Volkswagen diesel scandal
07-05-16, 06:12 AM
#466
Lexus Champion
Thread Starter
And when do all the Jet plane makers have to pay up for all the tons they spew out every minute of the day?
Take all the jet planes per day in the US, as compaired to all the VW diesels and you will see the diesels clean or not put out nothing as compaired.
Jet engines have been exempt for years from any emissions.
Take all the jet planes per day in the US, as compaired to all the VW diesels and you will see the diesels clean or not put out nothing as compaired.
Jet engines have been exempt for years from any emissions.
But that is not the problem being discussed here. The problem is illegal cheating. Nobody is saying that jet engine makers cheated by claiming to emit less emissions than they do.
VW was caught with a device that allowed their diesel engines to emit much more (up to 40x more) emissions than they claimed they were. The defeat device gave the engines legal emissions during testing, which allowed them to be sold in the USA, but once on the road, they emitted much more emissions than legally allowed. This is cheating and illegal, plain and simple.
This illegal cheating gave VW a clear advantage over other manufacturers that have not sold diesel engines because they could not make diesel that met emissions regulations (think Mazda, Honda and Toyota).
07-05-16, 02:05 PM
#467
What is really illegal is the EPA. Its just another alphabet creation to help remove more things from us.
That is the real cheating. Plain and simple just like you said. And the lack of control over the real problems is the proof in the pudding.
Its more of that establishment stuff we hear about.
And here is a nice sample of what I was just talking about as far as a REAL problem.
http://www.agreenroadjournal.com/201...ive-gases.html
And sorry Mr, believer of all the lies from the media, what those diesels put out is nothing compared to the above stuff.
That is the real cheating. Plain and simple just like you said. And the lack of control over the real problems is the proof in the pudding.
Its more of that establishment stuff we hear about.
And here is a nice sample of what I was just talking about as far as a REAL problem.
http://www.agreenroadjournal.com/201...ive-gases.html
And sorry Mr, believer of all the lies from the media, what those diesels put out is nothing compared to the above stuff.
Last edited by dicer; 07-05-16 at 02:32 PM.
07-06-16, 06:44 AM
#468
Lead Lap
Although I agree that diesel emissions does not hold a candle to the amount of emissions by a jet engine, aircraft makers are not doing it illegally, its just not legally regulated, so whats the motivation to do it? The same way Toyota does not legally need to make sure the Toyota RAV4's passenger section needs to pass the small overlap test (it does not), although a bad image move, Toyota technically isnt skirting the rules.
In contrast, in a regulating setting, for the purposes of financial gain, VW knowingly skirted the rules, and actively implemented a device that could pass a federally mandated test.
This would take your aircraft example, and make sure if in the future Jet emissions were regulated by some dark overlord acronym, they would implement a device that would actively cheat the test to make sure they passed.
Again, besides spurring debates, having to reduce some of their slush funds, cut down on jobs, and make sure a couple of upper managers were fired publicly, VW is doing fine. Again too big to fail is what I have said and standby.
In contrast, in a regulating setting, for the purposes of financial gain, VW knowingly skirted the rules, and actively implemented a device that could pass a federally mandated test.
This would take your aircraft example, and make sure if in the future Jet emissions were regulated by some dark overlord acronym, they would implement a device that would actively cheat the test to make sure they passed.
Again, besides spurring debates, having to reduce some of their slush funds, cut down on jobs, and make sure a couple of upper managers were fired publicly, VW is doing fine. Again too big to fail is what I have said and standby.
07-06-16, 03:53 PM
#469
What is really illegal is the EPA. Its just another alphabet creation to help remove more things from us.
That is the real cheating. Plain and simple just like you said. And the lack of control over the real problems is the proof in the pudding.
Its more of that establishment stuff we hear about.
And here is a nice sample of what I was just talking about as far as a REAL problem.
http://www.agreenroadjournal.com/201...ive-gases.html
And sorry Mr, believer of all the lies from the media, what those diesels put out is nothing compared to the above stuff.
