Ford Patents 11-Speed Automatic Transmission
#31
Lexus Champion
What you are talking about, in Hybrid-speak, is the difference between a series hybrid and a parallel hybrid. The original first-generation Honda Integrated Motor Assist and some early GM hybrid units were good examples of series hybrids, where the gas engine was the primary power source and the electric motor simply boosted the gas engine when necessary, or as a starter-motor to get the gas engine going again after it occasionally shut off at stop-signs, traffic-lights, etc.....
Parallel hybrids, on the other hand, were like those pioneered by the Toyota Prius and similar Ford units first built under Toyota license....the gas and electric motors can each drive the wheels independent of the other, as conditions and battery charge warrant. Since then, of course, several other types of hybrids have also been introduced, some with individual electric motors at each rear wheel and behind or parallel to the gas engine.
Parallel hybrids, on the other hand, were like those pioneered by the Toyota Prius and similar Ford units first built under Toyota license....the gas and electric motors can each drive the wheels independent of the other, as conditions and battery charge warrant. Since then, of course, several other types of hybrids have also been introduced, some with individual electric motors at each rear wheel and behind or parallel to the gas engine.
In a series hybrid, the internal combustion engine NEVER mechanically drives the wheels; the mechanical power is converted to electrical power, which in turn drives the electric motor that drives the wheels. A diesel-electric locomotive is a classic example of a series hybrid.
A series hybrid can also be described as having an electrical transmission rather than a mechanical transmission.
In a parallel hybrid, either the internal combustion engine or the electric motor individually, or both together, can drive the wheels. The 1-motor hybrid systems produced by most of the auto-manufacturers (Audi, MB, Hyundai, etc.) are parallel hybrids. At slow speeds, only the single electric motor drives the wheels (the engine is off); at higher speeds, only the internal combustion engine drives the wheels (through the normal automatic transmission), with the electric motor off or the engine turning the motor as a generator to recharge the battery; and when extra power is required, both the engine and the electric motor together drive the wheels.
GM's and Honda's old mild hybrids are similar to the 1-motor parallel hybrids except that the electric motor is not powerful enough to drive the car alone. The petrol engine alone can drive the wheels or it can be assisted by the electric motor, but the motor never drives by itself.
Finally, Ford's 1st-generation hybrid system was NOT licensed from Toyota. Ford developed it on their own and when they realised that it was similar to Toyota's hybrid system, they decided to seek a licence from Toyota, to avoid patent-infringement issues, but what they sold was their own design.
#32
Finally, Ford's 1st-generation hybrid system was NOT licensed from Toyota. Ford developed it on their own and when they realised that it was similar to Toyota's hybrid system, they decided to seek a licence from Toyota, to avoid patent-infringement issues, but what they sold was their own design.
#33
Lexus Fanatic
I know the difference between series and parallel hybrids. What you described as a series hybrid is a mild hybrid, not a series hybrid.
In a series hybrid, the internal combustion engine NEVER mechanically drives the wheels; the mechanical power is converted to electrical power, which in turn drives the electric motor that drives the wheels. A diesel-electric locomotive is a classic example of a series hybrid.
A series hybrid can also be described as having an electrical transmission rather than a mechanical transmission.
In a parallel hybrid, either the internal combustion engine or the electric motor individually, or both together, can drive the wheels. The 1-motor hybrid systems produced by most of the auto-manufacturers (Audi, MB, Hyundai, etc.) are parallel hybrids. At slow speeds, only the single electric motor drives the wheels (the engine is off); at higher speeds, only the internal combustion engine drives the wheels (through the normal automatic transmission), with the electric motor off or the engine turning the motor as a generator to recharge the battery; and when extra power is required, both the engine and the electric motor together drive the wheels.
GM's and Honda's old mild hybrids are similar to the 1-motor parallel hybrids except that the electric motor is not powerful enough to drive the car alone. The petrol engine alone can drive the wheels or it can be assisted by the electric motor, but the motor never drives by itself.
In a series hybrid, the internal combustion engine NEVER mechanically drives the wheels; the mechanical power is converted to electrical power, which in turn drives the electric motor that drives the wheels. A diesel-electric locomotive is a classic example of a series hybrid.
A series hybrid can also be described as having an electrical transmission rather than a mechanical transmission.
In a parallel hybrid, either the internal combustion engine or the electric motor individually, or both together, can drive the wheels. The 1-motor hybrid systems produced by most of the auto-manufacturers (Audi, MB, Hyundai, etc.) are parallel hybrids. At slow speeds, only the single electric motor drives the wheels (the engine is off); at higher speeds, only the internal combustion engine drives the wheels (through the normal automatic transmission), with the electric motor off or the engine turning the motor as a generator to recharge the battery; and when extra power is required, both the engine and the electric motor together drive the wheels.
