More thoughts on the M3 vs F (long)
11-26-09, 03:51 AM
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More thoughts on the M3 vs F (long)
As some of you know I sold my 2008 IS-F and replaced it with a 2010 E90 (sedan) M3 with the M-DCT transmission. I got through the 1200 mile break-in about 3 weeks ago, so now I can better compare the two cars.
There are a few things I find myself missing from my F. I really liked having front parking sensors and the backup camera, neither of which you can get on the US spec M3. I used them most of the time to position my car perfectly in the garage so it was as far away from my wife's car as possible. Those of you with young kids understand the need for this. I also miss seeing proper multi-piston fixed caliper brakes peeking through the BBS wheels. While the M3 brakes are fine for the street they are still not fitting for a focused performance car in my opinion.
There are some things the M has that I feel the IS-F is lacking. The biggest is EDC (Electronic Damping Control). It works pretty well on the M and makes for a more comfortable car on crappy roads. The other thing I really like is the programmable M button. Think of this button as the sport button on the F, but the user can choose which settings the car reverts to when the button is pushed. In my car the M button is set up to do the following: M-DCT goes to manual mode with level 5 programming (this is the fastest shift program allowed with stability control activated), throttle response is set to sport, the steering is set to sport, stability control switches to MDM ( M Dynamic Mode) and the suspension goes from comfort to normal. Also, the M button is on the steering wheel instead of hidden behind it on the dash like on the F. Another thing is the seats in the M have an adjustable thigh support that I really like. Being over 6' tall I often find cars to have seat cushions that are too short and this feature takes care of that problem. One last small thing that I prefer on the M is the shift lights. I think this is a better solution than the audible notification the F gives as you near redline.
Now the important part. Which one drives better? Well, it depends on what you are looking for. The F is flat out better at squirting around town in traffic. It feels faster off the line and the engine is more responsive at lower revs. The added torque makes all the difference here. The F also does a better job of impersonating a normal commuter car when you want it to. By this I mean the transmission is smoother in auto mode and the cabin is a more relaxing place to be (unless you are in the back seat which is tighter than the M). The only thing that really hurts the F is the stiff suspension that can make the car a bit unsettled on rough roads. I'm not one who thinks the F's suspension is abusive, but compared to the M it could be better. Basically, at 6/10ths I prefer the way the F drove.
The M3 shins when you start pushing. The 4.0L V8 that feels a bit weak at lower revs turns into a totally different animal between 5000 and the 8400 rpm redline. When revved the M engine feels a bit more special and focused than the F's wonderful power plant.
The M-DCT also comes into its own when the pace picks up. While not as good at being an auto as the F's 8 speed, the M-DCT trumps the F in manual mode. Both upshifts and downshifts feel faster and more direct. Also, rev matching occurs almost instantly on downshifts.
The biggest advantage the M3 has is in chassis dynamics. It is obvious that the folks at M division have a bit more experience in this area. The M communicates what is going on at the wheels better than the F. The steering and chassis have a more direct and unfiltered feeling. This allows me to push the car harder because I have plenty of notice before things get out of shape. Also, the BMW has more front end grip which makes for more neutral handling through the corners. The impressive part is the M is able to do all this while riding better than the F.
I think it is obvious that I like both cars. They both have their strengths and weaknesses. If the F had a little more back seat room and slightly softer suspension I would say it is the better daily driver unless your commute includes a lot of curves and little traffic. If I owned a dedicated sports car I think that the F would probably be my choice as a second car. Since I don't, I feel like the M3 is a better compromise since it does a better job a playing sports car when the roads and traffic allow. The good news is that the F was Lexus' first attempt at car like this. Considering how much I enjoyed the F, I can't wait to see what the future holds.
One final thing I will touch on is value. Here I think the IS-F wins hands down. If I had speced out my M3 to match all the features I had on my F it would have had a sticker price north of $70k. By leaving off the sunroof and premium audio I saved $3k, but still ended up with an M3 that was almost $5k more than my F if comparing sticker to sticker. When you factor in the fact that I got 2 to 3 mpg better out of my F it is obvious the Lexus is easier on the wallet. The only real advantage the BMW has is that maintenance is included for the first 40k miles.
