Outside of IS F/LFA,CTS-V Asian/American luxury=zzzzzzzzzzz Euro luxury= "oh yeah"!!
07-20-12, 01:24 PM
#31
Lexus Champion
On one hand, Lexus is probably wondering if they have enough funds from the budget to expand the F lineup beyond the IS-F (especially with an unfavorable currency exchange rate along with the budget that was used for the LFA).
Still, I do hope they push through with the expansion (hopefully starting with a >500hp GS-F).
P.S.
With that said, 1SICK has a point with the Germans on how they're expanding their performance vehicle lineup like crazy.
In fact, it's not only the Germans. Even the likes of British manufacturers like Jaguar are following suit (heck, they're thinking of XFR-S sweet jesus).
Just madness......
Still, I do hope they push through with the expansion (hopefully starting with a >500hp GS-F).
P.S.
With that said, 1SICK has a point with the Germans on how they're expanding their performance vehicle lineup like crazy.
In fact, it's not only the Germans. Even the likes of British manufacturers like Jaguar are following suit (heck, they're thinking of XFR-S sweet jesus).
Just madness......
07-20-12, 02:47 PM
#32
With respect to the thread title (though some previous comments are geared toward sport), Times are changing and Luxury isn't the only thing to aspire too now, its the whole package. Note how almost every make whether it be a mainstream or Tier one brand, has upped the build quality and materials in their vehicles. The design and engineering. The safety and technology.
I wouldn't say that Asian and American "Luxury" is lacking behind its European counterparts but rather the offering as a whole. Any manufacturer can put perforated double stitched leather and a high tech infotainment system into their cars. Rather it's how the automaker is perceived on a local and global scale. Now what I mean by this is European cars have always had an upper hand when it comes to most aspects of Automobiles whether its a history or pedigree. Parity between European, American, Japanese, and Korean makes is far from equal because of the way society classifies race/countries/origins etc.. Basically Europeans will always be deemed more prestigious and born with "pedigree". As long as people hold anything with a European name in high regard (i.e. the badge), there's not much American, Japanese, or Korean makes can do.
To that effect, each make is distinctly different in design (which is subjective) so a true comparison of a cars merits cannot be made based on that. Only stats and numbers, sizes and dimensions, performance and handling can be said to have any true basis for comparison of cars of the same segment i.e. IS, 3, C, A4 etc.. Point in case the Infiniti M is a very nice car, and has the technology that the others do. But honestly it doesn't "do it" for me, and IMO there are better options out there. Was the new M Infiniti's best effort comes into question. But much like my own opinion about the M it comes down to the styling of the vehicle. I think Infiniti like much of the automotive industry is in a design crisis looking for an identity. That and the way their models are set-up. The thing that BMW, MBZ, Audi, and Lexus do better than Lincoln, Cadillac, Acura, Infiniti is they have a full size line-up and not just a few models that compete in multiple segments (more on this in my conclusion). Rather they a dedicated and furthermore distinct from their lesser siblings like Toyota, VW etc.. The window switches from the G and MDX are straight out of a Nissan and Honda, which needs to stop if they want to be considered Tier 1 someday.
Back to my second paragraph, brand perception is key. History and pedigree play a major role in this. For those makes striving toward success, past mistakes have been known to hurt a company's future. Say the name of some past moniker and it may bring back bad memories even though the automaker is trying to break out of the mold and escape the ghosts that are associated with it. And for those up and comers, establishing oneself is oh so important. M, AMG, RS all started from day one at one point so when people knock F or V for example it's rather ignorant. Were talking about new programs with some, little, or even no history in motorsports and starting from the ground up. F cars and V series may not be "up to snuff" as their older counterparts, but as a first attempt at entering a high performance segment they are in the thick of competition. To that end perception, history, pedigree birth reputation which follows a make or model over the course of it's existence.