That is the real cheating. Plain and simple just like you said. And the lack of control over the real problems is the proof in the pudding.
Its more of that establishment stuff we hear about.
And here is a nice sample of what I was just talking about as far as a REAL problem.
http://www.agreenroadjournal.com/201...ive-gases.html
And sorry Mr, believer of all the lies from the media, what those diesels put out is nothing compared to the above stuff.
I don't have the time to do the math and figure out the fuel efficiency of a 747, but I'd wager $5 the jet is more fuel efficient and pollutes less than 524 cars driving 393,000 miles. Now what would be more interesting is if a fleet of 10 stinky diesel buses(assuming each bus seats 55) driving 7500 miles is more fuel efficient than the jet. I'm betting it is, by a long shot.
Last edited by Aron9000; 07-06-16 at 03:57 PM.
07-06-16, 06:23 PM
#470
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^^ plus, 747s are, in general, now rarely used. Airlines have gone back to using the 777 bc it is more fuel efficient, and removing the first class seating to expand business and economy. Not to mention the 787s...
07-07-16, 06:10 AM
#471
Lead Lap
FWI from wiki
Emissions of passenger aircraft per passenger kilometre vary extensively because of differing factors such as the size and type aircraft, the altitude and the percentage of passenger or freight capacity of a particular flight, and the distance of the journey and number of stops en route. Also, the effect of a given amount of emissions on climate (radiative forcing) is greater at higher altitudes: see below. Some representative figures for CO2 emissions are provided by LIPASTO's survey of average direct emissions (not accounting for high-altitude radiative effects) of airliners expressed as CO2 and CO2 equivalent per passenger kilometre:[26]
Domestic, short distance, less than 463 km (288 mi): 257 g/km CO2 or 259 g/km (14.7 oz/mile) CO2e
Domestic, long distance, greater than 463 km (288 mi): 177 g/km CO2 or 178 g/km (10.1 oz/mile) CO2e
Long distance flights: 113 g/km CO2 or 114 g/km (6.5 oz/mile) CO2e
These emissions are similar to a four-seat car with one person on board;[27] however, flying trips often cover longer distances than would be undertaken by car, so the total emissions are much higher. For perspective, per passenger a typical economy-class New York to Los Angeles round trip produces about 715 kg (1574 lb) of CO2 (but is equivalent to 1,917 kg (4,230 lb) of CO2 when the high altitude "climatic forcing" effect is taken into account).[28] Within the categories of flights above, emissions from scheduled jet flights are substantially higher than turboprop or chartered jet flights. About 60% of aviation emissions arise from international flights, and these flights are not covered by the Kyoto Protocol and its emissions reduction targets.[29]
Figures from British Airways suggest carbon dioxide emissions of 100g per passenger kilometre for large jet airliners (a figure which does not account for the production of other pollutants or condensation trails)
Domestic, short distance, less than 463 km (288 mi): 257 g/km CO2 or 259 g/km (14.7 oz/mile) CO2e
Domestic, long distance, greater than 463 km (288 mi): 177 g/km CO2 or 178 g/km (10.1 oz/mile) CO2e
Long distance flights: 113 g/km CO2 or 114 g/km (6.5 oz/mile) CO2e
These emissions are similar to a four-seat car with one person on board;[27] however, flying trips often cover longer distances than would be undertaken by car, so the total emissions are much higher. For perspective, per passenger a typical economy-class New York to Los Angeles round trip produces about 715 kg (1574 lb) of CO2 (but is equivalent to 1,917 kg (4,230 lb) of CO2 when the high altitude "climatic forcing" effect is taken into account).[28] Within the categories of flights above, emissions from scheduled jet flights are substantially higher than turboprop or chartered jet flights. About 60% of aviation emissions arise from international flights, and these flights are not covered by the Kyoto Protocol and its emissions reduction targets.[29]
Figures from British Airways suggest carbon dioxide emissions of 100g per passenger kilometre for large jet airliners (a figure which does not account for the production of other pollutants or condensation trails)
07-07-16, 04:22 PM
#472
Lexus Champion
Thread Starter
Figures from British Airways suggest carbon dioxide emissions of 100g per passenger kilometre for large jet airliners (a figure which does not account for the production of other pollutants or condensation trails)
The VW scandal resulted from VW trying to minimise CO2 emissions by minimising fuel consumption, but at the expense of too-high NOX emissions.
