Would $10k hybrid tax credit kill the GS350
02-20-12, 11:23 AM
#1
Lexus Champion
Thread Starter
Would $10k hybrid tax credit kill the GS350
I read that Obama wants to substantially raise the hybrid and AFV tax credits. The idea would be that the $2500-7500 credit on plug in hybrids would jump to 10 k and be appicable to standard hybrids like fhe GS450h.
At that point the GS450h would be less than a GS350.
What do you guys think of this?
My concerns:
1) Resale value of existing cars will drop by 10k instantly
2) GS350 will be dead as a model (not good for people who just bought them)
3) It pisses me off that tax payers money is being spent so wealthy middle class people can get $10k off a Lexus GS450h or for that matter a Volt, Tesla, Fisker, Escalade Hybrid, or any other such expensive luxury vehicle.
At that point the GS450h would be less than a GS350.
What do you guys think of this?
My concerns:
1) Resale value of existing cars will drop by 10k instantly
2) GS350 will be dead as a model (not good for people who just bought them)
3) It pisses me off that tax payers money is being spent so wealthy middle class people can get $10k off a Lexus GS450h or for that matter a Volt, Tesla, Fisker, Escalade Hybrid, or any other such expensive luxury vehicle.
Last edited by *Batman*; 02-20-12 at 01:41 PM.
02-20-12, 11:33 AM
#2
While I share your thoughts in #3, I must admit that a GS450h that costs less than GS350 would make me feel good about waiting 
I would be VERY surprised if that happened though. (I thought the 10k was being proposed for plug in cars - not the hybrids?)
I would be VERY surprised if that happened though. (I thought the 10k was being proposed for plug in cars - not the hybrids?)
02-20-12, 01:39 PM
#4
Lexus Champion
Thread Starter
02-20-12, 01:53 PM
#5
Lexus Champion
Touch up on your facts. This credit isn't just applied to 'Luxury hybrids'. The Prius would benefit the most from this IMO. Which is good for Toyota sales, which is good for Lexus.
02-20-12, 02:23 PM
#6
though from a administrative point of view i think that's kind of silly. credits on cars like prius, sure, but on cars like gsh, where gas mileage is actually still not any better than some more economic cars, that doesn't make sense
02-20-12, 02:43 PM
#7
I read that Obama wants to substantially raise the hybrid and AFV tax credits. The idea would be that the $2500-7500 credit on plug in hybrids would jump to 10 k and be appicable to standard hybrids like fhe GS450h.
At that point the GS450h would be less than a GS350.
What do you guys think of this?
My concerns:
1) Resale value of existing cars will drop by 10k instantly
2) GS350 will be dead as a model (not good for people who just bought them)
3) It pisses me off that tax payers money is being spent so wealthy middle class people can get $10k off a Lexus GS450h or for that matter a Volt, Tesla, Fisker, Escalade Hybrid, or any other such expensive luxury vehicle.
At that point the GS450h would be less than a GS350.
What do you guys think of this?
My concerns:
1) Resale value of existing cars will drop by 10k instantly
2) GS350 will be dead as a model (not good for people who just bought them)
3) It pisses me off that tax payers money is being spent so wealthy middle class people can get $10k off a Lexus GS450h or for that matter a Volt, Tesla, Fisker, Escalade Hybrid, or any other such expensive luxury vehicle.
The way it works is the EV miles right now... hence Volt getting 3x more tax credit compared to Prius PHV.
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02-20-12, 05:15 PM
#9
Guest
Posts: n/a
What about the competition?
M35h hybrid
BMW 5 series ActiveHybrid
Audi A6 hybrid
etc etc
Some people have no interest in hybrids tax credit or not. What we have seen in the past is a tax credit for a hybrid is usually temporary and helps with sales, especially those hybrids that need the help as people are not really drawn to them. The tax credit is main motivation. For those that want a hybrid the tax credit is just icing on the cake, they were going to get one anyway
The other thing is the GS 450h will only be 10% of GS sales which isn't mentioned either so it could never "kill" the GS 350. It is a very limited production car.
smh
M35h hybrid
BMW 5 series ActiveHybrid
Audi A6 hybrid
etc etc
Some people have no interest in hybrids tax credit or not. What we have seen in the past is a tax credit for a hybrid is usually temporary and helps with sales, especially those hybrids that need the help as people are not really drawn to them. The tax credit is main motivation. For those that want a hybrid the tax credit is just icing on the cake, they were going to get one anyway
The other thing is the GS 450h will only be 10% of GS sales which isn't mentioned either
so it could never "kill" the GS 350. It is a very limited production car. smh
02-20-12, 06:54 PM
#10
Lead Lap
Is this tax credit phased out based on income? A la the child credit....