That said, I feel each continent is focused on different aspects of the industry. For example, Asian manufactures have a reputation of reliable and efficient vehicles that are also intuitive with their controls. Of course non are perfect, but they are atop their segment in regards to the aforementioned.
European automakers on the other hand have a rich pedigree of racing and motoring. Many of which are built with high quality materials and a high feature content. Their vehicles posses strong powertrains and awesome road manners. Unfortunately their flaws are (ie reliability) are covered up by cushy leather and the excellent suspensions that are comfy yet firm. So in most comparison tests European cars get the nod over their Asian and American counterparts. I like to compare the Europeans automakers to their hierarchy governments from which they came. Chess anyone? Offering a full stable to do battle with the next kingdom. For example BMW; 1, 3, 5, 6, 7 series, X1, X3, X5, X6, Z4 (did I miss any lol) and then of course the enemy; A3, A4, A5, A6, A7, A8 and Q5, Q7, TT, R8 and S/RS versions as well. I feel Europeans like to add depth to their models. Just how far down the rabbit hole can they go with a model. The BMW 3 series for example; 328i, 335i, 335d and M3 as top dog. Let's not forget other diesel and petrol models offered anywhere but stateside. Anyway point being European cars add sophistication and push their models to performance extremes while retaining that haughtiness that we so love to flaunt when were at a stop light.
American cars have come a long way (mostly in recent years) from their crude no frills beginnings. Of course that's not to eschew one of the greatest class of cars only American's could give way to; American muscle. Despite the sometimes questionable handling dynamics, the raw power surely puts a smile on ones face (thank you 60s-70s muscle, Ford GT, Chevy Corvette and Dodge Viper!!!). As far as reliability is concerned, despite the same poor reliability record for American and European cars alike, European models get the nod because of their pedigree and plushness. I would never change this though, because each brings their own charm to the automotive world. The difference between American V8 and European V8 soundtracks... I love'em both!! Coming back full circle your your topic Mike, I feel that each automaker (luxury) in particular for this discussion are focused on different things. Asian automakers in particular have brought fuel economy to the table as it has become a social norm. I've seen the Europeans approach this in a different manner by downsizing engines (M5 V10 to V8TT etc..). I can't say much for American luxury at the moment. They are trying I'll give them that. Cadillac in particular, they're offering V models to most of their line-up but they need more structure in their vehicles offered. Personally I think they need to work one model at a time. The CTS is good and getting better, and the ATS looks promising. A 3-series beater? We'll know soon enough. With an array of good engine choices, magnetic ride control suspension, and one of the lightest curb weights in class things are looking good. Back to the CTS, they took a gamble on a coupe and wagon and I give them major props for that. They do need a real flagship though, as the XTS is not. The XTS is to the CTS as the ES350 is to the GS350. Similar in size, but different prices. As for Lincoln, as many of you know I'm a huge Ford Fan. Lincoln is on the right track but they still fall short of Cadillac's strides. That said, much of Ford's line-up is new or revamped which means the Lincoln revival is either make it or break it. Differentiation and model structure is key for Lincoln's success. From what I've gathered look for a new direction in 2013 for the brand. I expect the 3.5L EcoBoost to be a selling point for their future products and the brawny new 6.2L V8 in the new Navigator. I would love to see RWD manifest itself into the line-up, com'on version of Ford Falcon.. To it's credit, the MKZ Hybrid blows the now defunct Lexus HS250h out of the water.
