Toys4RJill

Actually mounting requirments has nothing at all to do with it and you are incorrect once again, the Malibu and ATS both share the brand new Ecotec III 2.0 motors, both are the same engines and the Malibu has in installed FWD transverse while the ATS is installed North/South RWD.

As for the Verano/Regal 2.0t, they do not share the block either according to the part list at GM. They are not even basically the same.
I am not really sure if you understand this segment, Audi/BMW and now Cadillac are offering turbo four's becuase of the driving feel, precieved perception and MPG. Smoothness/quietness is no longer a selling feature for this segment, you have totally missed that. The Lexus IS will be dropping the 2.5 for a new 4 cylinder turbo.

SteVTEC

LTG (newer) vs LHU (older)

http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/f...vs-ltg-116017/

mmarshall

N/S and E/W engines obviously have to have different attachment-points and motor-mounts. it also affects how the exhaust manifold (s) have to be designed and how the engine-torque affects the front end of the car. Some of what you say, though, is correct.




I understand it. I simply don't agree with it. V6 engines, IMO, are still more suited for entry-level luxury cars than four-bangers. Force-fed fours are becoming popular simply because of CAFE and because they offer better mileage under low-throttle conditions than V6s do, not because of "driving feel". Although the classic VW/Audi 2.0L turbo, in both gas and TDI form, I'll admit, is a real gem of a powerplant and one of the rare exceptions, in general, fours simply don't offer V6 refinement.

Respectfully, you have your opinion on this matter, and I have mine. As far as I'm concerned (again, respectfully) , let's leave it at that.

mmarshall

From what the Buick people told me when the Verano was first introduced, it was originally supposed to use the 2.4L N/A four for one year (2012), with the 2.0T as an option, and then, for 2013, have the N/A 2.5L (like on the Cadillac ATS) take over as the base engine whle keeping the 2.0 turbo as an option. GM (apparantly) nixed those plans (the N/A 2.4L is still the base engine), and now seems determined to make future Veranos all-turbo.

Maybe, maybe not. Hard to say. GM did lose a significant amount of its resources with the buyout/restructuring several years ago.

As far as GM being the largest engine-buider in the world, I don't have the hard numbers on that, but I'd be surprised if they could (or did) turn out more engines worldwide than Toyota.

TangoRed

Agreed.

Toys4RJill

Well you might think you understand the segment, but I really question if you do. The entry level segment has changed, turbo gas motors is what buyers want and will pay for, they acheive more performance in a smaller package than a small displacement V6. There is a difference in driving feel when driving a I4 turbo than driving a small V6. The 2.5 found in the IS is a hog and feels like a fish out of water compared to an ATS 4 turbo. Most of these turbo 4s are not doing much better than smaller V6 motors when in comes to EPA.

Now, look a lexus, they are piping in noise into F sport models for perception that the driver hears.

Entry level sport sedans such as the ATS, IS, 3 series, and A4 (Verano/Regal are not entry nor are they sport sedans) are all about a specific driving experience and silence, smoothness, and refinement are not the first things on the list of what buyers want.

The torque on the new 2.0t are the same for both the Malibu and ATS. So are the exhaust manifold parts. Again, you are incorrect.


Anyway, you can have your opinion, I just think you are unsure of what you are talking about.

mmarshall

For those who are interested, BTW, Cadillac has a 36-month, $299-per-month lease special ($2779 down, for 30,000 miles total, or 10,000 miles a year) on 2013 ATS RWD 2.0T Preferred-Equipment models. Looks like maybe a decent deal for those who don't drive a whole lot of miles.

http://www.cadillac.com/pricing-offe...cadillac%20com

IS350jet

Are you really going to compare the slowest V6 sedan in production with a turbo ATS? Let's be realistic, here, there is no comparison. Aside from the performance, the V6 in the Lexus has a refinement and smoothness that the Caddy can't touch. I think that's what Mike was referring to. He (mmarshall) is also a legendary member on this board and deserves more respect than you're giving him. I would trust his opinion over yours any day!!