There are a few things I find myself missing from my F. I really liked having front parking sensors and the backup camera, neither of which you can get on the US spec M3. I used them most of the time to position my car perfectly in the garage so it was as far away from my wife's car as possible. Those of you with young kids understand the need for this. I also miss seeing proper multi-piston fixed caliper brakes peeking through the BBS wheels. While the M3 brakes are fine for the street they are still not fitting for a focused performance car in my opinion.
There are some things the M has that I feel the IS-F is lacking. The biggest is EDC (Electronic Damping Control). It works pretty well on the M and makes for a more comfortable car on crappy roads. The other thing I really like is the programmable M button. Think of this button as the sport button on the F, but the user can choose which settings the car reverts to when the button is pushed. In my car the M button is set up to do the following: M-DCT goes to manual mode with level 5 programming (this is the fastest shift program allowed with stability control activated), throttle response is set to sport, the steering is set to sport, stability control switches to MDM ( M Dynamic Mode) and the suspension goes from comfort to normal. Also, the M button is on the steering wheel instead of hidden behind it on the dash like on the F. Another thing is the seats in the M have an adjustable thigh support that I really like. Being over 6' tall I often find cars to have seat cushions that are too short and this feature takes care of that problem. One last small thing that I prefer on the M is the shift lights. I think this is a better solution than the audible notification the F gives as you near redline.
Now the important part. Which one drives better? Well, it depends on what you are looking for. The F is flat out better at squirting around town in traffic. It feels faster off the line and the engine is more responsive at lower revs. The added torque makes all the difference here. The F also does a better job of impersonating a normal commuter car when you want it to. By this I mean the transmission is smoother in auto mode and the cabin is a more relaxing place to be (unless you are in the back seat which is tighter than the M). The only thing that really hurts the F is the stiff suspension that can make the car a bit unsettled on rough roads. I'm not one who thinks the F's suspension is abusive, but compared to the M it could be better. Basically, at 6/10ths I prefer the way the F drove.
The M3 shins when you start pushing. The 4.0L V8 that feels a bit weak at lower revs turns into a totally different animal between 5000 and the 8400 rpm redline. When revved the M engine feels a bit more special and focused than the F's wonderful power plant.
The M-DCT also comes into its own when the pace picks up. While not as good at being an auto as the F's 8 speed, the M-DCT trumps the F in manual mode. Both upshifts and downshifts feel faster and more direct. Also, rev matching occurs almost instantly on downshifts.
The biggest advantage the M3 has is in chassis dynamics. It is obvious that the folks at M division have a bit more experience in this area. The M communicates what is going on at the wheels better than the F. The steering and chassis have a more direct and unfiltered feeling. This allows me to push the car harder because I have plenty of notice before things get out of shape. Also, the BMW has more front end grip which makes for more neutral handling through the corners. The impressive part is the M is able to do all this while riding better than the F.
I think it is obvious that I like both cars. They both have their strengths and weaknesses. If the F had a little more back seat room and slightly softer suspension I would say it is the better daily driver unless your commute includes a lot of curves and little traffic. If I owned a dedicated sports car I think that the F would probably be my choice as a second car. Since I don't, I feel like the M3 is a better compromise since it does a better job a playing sports car when the roads and traffic allow. The good news is that the F was Lexus' first attempt at car like this. Considering how much I enjoyed the F, I can't wait to see what the future holds.
One final thing I will touch on is value. Here I think the IS-F wins hands down. If I had speced out my M3 to match all the features I had on my F it would have had a sticker price north of $70k. By leaving off the sunroof and premium audio I saved $3k, but still ended up with an M3 that was almost $5k more than my F if comparing sticker to sticker. When you factor in the fact that I got 2 to 3 mpg better out of my F it is obvious the Lexus is easier on the wallet. The only real advantage the BMW has is that maintenance is included for the first 40k miles.
11-26-09, 06:38 AM
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Very interesting write up, and I'm glad that you are enjoying your M car as BMW builds some of the best cars in the world. I'm a previous E46 M3 owner and I miss that car often. Couple comments:
1. I wonder what your thoughts would be comparing the new LSD IS-F vs the M3
2. I think the IS-F deos better than your estimated 2-3 mpg over the M car. Some have reported (including myself) averaging nearly 30 mpg on freeway/road trips and the M3 can't even come close to this or you wouldn't be paying the pernicious gas guzzler tax.