07-07-16, 04:25 PM
#473
Lexus Champion
Thread Starter
VW Dodges Cheating Fines in Germany as Customers Demand Payouts
VW Dodges Cheating Fines in Germany as Customers Demand Payouts
Source: Bloomberg
Volkswagen AG is set to escape fines from the German government even after cheating on emissions tests for years, reflecting a softer political stance that’s increasingly drawing ire following a generous deal for U.S. drivers.
...
“We now have a situation in which Volkswagen is required to return the cars to a legally compliant condition,” German Transport Minister Alexander Dobrindt told reporters Wednesday in Berlin. “That is what is appropriate to remedy the damage that’s been done.”
While Volkswagen is paying affected U.S. owners as much as $10,000 each as part of a $15.3 billion settlement, Germany has balked at harshly punishing the manufacturer over rigging vehicles to turn on full pollution controls only during official tests. Germany, which is closely tied to Volkswagen via the state of Lower Saxony’s 20 percent stake and the political influence of the automaking giant, approved a low-cost fix that consists of a software upgrade and in some cases a piece of pipe with mesh on one end.
...
Adding on compensation could be crushing for Volkswagen as any deal in Germany would also probably apply to all 8.5 million tainted cars in Europe -- 17 times the number in the U.S. That’s not stopping critics though.
“It’s not acceptable that the government doesn’t take any real consequences from the emissions scandal and gives a blank check for tricks and deceptions,” said Oliver Krischer, a member of Germany’s Bundestag from the opposition Green Party who is leading a parliamentary investigation committee. “It needs to be explained why companies in Germany don’t pay fines. It’s also not OK that European drivers are treated worse than American VW drivers.”
...
Volkswagen CEO Mueller “is playing out a new card by telling the government: ‘Don’t put too much pressure on us, or we will go bust, and then all the jobs are gone’,” Christoph Rother, head of the Berlin office of law firm Hausfeld, which is involved in a class-action lawsuit against Volkswagen in the U.S. and represents clients in Germany. “He’s playing blackmail using a horror scenario,” rather than discussing options like vouchers for buying a new car.
...
“There’s an attempt to protect Volkswagen to a degree, as Volkswagen could be pushed to a breaking point if the same criteria applied in Germany as in the U.S.,” said Stefan Bratzel, director of the Center of Automotive Management at the University of Applied Sciences in Bergisch Gladbach, Germany. “The Transport Ministry is also damaged by the whole affair, so they want it to go away."
...
“We now have a situation in which Volkswagen is required to return the cars to a legally compliant condition,” German Transport Minister Alexander Dobrindt told reporters Wednesday in Berlin. “That is what is appropriate to remedy the damage that’s been done.”
While Volkswagen is paying affected U.S. owners as much as $10,000 each as part of a $15.3 billion settlement, Germany has balked at harshly punishing the manufacturer over rigging vehicles to turn on full pollution controls only during official tests. Germany, which is closely tied to Volkswagen via the state of Lower Saxony’s 20 percent stake and the political influence of the automaking giant, approved a low-cost fix that consists of a software upgrade and in some cases a piece of pipe with mesh on one end.
...
Adding on compensation could be crushing for Volkswagen as any deal in Germany would also probably apply to all 8.5 million tainted cars in Europe -- 17 times the number in the U.S. That’s not stopping critics though.
