3rd Generation IS350 NEEDS to be Forced Induction
08-03-09, 02:34 PM
#1
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Thread Starter
3rd Generation IS350 NEEDS to be Forced Induction
Ok sorry after reading the supercharged IS thread i wanted to post but my topic would have been soo offtopic i thought it deserved its own thread.
So here is my rant:
As it stands
BMW- 335 twin turbo, M3- v8
Audi- B9 S4 turbo/supercharged while rs4- v8
while
Lexus- IS350 NA v6, IS-F- v8
Lexus Line up should read: IS300, IS35, IS-F.... read below for more info
Lexus is doin something wrong here, they, need and im hoping they will, offer a turbo/supercharged IS350 for the next generation.
Companies in todays climate sensitive world need to stop offering larger displacement engines and start focusing on offering forced induction, which is wat they seem to be heading towards
My prediction is this, 2012 IS350 will be supercharged. They can leave the F as is, big heavy V8, but the IS350 neeeeeeds to be forced induction.
I know Lexus/Toyotas main thing is reliability, and by offering forced induction on their cars they will be inticing people to start tempering with their ecu's. This I think is the main reason why our ecus are so encrypted. By forcing the people to keep the car stock (as we have all seen, no performace mods for our car) this will maintain their reliablity ratings.
But i think Lexus is made a few big mistakes. heres why
A. Lexus needed the IS-F. Its a low volume car but the image it sets is wat is much more needed. An uberfast sport sedan that should have been the wet dream of many a boy racer. IMO they made a mistake, well maybe it wasnt really a mistake as it was one guys passionate pet project, But the car should have been made to beats the pants out of its competitors, much like the GTR or the RS6 is doin.
B. Now that they have the IS-F, they have 3 (soon to be 4 with the hybrid IS) sport seadns in the IS family. I propse the following changes:
IS250: instead of the 250 offer the middle east version; the IS300 in its place. It carrys the name of previous generation car which imo was a pretty bold step for lexus in the first place. The car can b kept naturally aspirated with that encrytped as hell ecu. This would cater towards mainly towards women (25-40 year olds) or guys that just want a comfortable convienient reliable car to take them from pt A-B. heavy tuning wouldnt be a priority, maybe just some wheels for asthetics at the most. In order to save money Make the car a 3.5l that is available in the es350 (not the IS350) yet keep the IS300 moniker. This would keep the reliablity factor that has made Lexus/Toyota so famous to being with. you want a sports sedan with reliability, but an IS300.
IS350 (Id ditch Fsport, integrate TOM'S fully into lexus but without the the TOM'S name and just call it an IS35) should (have) come with forced induction and a not so encripted ECU. This would relate to that younger hot blooded male market that want the luxury and reliability of a lexus, but want a car that they could treat as their pet project and turn into one badass vehicle. Money spent to satisfaction ration would have been GREAT. This would have enticed even more people away from BMW , Mercedes while further ruining Infiniti. This could and should have been the supra for the 21st century. The Supra is legendary, the current IS atleast never will be.
IS-F can/should stay N/A V8, I would have made it atleast 475hp car and not a 400hp car. This car would cater towards those will a higher disposable income and to the dudes in their midlife crises, who again, want lexus reliability ad luxury and wont mod their ride, but by keeping it semi moddable (similar to the current situation) it would also appeal to those younger guys/or mod friendly people with cash to blow, who want that v8 grand tourer feel to their car but want that seriously tuned ***** to the wall quick ride.
I think they would have attraced a much larger audiance with this car. I know most people dont care about performace and tuning, but you only need one car in the IS line up, that would b the IS300.
They can do the same and expand the GS line up: GS300, GS460 GS35 and GS-F
I know lexus will build the GS-F which hopefully they will not make the same mistake they did with the IS-F but im hopeful because theyll be droppin the LF-A engine in their so thats gonna be a major plus.
In short:
By doin all this, they'd
a. save a bit of money (lose the 250 6 cylinder engine)
b.keep fuel economy and reliabitly up with the IS300/GS300/LS300,
c.cater to the performance oriented/mod friendly crowd with the IS35/GS35
d. keep the old farts happy with the GS460, LS460
e. Attract those"my car is the greatest facotry made car with: IS-F, GS-F, LS-F(same engine as GS-F) and the upcoming LF-A
f. None of this would make sense without the upcoming high volume a3/1 series competitor that is wayyyyyyy over due. The above mentioned cars will inturn boost sales for this car. At the end of the day selling cars has ALOT to do with image and peoples perception. Yes being associated with Toyota is a great thing, but non lexus owners view this as a negative. how better to change their opinions than with cars that would tear all the other ones new a-holes (and with a bang, GTR style). Not to mention, markets like china, india, Europe all have crazy taxes on engine sizes, lack of space, so this car in the line up is more than necessary and lexus are realising this very slowly.