Just another reason to vote for ANYONE else.
Just another reason to vote for ANYONE else.
02-20-12, 07:47 PM
#11
I'm surprised I"m the first to bring this up - don't ya'll think that if it happens (probably won't) that Lexus and others would simply raise the list price to a point where the tax credit would still put the sale price of the car in a slot that Lexus wants it in to meet a specific supply and demand model?
02-20-12, 11:09 PM
#12
They aren't and it isn't going to happen for all the reasons you stated.
So a lot of you are getting riled up over nothing or by a straw man.
There's a carpload of hybrids on the road already, there's no need to provide an incentive to buy them anymore.
Plug-in and electric; yes those have the potential to be subsidized (both on the front and back end apparently).
So a lot of you are getting riled up over nothing or by a straw man.
There's a carpload of hybrids on the road already, there's no need to provide an incentive to buy them anymore.
Plug-in and electric; yes those have the potential to be subsidized (both on the front and back end apparently).
02-21-12, 06:06 AM
#13
They aren't and it isn't going to happen for all the reasons you stated.
So a lot of you are getting riled up over nothing or by a straw man.
There's a carpload of hybrids on the road already, there's no need to provide an incentive to buy them anymore.
Plug-in and electric; yes those have the potential to be subsidized (both on the front and back end apparently).
So a lot of you are getting riled up over nothing or by a straw man.
There's a carpload of hybrids on the road already, there's no need to provide an incentive to buy them anymore.
Plug-in and electric; yes those have the potential to be subsidized (both on the front and back end apparently).
The point of this is that I would put nothing past him in the way of additional tax incentives if he thinks he can change the world.
02-21-12, 07:59 AM
#14
Guest
Posts: n/a
They aren't and it isn't going to happen for all the reasons you stated.
So a lot of you are getting riled up over nothing or by a straw man.
There's a carpload of hybrids on the road already, there's no need to provide an incentive to buy them anymore.
Plug-in and electric; yes those have the potential to be subsidized (both on the front and back end apparently).
So a lot of you are getting riled up over nothing or by a straw man.
There's a carpload of hybrids on the road already, there's no need to provide an incentive to buy them anymore.
Plug-in and electric; yes those have the potential to be subsidized (both on the front and back end apparently).
Its so hard to find a well thought out discussion when you do find out its utterly refreshing. FYI to refresh memories or if one wasn't aware, there were tax credits for hybrids during the BUSH administration when the RX 400h/GS 450h debuted in 2006/2007 and was eligible for I believe a $2,000 or so credit that got chopped up every year until it was gone. The credit had no affect on perception or resale values.
I really hate to turn this into a political discussion, but the thread is in fact based around politics anyway. Along the same lines though, this is not a carte blanch bashing of Obama, but the reality is that he is doing things that are very manipulative of the free enterprise system under the guise that it's good for us. He spent two years preaching about a balanced budget but he doesn't think it applies to his administration - because his agendas warrant increasing our deficit spending.
The point of this is that I would put nothing past him in the way of additional tax incentives if he thinks he can change the world.
The point of this is that I would put nothing past him in the way of additional tax incentives if he thinks he can change the world.
The Volt concept debuted January 2007, R&D was done well before that, yet you would think Obama told GM "Make this car" the way people state it.
Its utterly hilarious. Were you also complaining when Reagan destroyed the budget, lied about having a balanced budget and gave us the worse deficits in history? Were you in arms when Bush took a surplus and turned it into the biggest deficits in history past Reagan? Or are you another person who is acting like the United States problems began in 2008 when Obama was elected? I completely agree the budget is out of control and so is spending but he has a Congress completely unwilling to meet him anywhere near halfway.
I don't like Obama much FYI but if one is going to thrash him, get it right. For example, did Obama continue many of Bush's policies though he promised "Change".?Yes he did which is a sham and a shame.