Back to the Asian manufacturers, Lexus seems to be on a roll, and the worst part about it is the waiting. A new LS and IS are on the way to support the GS and ES, but time is a factor since the competition doesn't stand still. Lexus limiting the RX F-Sport production and marketing the product is not a wise decision. We have loads of people coming into the dealership to come see/buy one, and there are NONE. Not a single one has landed at the dealer. As long as F and F-Sport take performance to a new level and not just an appearance package, it will gain ground and become a household name. More coupes, verts, hatches, wagons, CUVs need to help fill the holes in the line-up compared to the competition. Bring the SC back! As for Infinti it's a mixed bag. Four SUVs and two car lines is already is wrong IMO. The Bionic Cheetach theme of the FX makes it unique but not so much love for the EX which needs to go the way of the dodo. The G is a great sedan, but it is long in the tooth and keep gaining weight. There's little things about the G that bug me like the cheapness of it, i.e. some chrome window trim and the door handle should not feel the way it does for a car it's price. The new M is nice, but disappointing when compared to the competition. If infiniti wants to be tier one they need to find a way to make a Q flagship more desirable than a 7, S, or A8 which is a tall order. Lastly, Acura... *sigh*. I feel like their 4 sedans are simple the same thing just in different packages (and prices). Physically all four are near the same length. There's honestly not much to say, no real definitive packages or powertrains and the materials used are almost not worthy of even an upscale title. RSX is gone and who knows if we'll ever see a coupe again. I hope for the sake of Honda/Acura's awesome heydays of past that they find their mojo. One last thing, to their credit, I'll correct you mike.
The TL with SH-AWD's 3.7L V6 pushes 305hp 
.
Coming back to Asian manufactures as a whole. Another reason European or more specifically the Germans - yes Jaguar we see what your doing keep it up - seem to be the benchmark is because Audi, BMW and MBZ are so similar that their competition drives similarities. Like Mustang and Camaro. V6 vs V6, GT vs SS, Boss 302 vs 1LE, GT500 vs ZL1, there is an answer to every problem for the Germans. 7 Series, S-Class, A8 all offer a turbo V8 (4.4L, 4.6L, 4.0L respectively) with over 400bhp. Lexus is the only Asian automaker holding the banner against European and American products, with little support from Acura and Infiniti. Sure they have some decent cars but where is the full line-up to battle toe to toe. The LFA is indeed a halo car meant to carry and innovate the Asian automakers. Imagine if the Acura NSX and Infniti emerg-e could drive alongside the LFA ready to do go up against Europe's and America's finest. That said BMW 3, 5, 7, Audi A4, A6, A8, MBZ C, E, S, Lexus IS, GS, LS. Acura and Infiniti???? Com'on build a real competitor and not some class straddlers.
Overall, I just think it's the mentality of the automakers depending on their region that really defines an automakers product. But certainly society, consumers, government, and business decisions also measure a vehicles success. I think to really compete the Europeans, both Asian and American manufacturers need to offer that hierarchy system to a T. They need to build a strong line-up that fills class segments including those niche models while offering that something extra that the competition doesn't. Sometimes keeping up with the Jone's is a must. Finding an equilibrium for performance, reliability, safety, technology, innovation, intuitiveness, design, handling and fuel economy is key to success in the automotive field.
I wouldn't say that Asian and American "Luxury" is lacking behind its European counterparts but rather the offering as a whole. Any manufacturer can put perforated double stitched leather and a high tech infotainment system into their cars. Rather it's how the automaker is perceived on a local and global scale. Now what I mean by this is European cars have always had an upper hand when it comes to most aspects of Automobiles whether its a history or pedigree. Parity between European, American, Japanese, and Korean makes is far from equal because of the way society classifies race/countries/origins etc.. Basically Europeans will always be deemed more prestigious and born with "pedigree". As long as people hold anything with a European name in high regard (i.e. the badge), there's not much American, Japanese, or Korean makes can do.