Oh and we cant forget the hybrids, so throw in one of those for each line up for fuel economy in the lower end of the car line up, and silent driving for the GS/LS. They hit the nail on the head with hybrid line up but just need it to trickle it down into the smaller cars.
I hope this doesnt get moved to the car section, but i wanted to keep this just about the IS, but i felt i had to include a plan for the rest of the line inorder to make this plan more feasible and make more business sense
End rant (turned into more of a Future strategy plan instead, lost steam half thru and started thinking realisticly lol)
I dunno lets hear what u guys think, Mods please dont move this, I wanna keep it an IS discussion
So here is my rant:
As it stands
BMW- 335 twin turbo, M3- v8
Audi- B9 S4 turbo/supercharged while rs4- v8
while
Lexus- IS350 NA v6, IS-F- v8
Lexus Line up should read: IS300, IS35, IS-F.... read below for more info
Lexus is doin something wrong here, they, need and im hoping they will, offer a turbo/supercharged IS350 for the next generation.
Companies in todays climate sensitive world need to stop offering larger displacement engines and start focusing on offering forced induction, which is wat they seem to be heading towards
My prediction is this, 2012 IS350 will be supercharged. They can leave the F as is, big heavy V8, but the IS350 neeeeeeds to be forced induction.
I know Lexus/Toyotas main thing is reliability, and by offering forced induction on their cars they will be inticing people to start tempering with their ecu's. This I think is the main reason why our ecus are so encrypted. By forcing the people to keep the car stock (as we have all seen, no performace mods for our car) this will maintain their reliablity ratings.
But i think Lexus is made a few big mistakes. heres why
A. Lexus needed the IS-F. Its a low volume car but the image it sets is wat is much more needed. An uberfast sport sedan that should have been the wet dream of many a boy racer. IMO they made a mistake, well maybe it wasnt really a mistake as it was one guys passionate pet project, But the car should have been made to beats the pants out of its competitors, much like the GTR or the RS6 is doin.
B. Now that they have the IS-F, they have 3 (soon to be 4 with the hybrid IS) sport seadns in the IS family. I propse the following changes:
IS250: instead of the 250 offer the middle east version; the IS300 in its place. It carrys the name of previous generation car which imo was a pretty bold step for lexus in the first place. The car can b kept naturally aspirated with that encrytped as hell ecu. This would cater towards mainly towards women (25-40 year olds) or guys that just want a comfortable convienient reliable car to take them from pt A-B. heavy tuning wouldnt be a priority, maybe just some wheels for asthetics at the most. In order to save money Make the car a 3.5l that is available in the es350 (not the IS350) yet keep the IS300 moniker. This would keep the reliablity factor that has made Lexus/Toyota so famous to being with. you want a sports sedan with reliability, but an IS300.
IS350 (Id ditch Fsport, integrate TOM'S fully into lexus but without the the TOM'S name and just call it an IS35) should (have) come with forced induction and a not so encripted ECU. This would relate to that younger hot blooded male market that want the luxury and reliability of a lexus, but want a car that they could treat as their pet project and turn into one badass vehicle. Money spent to satisfaction ration would have been GREAT. This would have enticed even more people away from BMW , Mercedes while further ruining Infiniti. This could and should have been the supra for the 21st century. The Supra is legendary, the current IS atleast never will be.
IS-F can/should stay N/A V8, I would have made it atleast 475hp car and not a 400hp car. This car would cater towards those will a higher disposable income and to the dudes in their midlife crises, who again, want lexus reliability ad luxury and wont mod their ride, but by keeping it semi moddable (similar to the current situation) it would also appeal to those younger guys/or mod friendly people with cash to blow, who want that v8 grand tourer feel to their car but want that seriously tuned ***** to the wall quick ride.
I think they would have attraced a much larger audiance with this car. I know most people dont care about performace and tuning, but you only need one car in the IS line up, that would b the IS300.
They can do the same and expand the GS line up: GS300, GS460 GS35 and GS-F
I know lexus will build the GS-F which hopefully they will not make the same mistake they did with the IS-F but im hopeful because theyll be droppin the LF-A engine in their so thats gonna be a major plus.