Here is info on the previous 2006- credit for everyone to refresh memories
http://www.hybridcars.com/federal-in...6-summary.html
Hybrid Tax Credits: 2006 Summary
PUBLISHED MARCH 23, 2007
Congress Short-Circuits Hybrid Tax Credits—for Some
Do you remember how excited you were when you bought your hybrid last year? Savings at the pumps, clean emissions, cool technology—and a couple of thousand bucks snatched back from Uncle Sam’s fists. At least that’s what the salesperson promised, right? In most cases, the good folks at the IRS will deliver on that promise but—depending on what you bought—be prepared for a gotcha.
The Vanishing Toyota Tax Credit
Since the introduction of the 2004 Prius, Toyota has dominated the hybrid market, selling about 80 percent of the hybrids on the road. Apparently to prevent Toyota from running even further away with the hybrid market, the architects of the 2005 Energy Bill—the piece of legislation granting the hybrid tax credits—set a limit of 60,000 tax credits per carmaker.
Toyota hit that mark in June 2006. There’s a complex, multi-tiered phase-out period, but to keep it simple, here’s how it will affect your 2006 taxes:
If you bought a Prius before Oct. 1, 2006, you are entitled to the full tax credit of $3,150.
If you bought a Prius on or after Oct. 1, 2006, your tax credit is half that amount, or $1,575.
The tax credit is slowly vanishing for these Toyota and Lexus hybrids as well:
Toyota Highlander and Camry Hybrids
Before Oct. 1: $2,600
After Oct. 1: $1,300
Lexus RX 400h
Before Oct. 1: $2,200
After Oct. 1: $1,100
Lexus GS 450h
Before Oct. 1: $1,550
After Oct. 1: $775
No other carmaker reached the 60,000 cap in 2006, so qualifying buyers of non-Toyota hybrids will receive full credits. Honda is likely to reach the limit by the end of this year, and Ford by the end of 2008. General Motors and Nissan, the only other carmakers currently with hybrids in the American market, are a few years away.
See a complete list of hybrid tax credits.
The Other Shoe Drops
If that wasn’t complicated enough, brace for a bit more bad news from the taxman: Your hybrid vehicle tax credit will be substantially reduced or eliminated if you are subject to the Alternative Minimum Tax, or AMT.
The AMT dates back to the Tax Reform Act of 1969. The goal of the legislation was to prevent millionaires from exercising every possible credit and loophole, and thus entirely evading taxes. Sounds like a good idea? It was—back in 1969, at least, when $10,000 a year was a very nice wage and gasoline was 25 cents per gallon. However, because the rates were not adjusted for inflation, the AMT now affects more and more of the middle class as well as the rich. According to the New York Times, nearly 30 million taxpayers will be affected by 2010.
Unfortunately, many of the consumers most likely to buy a hybrid—prosperous but not ultra-wealthy families with kids and mortgages—are the most likely to pay the AMT.
A few AMT rules of thumb (but please consult your tax professional also):
If you owed AMT in the past, expect to pay it again.
The larger your family, the harder it is to escape the AMT.
Homeowners with incomes between $150,000 and $400,000 are very likely to be subject to AMT.
Residents of California, New York, and any other state that charges state income tax, are more likely to fall into the AMT bucket.
The exceptions:
Single people earning between about $25,000 and $115,000 should escape AMT, and therefore can still find the hybrid tax credit useful.
If your income is—ahem—$750,000 per year, then your taxes are likely to exceed the AMT. The hybrid tax credit would be allowable.
How will the Alternative Minimum Tax affect your hybrid tax credit? In simplest terms, you can’t get the full credit unless your regular tax obligation exceeds your AMT obligation by at least the amount of the credit. If you need more of an explanation, then it’s probably time to see your tax professional.
Did You Lease Your Hybrid? Foiled Again!
According to the IRS website, a consumer that leases a hybrid vehicle is not eligible for the credit. But wait—that’s not all. The vehicle must have been placed in service after Dec. 31, 2005, cannot have been used at the time of purchase, and must be driven predominantly within the United States.
PUBLISHED MARCH 23, 2007
Congress Short-Circuits Hybrid Tax Credits—for Some
Do you remember how excited you were when you bought your hybrid last year? Savings at the pumps, clean emissions, cool technology—and a couple of thousand bucks snatched back from Uncle Sam’s fists. At least that’s what the salesperson promised, right? In most cases, the good folks at the IRS will deliver on that promise but—depending on what you bought—be prepared for a gotcha.
