3rd Generation IS350 NEEDS to be Forced Induction
02-25-12, 06:10 AM
#62
Which is pretty sad on BMWs part.
A 335i similar optioned was about $9000 more.
I revisited the pricing about a year ago and it had shrunk a bit (the auto on the BMW was no longer a couple grand) but the 328i optioned to match the base 350 was still more expensive by a little, and the 335 was still like $7000 more.
More expensive and less reliable, with far inferior interiors too? I dunno what BMW puts in peoples kool aid to keep selling cars.
That said, hp wise they certainly will need to bump the 250.... the sad thing is the 350 numbers still don't look too bad in comparison, especially given it's an engine for 2005 or so.... same hp (though a bit less TQ) than the new 335, only 14 less hp than the all-new caddy with slightly more displacement.
All Lexus would need to do is bump the 3.5 to a 3.7 or 3.8 and they'd probably be class leading again as they were when the 350 came out.
02-25-12, 06:17 AM
#63
Pretty impressed by Cadillac. Didn't think they'd be that high on the list.
What the hell happened to Infiniti!? They're almost at the bottom. I guess a lot of complaints are coming from that garbage 7AT. Tons of complaints on the G37 forums about it.
Absolutely. The ATS really grabbed my attention when I read they benchmarked the E46. That thing looks like it's going to handle really well. Not sure about the looks yet though.
I'm hoping we hear something about the 3IS soon. Maybe the NY auto show?
What the hell happened to Infiniti!? They're almost at the bottom. I guess a lot of complaints are coming from that garbage 7AT. Tons of complaints on the G37 forums about it.
Absolutely. The ATS really grabbed my attention when I read they benchmarked the E46. That thing looks like it's going to handle really well. Not sure about the looks yet though.
I'm hoping we hear something about the 3IS soon. Maybe the NY auto show?
02-25-12, 06:29 AM
#64
Just checked 2012 pricing:
IS350 with Lux with 18s, nav and park sensors-$43,503 invoice, $46,590 MSRP
328i optioned to match the 350 (have to add: Luxury Line, Parking package, premium pkg, sat radio, heated seats, paddle shifters, xenon headlights, and technology package)- $43,990 invoice, $47,845 MSRP
And the 350 still adds vented seats, power rear sunshade, and a few other things the BMW lacks...
But either way, the 350 embarrasses the 328 performance wise, and it's cheaper and far nicer inside.
I can't image why anyone buys a 328.... (even moreso the pre-2012 iteration that had even less power)
FWIW- $47,890 invoice and $52,045 for the 2012 335i similarly optioned... so now the 335 is "only" 4-5 grand more instead of 9.
IS350 with Lux with 18s, nav and park sensors-$43,503 invoice, $46,590 MSRP
328i optioned to match the 350 (have to add: Luxury Line, Parking package, premium pkg, sat radio, heated seats, paddle shifters, xenon headlights, and technology package)- $43,990 invoice, $47,845 MSRP
And the 350 still adds vented seats, power rear sunshade, and a few other things the BMW lacks...
But either way, the 350 embarrasses the 328 performance wise, and it's cheaper and far nicer inside.
I can't image why anyone buys a 328.... (even moreso the pre-2012 iteration that had even less power)
FWIW- $47,890 invoice and $52,045 for the 2012 335i similarly optioned... so now the 335 is "only" 4-5 grand more instead of 9.
Last edited by Kurtz; 02-25-12 at 06:34 AM.
02-25-12, 07:18 AM
#65
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If my bottom end had to be replaced at 67000 miles and it's an is250 weak *** engine......what makes you think they can get a FI engine right?
With the kind of issues I see posted in this place daily there is NO WAY they could handle the problems FI brings out.
With the kind of issues I see posted in this place daily there is NO WAY they could handle the problems FI brings out.
02-25-12, 09:59 AM
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At any rate, Toyota can certainly put out a great product if they put their minds to it. Their technical expertise is probably second only to GM, and they have much more money to draw on. IMHO, the focus for the next gen IS should be:
1. Weight reduction. The ATS and F30 get their performance boost not just from the engine, but the strict weight control policy.