“It’s not acceptable that the government doesn’t take any real consequences from the emissions scandal and gives a blank check for tricks and deceptions,” said Oliver Krischer, a member of Germany’s Bundestag from the opposition Green Party who is leading a parliamentary investigation committee. “It needs to be explained why companies in Germany don’t pay fines. It’s also not OK that European drivers are treated worse than American VW drivers.”
...
Volkswagen CEO Mueller “is playing out a new card by telling the government: ‘Don’t put too much pressure on us, or we will go bust, and then all the jobs are gone’,” Christoph Rother, head of the Berlin office of law firm Hausfeld, which is involved in a class-action lawsuit against Volkswagen in the U.S. and represents clients in Germany. “He’s playing blackmail using a horror scenario,” rather than discussing options like vouchers for buying a new car.
...
“There’s an attempt to protect Volkswagen to a degree, as Volkswagen could be pushed to a breaking point if the same criteria applied in Germany as in the U.S.,” said Stefan Bratzel, director of the Center of Automotive Management at the University of Applied Sciences in Bergisch Gladbach, Germany. “The Transport Ministry is also damaged by the whole affair, so they want it to go away."
07-13-16, 07:21 PM
#474
Lexus Champion
Thread Starter
Italian consumer group: VW's diesel 'fix' actually made NOx levels rise
Add Italian consumer group Altroconsumo to the entities who continue to shame Volkswagen for its diesel-vehicle emissions levels. The group recently did real-world road tests on an Audi Q5 with Volkswagen's technical "fix" for the emissions-testing "defeat" software installed. Unfortunately, the group found that nitrogen-oxide (NOx) emissions from the vehicle were up 25 percent compared to the level before the repairs, Reuters reported.
PRESS STATEMENT - 07.07.2016
European owners of a VW group car have even more reason to feel misled and unsettled following a test by Italian consumer group Altroconsumo, a BEUC member organisation. The test of an Audi Q5 after the removal of the defeat device revealed that NOx emissions were 25% higher than legal limits allow.
Monique Goyens, Director General of The European Consumer Organisation (BEUC) commented:
"This is another blow for EU consumers and a new dimension of the VW scandal. This test by our Italian member clearly demonstrates that VW's solution to deactivate the defeat device is not reliable.
"It is imperative that the German testing agency who approved the fix, but also their national counterparts, urgently re-examine the solutions to repair the affected cars and that they publish these results. Consumers need to be 100% certain that their car will be in conformity with emission thresholds after the recall.
"Volkswagen justifies compensation payments to US consumers with the argument that their cars cannot be as easily fixed as in Europe. This excuse now seems to be built on sand. VW must compensate European consumers. This is the only possible way forward for VW to make up for this ongoing consumer detriment.
"National public authorities must finally take action and put pressure on VW to correct their misbehaviour."
European owners of a VW group car have even more reason to feel misled and unsettled following a test by Italian consumer group Altroconsumo, a BEUC member organisation. The test of an Audi Q5 after the removal of the defeat device revealed that NOx emissions were 25% higher than legal limits allow.
Monique Goyens, Director General of The European Consumer Organisation (BEUC) commented:
"This is another blow for EU consumers and a new dimension of the VW scandal. This test by our Italian member clearly demonstrates that VW's solution to deactivate the defeat device is not reliable.
"It is imperative that the German testing agency who approved the fix, but also their national counterparts, urgently re-examine the solutions to repair the affected cars and that they publish these results. Consumers need to be 100% certain that their car will be in conformity with emission thresholds after the recall.
"Volkswagen justifies compensation payments to US consumers with the argument that their cars cannot be as easily fixed as in Europe. This excuse now seems to be built on sand. VW must compensate European consumers. This is the only possible way forward for VW to make up for this ongoing consumer detriment.
"National public authorities must finally take action and put pressure on VW to correct their misbehaviour."
VW just cannot win with it small diesels. Maybe VW should just give it up and embrace electrification (which they seem to be doing).
