Lexus 2.0T vs BMW 2.0T
11-03-15, 05:53 PM
#16
Lexus Test Driver
be speaking another language, ill say what it is
the bmw n20 is the best turbo motor out there
whoever thinks the benz and the lexus motor is best in class,
then start to test drive cars and read about cars
the best motor for a turbo car in the world is the b58 motor 6 cylinder bmw motor now in the 340 and the 740
the 2nd best turbo motor is the n20 4 cylinder today i drove 120 miles highway around 70 mph average,
got 35 mpg highway at that speed, best in class torque
best power
best mpg
no turbo lag
the bmw n20 is the best turbo motor out there
whoever thinks the benz and the lexus motor is best in class,
then start to test drive cars and read about cars
the best motor for a turbo car in the world is the b58 motor 6 cylinder bmw motor now in the 340 and the 740
the 2nd best turbo motor is the n20 4 cylinder today i drove 120 miles highway around 70 mph average,
got 35 mpg highway at that speed, best in class torque
best power
best mpg
no turbo lag
11-03-15, 08:19 PM
#18
Don't worry about the response, but pay attention to the shape of the BM 2.0T torque curve.
Notice how the curve is very peaky with an initial flat spot before the turbo boom rushes in?
The Benz & Lexus are flatter curves.
Personally, I prefer flatter curves, and engines that spin seamlessly.
Notice how the curve is very peaky with an initial flat spot before the turbo boom rushes in?
The Benz & Lexus are flatter curves.
Personally, I prefer flatter curves, and engines that spin seamlessly.
11-04-15, 05:22 AM
#19
i won't worry about response or torque curve but i will drove both cars like i did and the finding tell all
bmw motor with 4 cyl turbo, almost no lag, power in the whole rpm spectrum from down low to high,
pulls like a freight train to 6500 rpm, sport mode is a blast
brilliant 8 speed always ready to down shift w no reservation, cruises at 75 mpg at 1900 rpm gets 26 mpg combined after 6500 miles
is 200 test drive
very good in response off line a hint of turbo lag
higher rpm above 1250 to get useable power
good power from 1800 to 5200 rpm, then it tapers off felt like had nothing more to give when i was kicking it down.
gas mileage will be similar but think the bmw highway gas mileage will be better at steady cruise speed
bottom line, lexus did a great job with the turbo 4 kudos to them well needed for the times and the brand,
they will have a more reliable powertrain than the germans you can guarantee that, is it a bmw turbo 4 no. is it as fast no, is it have almost no turbo lag no. is the 8 speed as good as the bmw no
like i said drive it for yourself whoever is reading and purchasing and make a decision that fits your needs
its like all the is 350 owners that were expecting a 400 hp turbo 4 cylinder and they want to stay with is 350
thats great its a great proven motor that has the efficiency of my ls430... terrific but not todays market or what most buyers are looking for in a daily cruiser. read all the posts about 275 -350 miles to a tank of gas these days are over
bmw motor with 4 cyl turbo, almost no lag, power in the whole rpm spectrum from down low to high,
pulls like a freight train to 6500 rpm, sport mode is a blast
brilliant 8 speed always ready to down shift w no reservation, cruises at 75 mpg at 1900 rpm gets 26 mpg combined after 6500 miles
is 200 test drive
very good in response off line a hint of turbo lag
higher rpm above 1250 to get useable power
good power from 1800 to 5200 rpm, then it tapers off felt like had nothing more to give when i was kicking it down.
gas mileage will be similar but think the bmw highway gas mileage will be better at steady cruise speed
bottom line, lexus did a great job with the turbo 4 kudos to them well needed for the times and the brand,
they will have a more reliable powertrain than the germans you can guarantee that, is it a bmw turbo 4 no. is it as fast no, is it have almost no turbo lag no. is the 8 speed as good as the bmw no
like i said drive it for yourself whoever is reading and purchasing and make a decision that fits your needs
its like all the is 350 owners that were expecting a 400 hp turbo 4 cylinder and they want to stay with is 350
thats great its a great proven motor that has the efficiency of my ls430... terrific but not todays market or what most buyers are looking for in a daily cruiser. read all the posts about 275 -350 miles to a tank of gas these days are over
11-04-15, 07:59 AM
#20
When we press the accelerator, most engines will respond in a fraction of a second, so ignore response times.