2. Ditch the 4gr-fse. It's power output is shamed by modern normally aspirated 4 cylinder engines, and the carbon build-up issue is inexcuseable. Either they build an engine from the ground up for the base car, or use a detuned 3.5L. I am not aware of any turbo 4s in Toyota's repertoire. Maybe a a turbo diesel?
3. Increase the output of their upper model. I don't know how much more they can coax out of the 3.5L. If you look at GM, Benz and Chrysler, 300-320hp is about the max they are getting out of their DI 3.% V6s. Nissan bored the VQ out to 3.7 but ended up with NVH problems. Maybe add a hybrid boost or eAssist type gadget?
4. 8-speed tranny. This can go a long way towards getting better mileage and acceleration on the same car.
I disagree with using the 3gr-fse from Europe/ME. It has the same d4 DI system as the 4gr. Until they fix it, it has no business in North America.
02-25-12, 12:24 PM
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And that's what they did for the 4GS. They've added port injection to the 2.5L for the GS 250, which uses the 4GR-FSE engine, so now the 4GR has D-4S.
Last edited by raptor22; 02-25-12 at 12:27 PM.
02-25-12, 12:41 PM
#70
No they didn't. The 4GS GS250 still has D-4.
EDIT: I should specify that I know the press release for the GS250 said it was using D-4S, but I've seen the parts catalog for some countries and the GS250 still just had D-4. I believe it was a typo in the Lexus press release, unless some countries are getting D-4S and some aren't, which seems a bit unlikely since power figures stayed the same across the board.
Jeff
EDIT: I should specify that I know the press release for the GS250 said it was using D-4S, but I've seen the parts catalog for some countries and the GS250 still just had D-4. I believe it was a typo in the Lexus press release, unless some countries are getting D-4S and some aren't, which seems a bit unlikely since power figures stayed the same across the board.
Jeff
Last edited by Jeff Lange; 02-25-12 at 01:05 PM.
02-25-12, 03:31 PM
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No they didn't. The 4GS GS250 still has D-4.
EDIT: I should specify that I know the press release for the GS250 said it was using D-4S, but I've seen the parts catalog for some countries and the GS250 still just had D-4. I believe it was a typo in the Lexus press release, unless some countries are getting D-4S and some aren't, which seems a bit unlikely since power figures stayed the same across the board.
Jeff
EDIT: I should specify that I know the press release for the GS250 said it was using D-4S, but I've seen the parts catalog for some countries and the GS250 still just had D-4. I believe it was a typo in the Lexus press release, unless some countries are getting D-4S and some aren't, which seems a bit unlikely since power figures stayed the same across the board.
Jeff
it's not just the letter 'S' that's the typo, it actually stated 'direct and port injection', so someone goofed up big time. i think it was from the Lexus Europe press release.
02-25-12, 08:21 PM
#73
Everyone knows that the Supra Turbo is by far, one of Toyota's greatest achievements in the racing /sports car segment (notice I said "one of" as the 2000GT and LFA take center stage). So with that in mind:
Supra Turbo: Fast, Reliable, Durable, Mod Friendly, and Fun!
Supra Turbo: Built by Toyota.
Toyota: Builds Lexus.
Lexus: Builds IS models.
(if there will be) IS Turbo: Fast, Reliable, Durable, Mod Friendly, and Fun!
So you see, anyone that says that Toyota needs TOM's or Toyota doesn't know how to build Turbo motors, etc... is absolutely FALSE! Toyota is more than capable of doing it, if not already in the works...