07-14-16, 10:09 PM
#475
Fix rejected!!
California just rejected the VW, Audi & Porsche fix!!
http://www.arb.ca.gov/newsrel/newsrelease.php?id=840
VW / Audi
http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/vw_info...ver_letter.pdf
Porsche
http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/vw_info...ver_letter.pdf
Bye bye Audi, VW...Porsche...
http://www.arb.ca.gov/newsrel/newsrelease.php?id=840
VW / Audi
http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/vw_info...ver_letter.pdf
Porsche
http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/vw_info...ver_letter.pdf
Bye bye Audi, VW...Porsche...
07-14-16, 11:17 PM
#476
California just rejected the VW, Audi & Porsche fix!!
http://www.arb.ca.gov/newsrel/newsrelease.php?id=840
VW / Audi
http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/vw_info...ver_letter.pdf
Porsche
http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/vw_info...ver_letter.pdf
Bye bye Audi, VW...Porsche...
http://www.arb.ca.gov/newsrel/newsrelease.php?id=840
VW / Audi
http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/vw_info...ver_letter.pdf
Porsche
http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/vw_info...ver_letter.pdf
Bye bye Audi, VW...Porsche...
Please note that this is for the 3.0 V6 diesel installed in the following cars/suvs:
Audi Q5
Audi Q7
Porsche Cayenne
VW Toureg
Audi A6
Audi A7
Audi A8
This is a very small number of cars. The diesel option was not popular on most of these cars and they were sold in far fewer numbers than the VW cars with the 2.0 4 cylinder diesel(VW Golf, Beetle, Jetta, Passat, Audi A3 in the US). But also note on a global scale, especially in Europe, the take rate on a diesel engine was over 50% for any VW or Audi product, regardless of model, price, engine size, etc
07-15-16, 08:14 AM
#477
Lead Lap
Please note that this is for the 3.0 V6 diesel installed in the following cars/suvs:
Audi Q5
Audi Q7
Porsche Cayenne
VW Toureg
Audi A6
Audi A7
Audi A8
This is a very small number of cars. The diesel option was not popular on most of these cars and they were sold in far fewer numbers than the VW cars with the 2.0 4 cylinder diesel(VW Golf, Beetle, Jetta, Passat, Audi A3 in the US). But also note on a global scale, especially in Europe, the take rate on a diesel engine was over 50% for any VW or Audi product, regardless of model, price, engine size, etc
Audi Q5
Audi Q7
Porsche Cayenne
VW Toureg
Audi A6
Audi A7
Audi A8
This is a very small number of cars. The diesel option was not popular on most of these cars and they were sold in far fewer numbers than the VW cars with the 2.0 4 cylinder diesel(VW Golf, Beetle, Jetta, Passat, Audi A3 in the US). But also note on a global scale, especially in Europe, the take rate on a diesel engine was over 50% for any VW or Audi product, regardless of model, price, engine size, etc
A buyback of cars with 3.0-liter engines would mean repurchasing luxury vehicles such as Audi’s top-of-the line A8 sedan and Q7 sport utility vehicle as well as Porsche Cayenne SUVs. That could add another $2 billion to $3 billion to Volkswagen’s costs related to the cheating in the U.S., said Juergen Pieper, a Frankfurt-based analyst at Bankhaus Metzler. The rejection shows the scandal that emerged in September is far from over, despite last month’s landmark $14.7 billion settlement covering 480,000 cars with 2.0-liter engines.
07-15-16, 09:03 AM
#478
The US should just ban diesel already for passenger vehicles.
I think it will take VW Group a while to recover from this and by that time, they will have many electric and hybrids on the road.
I think it will take VW Group a while to recover from this and by that time, they will have many electric and hybrids on the road.
07-15-16, 04:02 PM
#479
Funny all are worried about VW doing illegal. But certain politicians can do what ever they wish and its no biggy.