In short:
By doin all this, they'd
a. save a bit of money (lose the 250 6 cylinder engine)
b.keep fuel economy and reliabitly up with the IS300/GS300/LS300,
c.cater to the performance oriented/mod friendly crowd with the IS35/GS35
d. keep the old farts happy with the GS460, LS460
e. Attract those"my car is the greatest facotry made car with: IS-F, GS-F, LS-F(same engine as GS-F) and the upcoming LF-A
f. None of this would make sense without the upcoming high volume a3/1 series competitor that is wayyyyyyy over due. The above mentioned cars will inturn boost sales for this car. At the end of the day selling cars has ALOT to do with image and peoples perception. Yes being associated with Toyota is a great thing, but non lexus owners view this as a negative. how better to change their opinions than with cars that would tear all the other ones new a-holes (and with a bang, GTR style). Not to mention, markets like china, india, Europe all have crazy taxes on engine sizes, lack of space, so this car in the line up is more than necessary and lexus are realising this very slowly.
Oh and we cant forget the hybrids, so throw in one of those for each line up for fuel economy in the lower end of the car line up, and silent driving for the GS/LS. They hit the nail on the head with hybrid line up but just need it to trickle it down into the smaller cars.
I hope this doesnt get moved to the car section, but i wanted to keep this just about the IS, but i felt i had to include a plan for the rest of the line inorder to make this plan more feasible and make more business sense
End rant (turned into more of a Future strategy plan instead, lost steam half thru and started thinking realisticly lol)
I dunno lets hear what u guys think, Mods please dont move this, I wanna keep it an IS discussion
Last edited by ndk83; 08-03-09 at 04:09 PM.
08-03-09, 02:36 PM
#2
Pole Position
Thread Starter
hahaha wow thats long, didnt expect to be. sorry for the long post especially since Im not the most entertaining writer, but i hope u take the time to read it, IMO i have alot of good opinions lol
I wanna add one more thing: Lexus needs to drop or heavily improve the F-Sport (incorporate TOM'S instead) They cannot afford to ignore the tuner market like that,
I wanna add one more thing: Lexus needs to drop or heavily improve the F-Sport (incorporate TOM'S instead) They cannot afford to ignore the tuner market like that,
Last edited by ndk83; 08-03-09 at 04:06 PM.
08-03-09, 02:42 PM
#3
Reliability and Performance is a good smoothie to blend...but can never be perfect for everyone's taste..
Good read though, but the Euro Market seems to be going the route of FI, helping them to make fairly fuel efficient cars, but the cost is reliability. For American cars, most of them were just big engines that gobbled up fuel, and weren't reliable. The Japanese market has capabilities of FI, but would rather keep reliability. When they can reliably boost cars, which Lexus has never done from the factory, they may attract people that were into the 335's, but want something that is more reliable. Until then though, be happy that you only have to take the car in for scheduled maintenance.
Good read though, but the Euro Market seems to be going the route of FI, helping them to make fairly fuel efficient cars, but the cost is reliability. For American cars, most of them were just big engines that gobbled up fuel, and weren't reliable. The Japanese market has capabilities of FI, but would rather keep reliability. When they can reliably boost cars, which Lexus has never done from the factory, they may attract people that were into the 335's, but want something that is more reliable. Until then though, be happy that you only have to take the car in for scheduled maintenance.
08-03-09, 02:49 PM
#5
Pole Position
Thread Starter
^^ Yes and No. I agree with out FI reduces reliablity, and thats prob why lexus wont go that route.
BUT its Toyota for effs sake, if they can make the most reliable NA car , they can focus their energy towards a "more reliable" FI car. Kaizen manufacturing can be put to the test with this task. Also most people that tune their engines kinda know they are throwing reliability out the window
Save money by offering less engine choices, offer highly volume cars and increase their efforts towards reliability as per the standards of the previous years, for both FI and NA cars. Thats the way to go
BUT its Toyota for effs sake, if they can make the most reliable NA car , they can focus their energy towards a "more reliable" FI car. Kaizen manufacturing can be put to the test with this task. Also most people that tune their engines kinda know they are throwing reliability out the window
Save money by offering less engine choices, offer highly volume cars and increase their efforts towards reliability as per the standards of the previous years, for both FI and NA cars. Thats the way to go
Last edited by ndk83; 08-03-09 at 02:54 PM.
08-03-09, 02:51 PM
#6
Not here for bashing but:
I think the IS250 should stay lol, not everyone cares about the performance.
The IS25/IS35 idea is not much of a big deal, IS350 is much more organized with the other lexuses. and it's a TOM's idea, not Lexus.
F-Sport should stay, because it's familiar with the ISF, lol.
As I said before, enough with your TOM's talk, it's nothing that special IMO
I think the IS250 should stay lol, not everyone cares about the performance.