I think the biggest problem (at least here in the US) is, that American drivers tend to be extremely abusive to their cars...stock or modified (research BMW M5 Euro spec vs. US spec and why they are different ). Toyota sees this as a potential threat (from a turbo application standpoint) to not only their reputation for reliability, but a greater financial threat. Let me explain.....so, one of the biggest reasons so many car makers have moved away from forced induction, is because of the reliability concerns that newer, more strict government regulations had on the engine design and fuel economy. For example, cast iron block motors were marvelous in preventing turbo engines from cracking, exploding, vibrating excessively, etc... because of their sheer strength, yet they were very heavy by design and caused fuel economy to suffer drastically because of their weight. When car makers tried turbo aluminum blocks, they began to notice cylinder wall fatigue, weak journals, heat issues, etc... So, most auto makers went the route of larger displacement and higher tech N/A applications. Look at the history; RX-7 to RX-8, 300ZX to 350Z, pretty much every single Toyota/Lexus car with the exception of their trucks, etc... It's not a matter of "when will they build it..." it's a matter of "why don't they build it...". Nissan (which I must give some credit to as they took the dive into this early) has had a fair share of problems with their latest GTR having twin turbo's and an aluminum block. Many tuners will tell you that, the only reason why the GTR engine hasn't been a complete disaster is because of the AWESOME ECU that Nissan has tuned to manage the engine down when it hits danger levels (before, the cast iron design would be able to tolerate misfires, detonation, etc... that the ECU would sometimes miss during boost spikes). However, most GTR tuners will tell you that the all aluminum design can be strengthened more from the factory...but more $$$. So, with that in mind....imagine what a new "Supra Turbo / IS Turbo" would be like in the hands of an American driver, who will most likely treat it like a MKIV Supra Turbo, and modify it and beat the ***** out of it thinking its a MKIV Supra Turbo....hmmmm...it's pretty clear why Toyota would rather stick to N/A. As far as BMW and such, BMW actually has spent alot of research and development time creating a safe engine block for their turbo applications. Google, BMW N54 engine lineup....its actually pretty....low weight, relatively cheap to manufacture, but extremely strong for forced induction application purposes and emissions legal.
So, overall...at least my take on it....is that Toyota doesn't want another "pedal stuck" recall on their hands because of boy-racers thinking they have a "very capable" turbo car in their hands. I think that if a new IS will be available, it will most likely be a higher displacement engine or same displacement with a revised engine tune to produce 15-20 more horses. Those days are over for over-engineering a turbo car because it is no longer a concern due to emissions regulations, weight regulations, material regulations, etc... Thanks to the U.S. government, we now have what we never wanted in sports cars. At least BMW is fighting back...
Supra Turbo: Fast, Reliable, Durable, Mod Friendly, and Fun!
Supra Turbo: Built by Toyota.
Toyota: Builds Lexus.
Lexus: Builds IS models.
(if there will be) IS Turbo: Fast, Reliable, Durable, Mod Friendly, and Fun!
So you see, anyone that says that Toyota needs TOM's or Toyota doesn't know how to build Turbo motors, etc... is absolutely FALSE! Toyota is more than capable of doing it, if not already in the works...
I think the biggest problem (at least here in the US) is, that American drivers tend to be extremely abusive to their cars...stock or modified (research BMW M5 Euro spec vs. US spec and why they are different ). Toyota sees this as a potential threat (from a turbo application standpoint) to not only their reputation for reliability, but a greater financial threat. Let me explain.....so, one of the biggest reasons so many car makers have moved away from forced induction, is because of the reliability concerns that newer, more strict government regulations had on the engine design and fuel economy. For example, cast iron block motors were marvelous in preventing turbo engines from cracking, exploding, vibrating excessively, etc... because of their sheer strength, yet they were very heavy by design and caused fuel economy to suffer drastically because of their weight. When car makers tried turbo aluminum blocks, they began to notice cylinder wall fatigue, weak journals, heat issues, etc... So, most auto makers went the route of larger displacement and higher tech N/A applications. Look at the history; RX-7 to RX-8, 300ZX to 350Z, pretty much every single Toyota/Lexus car with the exception of their trucks, etc... It's not a matter of "when will they build it..." it's a matter of "why don't they build it...". Nissan (which I must give some credit to as they took the dive into this early) has had a fair share of problems with their latest GTR having twin turbo's and an aluminum block. Many tuners will tell you that, the only reason why the GTR engine hasn't been a complete disaster is because of the AWESOME ECU that Nissan has tuned to manage the engine down when it hits danger levels (before, the cast iron design would be able to tolerate misfires, detonation, etc... that the ECU would sometimes miss during boost spikes). However, most GTR tuners will tell you that the all aluminum design can be strengthened more from the factory...but more $$$. So, with that in mind....imagine what a new "Supra Turbo / IS Turbo" would be like in the hands of an American driver, who will most likely treat it like a MKIV Supra Turbo, and modify it and beat the ***** out of it thinking its a MKIV Supra Turbo....hmmmm...it's pretty clear why Toyota would rather stick to N/A. As far as BMW and such, BMW actually has spent alot of research and development time creating a safe engine block for their turbo applications. Google, BMW N54 engine lineup....its actually pretty....low weight, relatively cheap to manufacture, but extremely strong for forced induction application purposes and emissions legal.