To that effect, each make is distinctly different in design (which is subjective) so a true comparison of a cars merits cannot be made based on that. Only stats and numbers, sizes and dimensions, performance and handling can be said to have any true basis for comparison of cars of the same segment i.e. IS, 3, C, A4 etc.. Point in case the Infiniti M is a very nice car, and has the technology that the others do. But honestly it doesn't "do it" for me, and IMO there are better options out there. Was the new M Infiniti's best effort comes into question. But much like my own opinion about the M it comes down to the styling of the vehicle. I think Infiniti like much of the automotive industry is in a design crisis looking for an identity. That and the way their models are set-up. The thing that BMW, MBZ, Audi, and Lexus do better than Lincoln, Cadillac, Acura, Infiniti is they have a full size line-up and not just a few models that compete in multiple segments (more on this in my conclusion). Rather they a dedicated and furthermore distinct from their lesser siblings like Toyota, VW etc.. The window switches from the G and MDX are straight out of a Nissan and Honda, which needs to stop if they want to be considered Tier 1 someday.
Back to my second paragraph, brand perception is key. History and pedigree play a major role in this. For those makes striving toward success, past mistakes have been known to hurt a company's future. Say the name of some past moniker and it may bring back bad memories even though the automaker is trying to break out of the mold and escape the ghosts that are associated with it. And for those up and comers, establishing oneself is oh so important. M, AMG, RS all started from day one at one point so when people knock F or V for example it's rather ignorant. Were talking about new programs with some, little, or even no history in motorsports and starting from the ground up. F cars and V series may not be "up to snuff" as their older counterparts, but as a first attempt at entering a high performance segment they are in the thick of competition. To that end perception, history, pedigree birth reputation which follows a make or model over the course of it's existence.
That said, I feel each continent is focused on different aspects of the industry. For example, Asian manufactures have a reputation of reliable and efficient vehicles that are also intuitive with their controls. Of course non are perfect, but they are atop their segment in regards to the aforementioned.
European automakers on the other hand have a rich pedigree of racing and motoring. Many of which are built with high quality materials and a high feature content. Their vehicles posses strong powertrains and awesome road manners. Unfortunately their flaws are (ie reliability) are covered up by cushy leather and the excellent suspensions that are comfy yet firm. So in most comparison tests European cars get the nod over their Asian and American counterparts. I like to compare the Europeans automakers to their hierarchy governments from which they came. Chess anyone? Offering a full stable to do battle with the next kingdom. For example BMW; 1, 3, 5, 6, 7 series, X1, X3, X5, X6, Z4 (did I miss any lol) and then of course the enemy; A3, A4, A5, A6, A7, A8 and Q5, Q7, TT, R8 and S/RS versions as well. I feel Europeans like to add depth to their models. Just how far down the rabbit hole can they go with a model. The BMW 3 series for example; 328i, 335i, 335d and M3 as top dog. Let's not forget other diesel and petrol models offered anywhere but stateside. Anyway point being European cars add sophistication and push their models to performance extremes while retaining that haughtiness that we so love to flaunt when were at a stop light.
American cars have come a long way (mostly in recent years) from their crude no frills beginnings. Of course that's not to eschew one of the greatest class of cars only American's could give way to; American muscle. Despite the sometimes questionable handling dynamics, the raw power surely puts a smile on ones face (thank you 60s-70s muscle, Ford GT, Chevy Corvette and Dodge Viper!!!). As far as reliability is concerned, despite the same poor reliability record for American and European cars alike, European models get the nod because of their pedigree and plushness. I would never change this though, because each brings their own charm to the automotive world. The difference between American V8 and European V8 soundtracks... I love'em both!! Coming back full circle your your topic Mike, I feel that each automaker (luxury) in particular for this discussion are focused on different things. Asian automakers in particular have brought fuel economy to the table as it has become a social norm. I've seen the Europeans approach this in a different manner by downsizing engines (M5 V10 to V8TT etc..). I can't say much for American luxury at the moment. They are trying I'll give them that. Cadillac in particular, they're offering V models to most of their line-up but they need more structure in their vehicles offered. Personally I think they need to work one model at a time. The CTS is good and getting better, and the ATS looks promising. A 3-series beater? We'll know soon enough. With an array of good engine choices, magnetic ride control suspension, and one of the lightest curb weights in class things are looking good. Back to the CTS, they took a gamble on a coupe and wagon and I give them major props for that. They do need a real flagship though, as the XTS is not. The XTS is to the CTS as the ES350 is to the GS350. Similar in size, but different prices. As for Lincoln, as many of you know I'm a huge Ford Fan. Lincoln is on the right track but they still fall short of Cadillac's strides. That said, much of Ford's line-up is new or revamped which means the Lincoln revival is either make it or break it. Differentiation and model structure is key for Lincoln's success. From what I've gathered look for a new direction in 2013 for the brand. I expect the 3.5L EcoBoost to be a selling point for their future products and the brawny new 6.2L V8 in the new Navigator. I would love to see RWD manifest itself into the line-up, com'on version of Ford Falcon.. To it's credit, the MKZ Hybrid blows the now defunct Lexus HS250h out of the water.