The IS25/IS35 idea is not much of a big deal, IS350 is much more organized with the other lexuses. and it's a TOM's idea, not Lexus.
F-Sport should stay, because it's familiar with the ISF, lol.
As I said before, enough with your TOM's talk, it's nothing that special IMO
08-03-09, 03:04 PM
#7
Pole Position
Thread Starter
Not here for bashing but:
I think the IS250 should stay lol, not everyone cares about the performance.
The IS25/IS35 idea is not much of a big deal, IS350 is much more organized with the other lexuses. and it's a TOM's idea, not Lexus.
F-Sport should stay, because it's familiar with the ISF, lol.
As I said before, enough with your TOM's talk, it's nothing that special IMO
I think the IS250 should stay lol, not everyone cares about the performance.
The IS25/IS35 idea is not much of a big deal, IS350 is much more organized with the other lexuses. and it's a TOM's idea, not Lexus.
F-Sport should stay, because it's familiar with the ISF, lol.
As I said before, enough with your TOM's talk, it's nothing that special IMO
BMW have M, Merceds Has AMG, Audi has RS, all were seperate companies that ran the manufacturers race cars. Manufacturer became very impressed and bought them out and integrated their work into their line up. TOM'S has toyota/lexus racing hertiage. If they were give access to Toyotas budget things would be very very different. TOM'S though, is still the best and most extensive lexus tuner. Hence my huge fascination with them
Additional I think Lexus and TOM'S paths are diverging right now. TOM'S is still very conservative, and Lexus/Toyota now under the leadership of the new president will be udergoing a change.
Lexus needs to buy out TOM'S encroprate them into their future strategy inorder to not diverge any more, they need to be on the same page, which i dont think is happening, as evident by the lack of IS-F mods from TOM'S. Id hate to see TOM'S go to schit, it would b a damn shame. Besides F-Sport is an american think, not a japanese Lexus/toyota headquarter thing. TOM'S is the way to go and i think they will...eventually....
Last edited by ndk83; 08-03-09 at 03:10 PM.
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08-03-09, 03:23 PM
#8
^^ Yes and No. I agree with out FI reduces reliablity, and thats prob why lexus wont go that route.
BUT its Toyota for effs sake, if they can make the most reliable NA car , they can focus their energy towards a "more reliable" FI car. Kaizen manufacturing can be put to the test with this task. Also most people that tune their engines kinda know they are throwing reliability out the window
Save money by offering less engine choices, offer highly volume cars and increase their efforts towards reliability as per the standards of the previous years, for both FI and NA cars. Thats the way to go
BUT its Toyota for effs sake, if they can make the most reliable NA car , they can focus their energy towards a "more reliable" FI car. Kaizen manufacturing can be put to the test with this task. Also most people that tune their engines kinda know they are throwing reliability out the window
Save money by offering less engine choices, offer highly volume cars and increase their efforts towards reliability as per the standards of the previous years, for both FI and NA cars. Thats the way to go
08-03-09, 03:40 PM
#10
Not trying to get into this much, but why all of a sudden are people bashing the 350. I'm reading more and more threads on FI vs N/A and its getting a bit tiresome. The 3.5L V6 is a gem of an engine. The fact that it holds its own against a twin turbo'ed 335i and supercharged S4 is amazing. Not to mention the fuel economy isn't bad considering the performance that comes from it. Where has all the love gone for the 350???
Yes I agree the current trend is smaller displacement engines (ie Ford's EcoBoost engines, GM's upcoming turbo'ed fours) with FI and DI for that matter, but I don't think a volume 350 or replacement with FI is necessary right now. I honestly believe the current 350 would just go up in displacement like the G35/37 did.
I just don't think Toyota is "there" yet. I'm sure they have something up their sleeve to be competitive, and if need be they will make an engine coupled with FI to best suit the needs of CAFE standards and customers alike. I'm not opposed to a FI IS, i'm just saying we should appreciate what the Lexus IS offers now: Power and reliability wrapped in a handsome package. Just my $0.02
(You know what I'm waiting for?!? How about a IS450h! Same powertrain as the GS450h rated around 340hp, but in an IS, that'll get her moving! haha)
Yes I agree the current trend is smaller displacement engines (ie Ford's EcoBoost engines, GM's upcoming turbo'ed fours) with FI and DI for that matter, but I don't think a volume 350 or replacement with FI is necessary right now. I honestly believe the current 350 would just go up in displacement like the G35/37 did.