The Vanishing Toyota Tax Credit
Since the introduction of the 2004 Prius, Toyota has dominated the hybrid market, selling about 80 percent of the hybrids on the road. Apparently to prevent Toyota from running even further away with the hybrid market, the architects of the 2005 Energy Bill—the piece of legislation granting the hybrid tax credits—set a limit of 60,000 tax credits per carmaker.
Toyota hit that mark in June 2006. There’s a complex, multi-tiered phase-out period, but to keep it simple, here’s how it will affect your 2006 taxes:
If you bought a Prius before Oct. 1, 2006, you are entitled to the full tax credit of $3,150.
If you bought a Prius on or after Oct. 1, 2006, your tax credit is half that amount, or $1,575.
The tax credit is slowly vanishing for these Toyota and Lexus hybrids as well:
Toyota Highlander and Camry Hybrids
Before Oct. 1: $2,600
After Oct. 1: $1,300
Lexus RX 400h
Before Oct. 1: $2,200
After Oct. 1: $1,100
Lexus GS 450h
Before Oct. 1: $1,550
After Oct. 1: $775
No other carmaker reached the 60,000 cap in 2006, so qualifying buyers of non-Toyota hybrids will receive full credits. Honda is likely to reach the limit by the end of this year, and Ford by the end of 2008. General Motors and Nissan, the only other carmakers currently with hybrids in the American market, are a few years away.
See a complete list of hybrid tax credits.
The Other Shoe Drops
If that wasn’t complicated enough, brace for a bit more bad news from the taxman: Your hybrid vehicle tax credit will be substantially reduced or eliminated if you are subject to the Alternative Minimum Tax, or AMT.
The AMT dates back to the Tax Reform Act of 1969. The goal of the legislation was to prevent millionaires from exercising every possible credit and loophole, and thus entirely evading taxes. Sounds like a good idea? It was—back in 1969, at least, when $10,000 a year was a very nice wage and gasoline was 25 cents per gallon. However, because the rates were not adjusted for inflation, the AMT now affects more and more of the middle class as well as the rich. According to the New York Times, nearly 30 million taxpayers will be affected by 2010.
Unfortunately, many of the consumers most likely to buy a hybrid—prosperous but not ultra-wealthy families with kids and mortgages—are the most likely to pay the AMT.
A few AMT rules of thumb (but please consult your tax professional also):
If you owed AMT in the past, expect to pay it again.
The larger your family, the harder it is to escape the AMT.
Homeowners with incomes between $150,000 and $400,000 are very likely to be subject to AMT.
Residents of California, New York, and any other state that charges state income tax, are more likely to fall into the AMT bucket.
The exceptions:
Single people earning between about $25,000 and $115,000 should escape AMT, and therefore can still find the hybrid tax credit useful.
If your income is—ahem—$750,000 per year, then your taxes are likely to exceed the AMT. The hybrid tax credit would be allowable.
How will the Alternative Minimum Tax affect your hybrid tax credit? In simplest terms, you can’t get the full credit unless your regular tax obligation exceeds your AMT obligation by at least the amount of the credit. If you need more of an explanation, then it’s probably time to see your tax professional.
Did You Lease Your Hybrid? Foiled Again!
According to the IRS website, a consumer that leases a hybrid vehicle is not eligible for the credit. But wait—that’s not all. The vehicle must have been placed in service after Dec. 31, 2005, cannot have been used at the time of purchase, and must be driven predominantly within the United States.
Last edited by LexFather; 02-21-12 at 08:06 AM.
02-21-12, 05:32 PM
#15
Lexus Champion
Thread Starter
They aren't and it isn't going to happen for all the reasons you stated.
So a lot of you are getting riled up over nothing or by a straw man.
There's a carpload of hybrids on the road already, there's no need to provide an incentive to buy them anymore.
Plug-in and electric; yes those have the potential to be subsidized (both on the front and back end apparently).
So a lot of you are getting riled up over nothing or by a straw man.
There's a carpload of hybrids on the road already, there's no need to provide an incentive to buy them anymore.
Plug-in and electric; yes those have the potential to be subsidized (both on the front and back end apparently).
If your objective is that in 3 years Hybrids, plug in hybrids and EVs should outnumber the sale of conventional engines, then you need to distort the pricing to make hybrids cheaper than plain old petrol/diesel engines. That's the only way I see it happening in that time frame.
So there is a need to provide an incentive depending on what your goal is. I just don't think the government should be in the business of regulating market share outcomes by power plant type.
Last edited by *Batman*; 02-21-12 at 05:51 PM.