Most people use the term lag to mean the time it takes the huge surge of torque to kick in, and with the BM 2.0T, the initial acceleration is only average, then after a while, it will then thrust!
You can feel the shape of the BM torque curve when you drive.
With the smaller turbos used in Benz & Lexus, the immediate thrust is more instant, but then the turbo is saturated & runs out of breath at hi rpm.
Life is a compromise, and presently we can't have it both ways, unless an electric motor is teamed up with a big heavy turbo blade.
In such case, the electric motor would accelerate the big heavy turbo blade quickly, while the big turbine would give high power at hi rpm's, without being saturated.
The small turbo design is more practical for eveyday driving, but runs out of breath at hi rpm, however mums & dads will rarely venture past 3000 rpm.
Also be careful when manufacturers quote max torque available from 1500 to 6000 rpm etc - that's at full throttle only, and not at part throttle.
At part throttle, a big turbine will have a flat spot in the torque curve down low.
Saab has been using small low pressure turbos since the 1990's, at a time when BM was naturally aspirated, while Benz had Kompressors.
When I first drove Benz's 2.0T many years ago, I immediately wondered if Benz had purchased patents from Saab! Because the engines felt very similar. Not so the BM 2.0T.
The BM 2.0T is just a large turbo blade, and with the pros & cons that come with such a design; there is no magic.
Most people use the term lag to mean the time it takes the huge surge of torque to kick in, and with the BM 2.0T, the initial acceleration is only average, then after a while, it will then thrust!
You can feel the shape of the BM torque curve when you drive.
With the smaller turbos used in Benz & Lexus, the immediate thrust is more instant, but then the turbo is saturated & runs out of breath at hi rpm.
Life is a compromise, and presently we can't have it both ways, unless an electric motor is teamed up with a big heavy turbo blade.
In such case, the electric motor would accelerate the big heavy turbo blade quickly, while the big turbine would give high power at hi rpm's, without being saturated.
The small turbo design is more practical for eveyday driving, but runs out of breath at hi rpm, however mums & dads will rarely venture past 3000 rpm.
Also be careful when manufacturers quote max torque available from 1500 to 6000 rpm etc - that's at full throttle only, and not at part throttle.
At part throttle, a big turbine will have a flat spot in the torque curve down low.
Saab has been using small low pressure turbos since the 1990's, at a time when BM was naturally aspirated, while Benz had Kompressors.
When I first drove Benz's 2.0T many years ago, I immediately wondered if Benz had purchased patents from Saab! Because the engines felt very similar. Not so the BM 2.0T.
The BM 2.0T is just a large turbo blade, and with the pros & cons that come with such a design; there is no magic.
Last edited by peteharvey; 11-04-15 at 08:35 AM.
11-04-15, 08:10 AM
#21
Lexus Test Driver
Originally Posted by peteharvey
When we press the accelerator, most engines will respond in a fraction of a second, so ignore response times.
Most people use the term lag to mean the time it takes the huge surge of torque to kick in, and with the BM 2.0T, the initial acceleration is only average, then after a while, it will then thrust!
You can feel the shape of the BM torque curve when you drive.
With the smaller turbos used in Benz & Lexus, the immediate thrust is more instant, but then the turbo is saturated & runs out of breath at hi rpm.
Life is a compromise, and presently we can't have it both ways, unless an electric motor is teamed up with a big heavy turbo blade.
In such case, the electric motor would accelerate the big heavy turbo blade quickly, while the big turbine would give high power at hi rpm's, without being saturated.
The small turbo design is more practical for eveyday driving, but runs out of breath at hi rpm, however mums & dads will rarely venture past 3000 rpm...
Most people use the term lag to mean the time it takes the huge surge of torque to kick in, and with the BM 2.0T, the initial acceleration is only average, then after a while, it will then thrust!
You can feel the shape of the BM torque curve when you drive.
With the smaller turbos used in Benz & Lexus, the immediate thrust is more instant, but then the turbo is saturated & runs out of breath at hi rpm.