I just don't think Toyota is "there" yet. I'm sure they have something up their sleeve to be competitive, and if need be they will make an engine coupled with FI to best suit the needs of CAFE standards and customers alike. I'm not opposed to a FI IS, i'm just saying we should appreciate what the Lexus IS offers now: Power and reliability wrapped in a handsome package. Just my $0.02
(You know what I'm waiting for?!? How about a IS450h! Same powertrain as the GS450h rated around 340hp, but in an IS, that'll get her moving!
haha)
08-03-09, 03:48 PM
#11
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Thread Starter
You say that people that tune their engines know that they are throwing reliability out of the window. Then let people tune their cars on their own. The cars are so hard to tune though because of the ecu because they don't want to deal with people tuning it and then trying to go back to the dealership with problems. The engine already has such a high compression ratio to get better mileage/performance too.
The Lexus market is mostly older people looking for conservative cars, with the younger crowds getting the IS line, and IS-F. Lexus is just dipping their feet into the performance sedan market though with the IS-F, and with the soon release of the LF-A. Don't push them to go diving into a market and produce cars that haven't been thoroughly tested and end up getting recall after recall. It's like electronics, Sony although they may come out with products after their competitors, is it no wonder that people have had to get their Sony products serviced less than other brands? Perfection takes time. Be patient. haha
Fpsort is an American Lexus thing, they do not offer it in japan. Plus there is no F sport racing team, they dont have the technical racing history know how, hence the lack of performance parts offered. Exhaust is HKS, Intake is a JOe Z adaptation. Plus not to mention they dont have access to that Toyota Corp budget. They have access to toyota N.A. market budget only i think, I could be wrong though. But neverless they don't have the racing heritage
08-03-09, 03:52 PM
#12
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Thread Starter
how about that twin turbo(?) hybrid 3.5l engine they had in that toyota concept car that was supposed to be the next supra??? That would be badasssss
btw they are actually releasing a hybrid IS in europe only, not sure if alot of people caught that news
08-03-09, 05:13 PM
#14
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If, and I do me IF, Lexus went FI, they would likely drop the 3.5L down to a 3.0L and the HP output would likely be very similar to the current IS 350 (granted it could be modded). Now here is why I think that.
The line up would be unbalanced. You would have the 250 (or 300) pulling prob 200-240 HP, the 350 FI would pull prop 350-375 (if done right), then you have the ISF pulling (currently) 400. This would put the 350 and the F too close together and futher shrink the F market. So, now they would be forced to up the F to at least 450. Yes, 450 is nice, but this level sports sedan is a very niche market with a lot of competition. With fuel economy a rising concern, the sales for the F would likely decline and Lexus might pull the F. We all remember the Supra. Great car, but the market was way too small and that = low profit; let's not forget, Lexus is still trying to make money.
All-in-all, this is just not practical from a marketing perspective. "Tuners" make up a very small portion of the Lexus sales. At 40k ish for the current 350, the market is geared towards working professionals that make a decent salary, not tuners. If Lexus tries too hard to push into the Tuner market, the MSRP will go up and the IS will start to cost the same as the 3 series. A huge marketing advantage for the IS is that it is a great car that costs less than BMW and MB. If you rise the price, those people that chose Lexus over BMW for the cost savings might start to reconsider.
The line up would be unbalanced. You would have the 250 (or 300) pulling prob 200-240 HP, the 350 FI would pull prop 350-375 (if done right), then you have the ISF pulling (currently) 400. This would put the 350 and the F too close together and futher shrink the F market. So, now they would be forced to up the F to at least 450. Yes, 450 is nice, but this level sports sedan is a very niche market with a lot of competition. With fuel economy a rising concern, the sales for the F would likely decline and Lexus might pull the F. We all remember the Supra. Great car, but the market was way too small and that = low profit; let's not forget, Lexus is still trying to make money.
All-in-all, this is just not practical from a marketing perspective. "Tuners" make up a very small portion of the Lexus sales. At 40k ish for the current 350, the market is geared towards working professionals that make a decent salary, not tuners. If Lexus tries too hard to push into the Tuner market, the MSRP will go up and the IS will start to cost the same as the 3 series. A huge marketing advantage for the IS is that it is a great car that costs less than BMW and MB. If you rise the price, those people that chose Lexus over BMW for the cost savings might start to reconsider.
08-03-09, 05:15 PM
#15
Lexus Fanatic
umm... 300hp in a street car isnt enough? our 350's are pretty quick, 10yrs ago only ferrari/lambo/porsh went this fast... sure the 250's could use another 40hp but the 350's are actually fine the way they are...
our cars are NOT sport cars
our cars are NOT sport cars