3. Your comparisons in quality were interesting (especially given recent Toyota/Lexus recall) and I was wondering if you were one of the fortunate DCT owners that had their car recalled for engine stalling under hard braking?
Thanks again for your insight and enjoy your M
1. I wonder what your thoughts would be comparing the new LSD IS-F vs the M3
2. I think the IS-F deos better than your estimated 2-3 mpg over the M car. Some have reported (including myself) averaging nearly 30 mpg on freeway/road trips and the M3 can't even come close to this or you wouldn't be paying the pernicious gas guzzler tax.
3. Your comparisons in quality were interesting (especially given recent Toyota/Lexus recall) and I was wondering if you were one of the fortunate DCT owners that had their car recalled for engine stalling under hard braking?
Thanks again for your insight and enjoy your M
11-26-09, 10:17 AM
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I always liked the lowend trq of a V8 but the M3 has only a 4.0L which is dissappointing. My current car is a 02 Clk55 NA stock which puts out 335whp 350wtq. I'm looking into the C63,ISF, possibly the GTR. Not replacing the Clk55.
11-26-09, 10:51 AM
#7
Lexus Connoisseur
That's a great comparison. 
Now that you see the true differences between the two, it does help give some real world perspective to us in the market for an ISF or an M3 or those looking to switch from ISF to M3 or M3 to ISF. Thank you!
Now that you see the true differences between the two, it does help give some real world perspective to us in the market for an ISF or an M3 or those looking to switch from ISF to M3 or M3 to ISF. Thank you!
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11-26-09, 10:58 AM
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Thanks for sharing your insights, and I agree with you on every point, and to an extreme extent on the suspension settings selection on the F or lack thereof. One thing I can't agree with you on is that M-DCT shifts faster than Lexus' SDS system... to me M-DCT felt out of breath and tired even at the highest settings M-mode will permit.
Again, thanks for this first-hand and unbiased comparison.
Again, thanks for this first-hand and unbiased comparison.
11-26-09, 11:17 AM
#9
Wow...I just joined the list today and I have been debating on the M3 VS the F. That is a great evaluation on the 2. You touched on three points I have wanted to research between the two. Ride quality, MPG, and Cost out the door.....looks like the F takes 2 out of 3....not bad ;-)
airlaird
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11-26-09, 11:35 AM
#10
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Great review Cabinetman!
Very fair assessment of both cars. I agree with you that they both have their own strengths and weaknesses. It's nice to read some of your more objective posts over on M3 post as well. It's hilarious to listen to the fanbois over there.
Enjoy your beautiful new car!
Very fair assessment of both cars. I agree with you that they both have their own strengths and weaknesses. It's nice to read some of your more objective posts over on M3 post as well. It's hilarious to listen to the fanbois over there.
Enjoy your beautiful new car!
11-26-09, 01:14 PM
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I want to purchase a e92 M3 within 1-2 years. Maybe for my 30th birthday as a present for myself.
I'm the opposite. I will get a bare bones M3. I do not want EDC or DCT. Most people who get the EDC get it because they can put it in comfort mode for their wife. I'm buying this car for myself and I actually like the stiff ride.
I'm the opposite. I will get a bare bones M3. I do not want EDC or DCT. Most people who get the EDC get it because they can put it in comfort mode for their wife. I'm buying this car for myself and I actually like the stiff ride.
Last edited by gsrthomas; 11-26-09 at 02:33 PM.
11-26-09, 01:33 PM
#13
great insight. hope you enjoy your new ride. its nice to see an objective viewpoint from one who has taken the time to ride both the F and M3 and can give an appreciation for both vehicles.
11-26-09, 06:27 PM
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I thought the F have one of the fastest shifting tranny in the biz??? There are alot of complaints about the M's tranny. but then again I dont want to sound like I am favoring on the F too much.
11-26-09, 07:34 PM
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Awesome read. Thanks for sharing! I agree that the F should have come with adjustable suspension settings! Or at the very least merge that setting into the sport mode. I honestly love the firm ride and think it's perfect, but it could be jarring for passengers.
The F does have a shift light that accompanies the beep, doesn't it? I remember seeing an orange light when it beeped.
The F does have a shift light that accompanies the beep, doesn't it? I remember seeing an orange light when it beeped.