 6500 miles and though I love the car, 2 things really bug me. Having to hit that invisible "sport" button each time behind the steering wheel really sucks and I still don't like how the front end seems to dive and bounce. (Have BCR coils on there now but anxious to try the KWV3's soon hopefully to solve that issue).
One thing the OP forgot to mention is the simply awesome steering wheel on his m3. The Lexus one leaves much to be desired compared to the m3's thick meaty wheel.
rick
I've driven a e93 m3 cabrio from norcal to socal a few times now so gotten enough seat time in the newer m3's. It seems BMW really has the DNA in these cars figured out. Pushed hard, any model year m3 just runs better than 99% of the cars out there.
My IS-F just passed 6500 miles and though I love the car, 2 things really bug me. Having to hit that invisible "sport" button each time behind the steering wheel really sucks and I still don't like how the front end seems to dive and bounce. (Have BCR coils on there now but anxious to try the KWV3's soon hopefully to solve that issue).
One thing the OP forgot to mention is the simply awesome steering wheel on his m3. The Lexus one leaves much to be desired compared to the m3's thick meaty wheel.
rick
#27
11 Second Club
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I just realized there are some pretty descent gains on the E9x M3 with ECU tune, exhaust, intake and pulley. On dragtimes there is a guy that ran a 12 flat and another that ran a 12.1 with the DCT model. That's quicker than I ever imagined they would be. I really really wish there was an ECU tune for the IS-F.
#28
I just realized there are some pretty descent gains on the E9x M3 with ECU tune, exhaust, intake and pulley. On dragtimes there is a guy that ran a 12 flat and another that ran a 12.1 with the DCT model. That's quicker than I ever imagined they would be. I really really wish there was an ECU tune for the IS-F.
#29
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I can't believe I forgot about the wheel! To be honest, the first time I test drove a M3 I thought the steering wheel was cartoonishly thick. Now, I love it. It just adds to the special feeling I get every time I drive my car.