Life is a compromise, and presently we can't have it both ways, unless an electric motor is teamed up with a big heavy turbo blade.
In such case, the electric motor would accelerate the big heavy turbo blade quickly, while the big turbine would give high power at hi rpm's, without being saturated.
The small turbo design is more practical for eveyday driving, but runs out of breath at hi rpm, however mums & dads will rarely venture past 3000 rpm...
11-04-15, 12:10 PM
#23
...the bmw n20 is the best turbo motor out there
whoever thinks the benz and the lexus motor is best in class,
then start to test drive cars and read about cars
the best motor for a turbo car in the world is the b58 motor 6 cylinder bmw motor now in the 340 and the 740
the 2nd best turbo motor is the n20 4 cylinder today i drove 120 miles highway around 70 mph average,
...
whoever thinks the benz and the lexus motor is best in class,
then start to test drive cars and read about cars
the best motor for a turbo car in the world is the b58 motor 6 cylinder bmw motor now in the 340 and the 740
the 2nd best turbo motor is the n20 4 cylinder today i drove 120 miles highway around 70 mph average,
...
Today, I am more mature and more experienced.
These days, I see that Brand 1 has pros and cons, Brand 2 has pros and cons, and Brand 3 has pros and cons etc.
These days, I see that they are all good, but in different ways.
What is great for John, may actually be a disaster for Jim.
At the end of the day, how good a product is, depends on the needs, wants, priorities, and tastes of the individual.
Thus, if an individual is into big turbos, and the pros and cons that come with such a design, then certainly go for the BM 2.0 turbo.
I have driven BM's 3.0 turbo many times before, and the same peaky torque curve associated with a large heavy turbine designed for greater maximum output.
I have not yet driven the new 3.0 turbo with a 4 liter equivalent output.
I have driven the E400 3.0 V6 Turbo, and it is a big peaky turbo.
Turbos used to be plagued by reliability problems, and lag problems.
Today, turbos are quite reliable, and engine response is quite instant.
However, the torque curve is still peaky as it takes time for the turbine to spool up, and the rush of torque to come in.
A larger and heavier turbine blade still must compromise size, and weight, for time to spool up for compression, to achieve greater maximum throughput.
Manufacturers have tried variable vane turbos, where the angle of the blades is variable, or automatically adjusts.
They have also tried twin turbos, where a smaller and lighter turbo propeller starts, then a larger and heavier turbine propeller takes over.
Electric motor assisted turbos are just around the corner, and the electric motor will spin/accelerate the bigger heavier turbo blade for more instant lower rpm torque, while a larger turbine blade can cope with more throughput.
Furthermore, noise, vibration and harshness has greatly improved with twin balance shafts, but a 2.0 turbo still can't match the creaminess of a six.
Down the track, you never know, they may make the 2.0 turbos as smooth as the six, but it is also possible that the 2.0 four cylinder turbo may never match the smoothness of a six; only time will tell...
.
Last edited by peteharvey; 11-04-15 at 12:27 PM.
11-05-15, 05:07 AM
#27
11-05-15, 05:32 AM
#28
i should have phrased it mainstream turbos
for all of us that are not buying 100,0000 porsches, or a mclaren hybrid,
the bmw b58 new motor in the 340 and 740 best in class
the n20 in the model line is the apple and apples comparison vs the lexus turbo
more hp
more useable torque with no lag
great integration with 8 speed
26 mpg combined or 28 with 328
can't be matched, look at article posted yesterday if you added 10 % to gas mileage and made it 24 because the team at car and driver got on the car, its still 10% less fuel efficient than technology from bmw that came out in 2015
in one word unacceptable, thats not thinking out of the box
the bmw b58 new motor in the 340 and 740 best in class
the n20 in the model line is the apple and apples comparison vs the lexus turbo
more hp
more useable torque with no lag
great integration with 8 speed
26 mpg combined or 28 with 328
can't be matched, look at article posted yesterday if you added 10 % to gas mileage and made it 24 because the team at car and driver got on the car, its still 10% less fuel efficient than technology from bmw that came out in 2015
in one word unacceptable, thats not thinking out of the box
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