And the 747 deal posted is nonsense. As they don't always carry passengers and besides who cares if they do its still pollution and a huge waste of fuel especially when there are ways to cut that consumption in an airliner, they just refuse to do what it would take to accomplish that, it requires to get rid of jets.
And if your so worried about diesel, why not even a little concern about this. Why? because people like to believe every lie they are told on tv.
http://www.agreenroadjournal.com/201...ive-gases.html
And the 747 deal posted is nonsense. As they don't always carry passengers and besides who cares if they do its still pollution and a huge waste of fuel especially when there are ways to cut that consumption in an airliner, they just refuse to do what it would take to accomplish that, it requires to get rid of jets.
And if your so worried about diesel, why not even a little concern about this. Why? because people like to believe every lie they are told on tv.
http://www.agreenroadjournal.com/201...ive-gases.html
09-09-16, 10:34 AM
#480
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
Volkswagen engineer pleads guilty in U.S. diesel emissions probe
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-vo...-idUSKCN11F234
A Volkswagen AG (VOWG_p.DE) engineer pleaded guilty on Friday to helping the German automaker evade U.S. emission standards, becoming the first person U.S. authorities have charged in their probe.
James Liang, who has worked for VW since 1983 and was part of a team of engineers who developed a diesel engine, was charged in an indictment made public on Friday with conspiring to commit wire fraud and violating U.S. clean air laws.
The 62-year-old German citizen, who lives in Newbury Park, California, appeared in U.S. District Court in Detroit on Friday and entered into a plea agreement that includes his cooperation with the government in its investigation. The indictment says Liang conspired with current and former VW employees to mislead U.S. regulators about the software that allowed the automaker to circumvent the nation's emission standards.
Liang could face up to five years in prison but could get a much lighter sentence if the government finds he provided substantial assistance.
VW spokeswoman Jeannine Ginivan declined to comment on the indictment. "Volkswagen is continuing to cooperate with the U.S. Department of Justice," she said.
The company has already agreed to spend up to $16.5 billion to address environmental, state and owner claims in the United States. It still faces billions in potential fines and must resolve the fate of 85,000 polluting 3.0-liter vehicles.
Reuters reported in August that VW and the Justice Department had held preliminary settlement talks about resolving a criminal probe into the emissions scandal.
Liang was indicted in June, but the indictment was only made public on Friday.
(Reporting by David Shepardson; Editing by Jonathan Oatis and Lisa Von Ahn)
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-vo...-idUSKCN11F234
A Volkswagen AG (VOWG_p.DE) engineer pleaded guilty on Friday to helping the German automaker evade U.S. emission standards, becoming the first person U.S. authorities have charged in their probe.
James Liang, who has worked for VW since 1983 and was part of a team of engineers who developed a diesel engine, was charged in an indictment made public on Friday with conspiring to commit wire fraud and violating U.S. clean air laws.
The 62-year-old German citizen, who lives in Newbury Park, California, appeared in U.S. District Court in Detroit on Friday and entered into a plea agreement that includes his cooperation with the government in its investigation. The indictment says Liang conspired with current and former VW employees to mislead U.S. regulators about the software that allowed the automaker to circumvent the nation's emission standards.
Liang could face up to five years in prison but could get a much lighter sentence if the government finds he provided substantial assistance.
VW spokeswoman Jeannine Ginivan declined to comment on the indictment. "Volkswagen is continuing to cooperate with the U.S. Department of Justice," she said.
The company has already agreed to spend up to $16.5 billion to address environmental, state and owner claims in the United States. It still faces billions in potential fines and must resolve the fate of 85,000 polluting 3.0-liter vehicles.
Reuters reported in August that VW and the Justice Department had held preliminary settlement talks about resolving a criminal probe into the emissions scandal.
Liang was indicted in June, but the indictment was only made public on Friday.
(Reporting by David Shepardson; Editing by Jonathan Oatis and Lisa Von Ahn)