GM's and Honda's old mild hybrids are similar to the 1-motor parallel hybrids except that the electric motor is not powerful enough to drive the car alone. The petrol engine alone can drive the wheels or it can be assisted by the electric motor, but the motor never drives by itself.
Finally, Ford's 1st-generation hybrid system was NOT licensed from Toyota. Ford developed it on their own and when they realised that it was similar to Toyota's hybrid system, they decided to seek a licence from Toyota, to avoid patent-infringement issues, but what they sold was their own design.
#34
What in the actual f***.... 11 speeds? God forbid if that tranny ever needs replacing...
I thought i read somewhere that with the current technology, CVTs are only able to support low torque applications, up to around 200-250 ft/lb tq. Correct me if im wrong
Honestly with a truck like that all it needs is a good ol' fashion 5 spd manual
Honestly with a truck like that all it needs is a good ol' fashion 5 spd manual
#35
Lexus Fanatic
Originally Posted by DreamGS4
I thought I read somewhere that with the current technology, CVTs are only able to support low torque applications, up to around 200-250 ft/lb tq. Correct me if im wrong
#36
Lexus Champion
It would be nice to have CVTs but it is much, much easier to add planetary gearsets to create ever more forward gears than it is to improve the CVT. The current mechanical CVT (belt and pulley) can only handle (it would seem) about 270 lb.ft / 370 Nm of torque (the Nissan VQ35 engine's peak torque); any more torque and the CVT is likely to slip and lose efficiency.
The metal belt is already an improvement on an older design that used rubber belts.
Audi has given up using CVTs, preferring dual-clutch automated manual transmissions.
#37
Lexus Champion
I have been interested in hybrid cars since the early 2000s, when Honda first introduced their first Insight hybrid in North America, and Toyota finally imported the Prius here after 3 years of sales in Japan.
So I distinctly remember the rumours back in 2004 when Ford first introduced their new hybrid system (in the Ford Escape Hybrid) that Ford had copied Toyota's technology. Ford strongly stated that was not the case, that they developed it on their own, but worried that it looked too similar to Toyota's system, decided to enter into a pre-emptive patent-sharing agreement (not merely a one-sided licensing by Ford of Toyota's hybrid system).
Of course Ford's first Power-Split Device eCVT was sourced from Aisin (an autoparts supplier belonging to the Toyota Group that co-developed the Prius' eCVT with Toyota); no other transmission manufacturer at the time had the know-how to design and build an eCVT. And Ford's first hybrid battery was sourced from Sanyo, which provided hybrid batteries to Honda (Panasonic provided the hybrid battery for the Prius).
Source: Wikipedia
So I distinctly remember the rumours back in 2004 when Ford first introduced their new hybrid system (in the Ford Escape Hybrid) that Ford had copied Toyota's technology. Ford strongly stated that was not the case, that they developed it on their own, but worried that it looked too similar to Toyota's system, decided to enter into a pre-emptive patent-sharing agreement (not merely a one-sided licensing by Ford of Toyota's hybrid system).
Of course Ford's first Power-Split Device eCVT was sourced from Aisin (an autoparts supplier belonging to the Toyota Group that co-developed the Prius' eCVT with Toyota); no other transmission manufacturer at the time had the know-how to design and build an eCVT. And Ford's first hybrid battery was sourced from Sanyo, which provided hybrid batteries to Honda (Panasonic provided the hybrid battery for the Prius).
The Escape Hybrid uses technology similar to that used in the Toyota Prius. Ford engineers realized their technology may conflict with patents held by Toyota, which led to a 2004 patent-sharing accord between the companies, licensing Ford's use of some of Toyota's hybrid technology[24] in exchange for Toyota's use of some of Ford's diesel and direct-injection engine technology.[25] Ford maintains that Ford received no technical assistance from Toyota in developing the hybrid powertrain, but that some hybrid engine technologies developed by Ford independently were found to be similar to technologies previously patented by Toyota, so licenses were obtained.[25] Aisin Seiki Co. Ltd., a Japanese automotive components supplier belonging to the Toyota Group, supplies the hybrid continuously variable transmission for the Escape Hybrid. While Toyota produces its third-generation Prius transmission in-house, Aisin is the only supplier of hybrid transmissions to other manufacturers. Friction has arisen concerning Aisin's allocation of limited production capacity and engineering resources to Ford.[25] Sanyo Electric Co. built the 50 kg (110 lb),330V[26] 5.5 Ah (would make it 1.8kWh storage), 250-cell nickel metal hydride (NiMH) battery pack for the 2005 Escape Hybrid.[27]
#38
I have been interested in hybrid cars since the early 2000s, when Honda first introduced their first Insight hybrid in North America, and Toyota finally imported the Prius here after 3 years of sales in Japan.