So, overall...at least my take on it....is that Toyota doesn't want another "pedal stuck" recall on their hands because of boy-racers thinking they have a "very capable" turbo car in their hands. I think that if a new IS will be available, it will most likely be a higher displacement engine or same displacement with a revised engine tune to produce 15-20 more horses. Those days are over for over-engineering a turbo car because it is no longer a concern due to emissions regulations, weight regulations, material regulations, etc... Thanks to the U.S. government, we now have what we never wanted in sports cars. At least BMW is fighting back...
02-26-12, 04:02 PM
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I think the biggest problem (at least here in the US) is, that American drivers tend to be extremely abusive to their cars...stock or modified (research BMW M5 Euro spec vs. US spec and why they are different ). Toyota sees this as a potential threat (from a turbo application standpoint) to not only their reputation for reliability, but a greater financial threat. Let me explain.....so, one of the biggest reasons so many car makers have moved away from forced induction, is because of the reliability concerns that newer, more strict government regulations had on the engine design and fuel economy. For example, cast iron block motors were marvelous in preventing turbo engines from cracking, exploding, vibrating excessively, etc... because of their sheer strength, yet they were very heavy by design and caused fuel economy to suffer drastically because of their weight. When car makers tried turbo aluminum blocks, they began to notice cylinder wall fatigue, weak journals, heat issues, etc... So, most auto makers went the route of larger displacement and higher tech N/A applications. Look at the history; RX-7 to RX-8, 300ZX to 350Z, pretty much every single Toyota/Lexus car with the exception of their trucks, etc... It's not a matter of "when will they build it..." it's a matter of "why don't they build it...". Nissan (which I must give some credit to as they took the dive into this early) has had a fair share of problems with their latest GTR having twin turbo's and an aluminum block. Many tuners will tell you that, the only reason why the GTR engine hasn't been a complete disaster is because of the AWESOME ECU that Nissan has tuned to manage the engine down when it hits danger levels (before, the cast iron design would be able to tolerate misfires, detonation, etc... that the ECU would sometimes miss during boost spikes). However, most GTR tuners will tell you that the all aluminum design can be strengthened more from the factory...but more $$$. So, with that in mind....imagine what a new "Supra Turbo / IS Turbo" would be like in the hands of an American driver, who will most likely treat it like a MKIV Supra Turbo, and modify it and beat the ***** out of it thinking its a MKIV Supra Turbo....hmmmm...it's pretty clear why Toyota would rather stick to N/A. As far as BMW and such, BMW actually has spent alot of research and development time creating a safe engine block for their turbo applications. Google, BMW N54 engine lineup....its actually pretty....low weight, relatively cheap to manufacture, but extremely strong for forced induction application purposes and emissions legal.
The fact is that CAFE regulations are getting stricter and stricter. Toyota has to improve fuel economy, and improve power if they want to stay competitive. Currently, turbo 4s are an excellent solution for this, and low pressure turbo 4 with around 250hp/250ft-lbs would be an excellent solution for the base IS2xx. I do agree that slapping twin turbos on the current 2gr or 4gr is a very bad idea. These engines were never designed with forced induction in mind.
Alternatively, toyota may just axe the 2.5L, make the base IS a hybrid and raise the price of the 350 to force people in to the more fuel efficient car. If anyone can build a "performance hybrid", it's toyota.