Hoovey689

iTrader: (16)

Agreed. An actual comparison between the IS250 and ATS would come from the base ATS and it's 2.5 I4 with 202hp and 191lbft not the turbo 2.0

LexFather

I do like that the ATS offers red leather.

mmarshall

Good point. As I see it, that's just one more sign that Cadillac is specifically aiming this car at BMW. Several BMWs have offered red-leather seats for years.

SecPole14

LOL

IMO, I think all these entry-level 4 cylinders selling for $40K are a joke. For $50K, I'd rather have a lightly-optioned GS than a loaded 4-clyinder ATS (or 3-series).

ATS and CTS are nice cars, but Cadillac are making fools of themselves by essentially trying to be the American, GM version of BMW. Whatever happened to luxury and V8s and being the standard of the world?

Hoovey689

iTrader: (16)

Pretty much government mandates and rules are killing automotive heritage

mmarshall

I agree that small turbo-fours in this class of car, if not a joke, are at least highly questionable, considering that a V6 will usually give better refinement. As I pointed out in some earlier posts, upcoming CAFE requirements seem to be forcing the hand of some manufacturers in doing so.


Have you driven an ATS or a CTS? The 2Gen CTS, especially, is FAR better than the 1Gen. And BMW (sad to say) has lost some of its former superiority in chassis/steering with its latest designs. Problem is......BMW, for so many years (and now Audi) is so firmly entrenched in the sport-sedan marketplace that many people have trouble believing that Cadillac can now compete. Like with Hyundai and Kia 10 years ago, Cadillac's actual improvements seem to be outrunning their lagging public-perception.

You mean Grandpa's DTS/DeVille? Sadly, it went the same direction as Lincoln's Town Car....out. The V8 Seville of course, was dropped a few years ago, and the V8 Eldorado several years before that. That, despite the fact that those big Cadillacs, decades ago, really once WERE the Standard of the World.

I share some of your concern, BTW, about big luxury cars with soft suspensions being more and more relegated to history. But, perhaps because of the same CAFE reasons that are now putting 2.0L turbo fours in entry-level Caddies and Lincolns, that may be why the big V8s are all disappearing. (I basically agree with Hoovey on that one). Also, the auto industry has convinced itself that ride-quality is of secondary importance to handling these days....or has tried to compromise ride/handling with electronically-adjustable suspensions and low-profile tires.

Two good things, though, about the new Cadillac XTS compared to Grandpa's old DTS....One, its interior, like that of the new CTS and ATS, is MUCH better in fit/fnish, and, Two, it has an AWD option that the DTS lacked. Same with Lincoln....the MKS flagship also has the AWD opton that the old Town Car lacked, though the MKS interior can't compare with its Cadillac competition. And neither of these new Cadillac/Lincoln flagships, IMO, ride anywhere near as well as their predecessors did.

Toys4RJill

I am simply amazed by some of the wrong information you both have mention, just like mmarshall, you guys are very unsure of the entry level segment for luxury sport sedans.

The standard 2.5 I4 does not compete with the 2.5 V6, it is the 2.0 turbo model that competes with the 2.5 V6.

1. You cannot get the 2.5 I4 in AWD or top tier packages. You can get both the 2.0t and 2.5V6 in all packages. You cannot get premium or performance models of the 2.5I4, but you can get the top package as well as an F sport package with the IS 2.5.

2. AWD is not available with the 2.5 I4. AWD is available with the Lexus 2.5 and the 2.0 Caddy Turbo.

Finally, as you starting building your options on either the ATS or IS you won't go to far with the 2.5I4.

You can get a fully loaded 2014 Is 2.5 in either RWD or AWD, you can't do that with the 2.5 I4 Caddy.

Such misinformation from some of you guys.