So I distinctly remember the rumours back in 2004 when Ford first introduced their new hybrid system (in the Ford Escape Hybrid) that Ford had copied Toyota's technology. Ford strongly stated that was not the case, that they developed it on their own, but worried that it looked too similar to Toyota's system, decided to enter into a pre-emptive patent-sharing agreement (not merely a one-sided licensing by Ford of Toyota's hybrid system).
Of course Ford's first Power-Split Device eCVT was sourced from Aisin (an autoparts supplier belonging to the Toyota Group that co-developed the Prius' eCVT with Toyota); no other transmission manufacturer at the time had the know-how to design and build an eCVT. And Ford's first hybrid battery was sourced from Sanyo, which provided hybrid batteries to Honda (Panasonic provided the hybrid battery for the Prius).
Source: Wikipedia
So I distinctly remember the rumours back in 2004 when Ford first introduced their new hybrid system (in the Ford Escape Hybrid) that Ford had copied Toyota's technology. Ford strongly stated that was not the case, that they developed it on their own, but worried that it looked too similar to Toyota's system, decided to enter into a pre-emptive patent-sharing agreement (not merely a one-sided licensing by Ford of Toyota's hybrid system).
Of course Ford's first Power-Split Device eCVT was sourced from Aisin (an autoparts supplier belonging to the Toyota Group that co-developed the Prius' eCVT with Toyota); no other transmission manufacturer at the time had the know-how to design and build an eCVT. And Ford's first hybrid battery was sourced from Sanyo, which provided hybrid batteries to Honda (Panasonic provided the hybrid battery for the Prius).
Source: Wikipedia
I understand that Ford PR does not want us to think they purchased parts, but that does not matter. If you outsourced all of the components, then what exactly did you develop?
I mean they outright purchased most of the things from Aisin:
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2007...seiki_to_.html
I am sure they did some system integration, it is no different than when they all purchase transmissions from Aisin or BW or ZF and then claim to "co-develop" them, and in the end, every car has even the same transmission stick (ZF).
For current systems, they designed them and built them in house... so if they are using Aisin motors and whoever's batteries, thats much less than buying everything from Aisin before.
#39
Lexus Champion
At the moment, the ones leading the charge for conventional CVT are Nissan (Maxima 350-370 Nm) and Subaru (from FA, EJ and EZ engines all the way to EE20 BOXER DIESEL ENGINE with 350 Nm mated to their Lineartronic CVT)
Conversely....
Audi has given up using CVTs, preferring dual-clutch automated manual transmissions.
Slightly related, MB used to have Autotronic CVT in the previous-gen A Class....
#40
Yup.
At the moment, the ones leading the charge for conventional CVT are Nissan (Maxima 350-370 Nm) and Subaru (from FA, EJ and EZ engines all the way to EE20 BOXER DIESEL ENGINE with 350 Nm mated to their Lineartronic CVT)
Conversely....
Yeah it's unfortunate but I guess it can't be helped. AUDI could not get their Multitronic CVT to work with their Quattro AWD drivetrain........and this creates a problem because quattro awd is a trait that defines the Audi brand.
Slightly related, MB used to have Autotronic CVT in the previous-gen A Class....
At the moment, the ones leading the charge for conventional CVT are Nissan (Maxima 350-370 Nm) and Subaru (from FA, EJ and EZ engines all the way to EE20 BOXER DIESEL ENGINE with 350 Nm mated to their Lineartronic CVT)
Conversely....
Yeah it's unfortunate but I guess it can't be helped. AUDI could not get their Multitronic CVT to work with their Quattro AWD drivetrain........and this creates a problem because quattro awd is a trait that defines the Audi brand.
Slightly related, MB used to have Autotronic CVT in the previous-gen A Class....
http://www.schaeffler.com/remotemedi...2010_09_en.pdf
Thats very nice report too... Toyota plans to use CVTs from 1.0l to 2.0l engines so far, and keeps AT's for more luxurious/faster vehicles.
New Auris 1.2t CVT should be finally really nice, with curve sensing it will behave more natural and not "shift" to 1200rpm mode while you are slowing down in curves.
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