Back to the Asian manufacturers, Lexus seems to be on a roll, and the worst part about it is the waiting. A new LS and IS are on the way to support the GS and ES, but time is a factor since the competition doesn't stand still. Lexus limiting the RX F-Sport production and marketing the product is not a wise decision. We have loads of people coming into the dealership to come see/buy one, and there are NONE. Not a single one has landed at the dealer. As long as F and F-Sport take performance to a new level and not just an appearance package, it will gain ground and become a household name. More coupes, verts, hatches, wagons, CUVs need to help fill the holes in the line-up compared to the competition. Bring the SC back! As for Infinti it's a mixed bag. Four SUVs and two car lines is already is wrong IMO. The Bionic Cheetach theme of the FX makes it unique but not so much love for the EX which needs to go the way of the dodo. The G is a great sedan, but it is long in the tooth and keep gaining weight. There's little things about the G that bug me like the cheapness of it, i.e. some chrome window trim and the door handle should not feel the way it does for a car it's price. The new M is nice, but disappointing when compared to the competition. If infiniti wants to be tier one they need to find a way to make a Q flagship more desirable than a 7, S, or A8 which is a tall order. Lastly, Acura... *sigh*. I feel like their 4 sedans are simple the same thing just in different packages (and prices). Physically all four are near the same length. There's honestly not much to say, no real definitive packages or powertrains and the materials used are almost not worthy of even an upscale title. RSX is gone and who knows if we'll ever see a coupe again. I hope for the sake of Honda/Acura's awesome heydays of past that they find their mojo. One last thing, to their credit, I'll correct you mike.
Acura, well they still haven't figured out you can actually go past 300hp
.Coming back to Asian manufactures as a whole. Another reason European or more specifically the Germans - yes Jaguar we see what your doing keep it up - seem to be the benchmark is because Audi, BMW and MBZ are so similar that their competition drives similarities. Like Mustang and Camaro. V6 vs V6, GT vs SS, Boss 302 vs 1LE, GT500 vs ZL1, there is an answer to every problem for the Germans. 7 Series, S-Class, A8 all offer a turbo V8 (4.4L, 4.6L, 4.0L respectively) with over 400bhp. Lexus is the only Asian automaker holding the banner against European and American products, with little support from Acura and Infiniti. Sure they have some decent cars but where is the full line-up to battle toe to toe. The LFA is indeed a halo car meant to carry and innovate the Asian automakers. Imagine if the Acura NSX and Infniti emerg-e could drive alongside the LFA ready to do go up against Europe's and America's finest. That said BMW 3, 5, 7, Audi A4, A6, A8, MBZ C, E, S, Lexus IS, GS, LS. Acura and Infiniti???? Com'on build a real competitor and not some class straddlers.
Overall, I just think it's the mentality of the automakers depending on their region that really defines an automakers product. But certainly society, consumers, government, and business decisions also measure a vehicles success. I think to really compete the Europeans, both Asian and American manufacturers need to offer that hierarchy system to a T. They need to build a strong line-up that fills class segments including those niche models while offering that something extra that the competition doesn't. Sometimes keeping up with the Jone's is a must. Finding an equilibrium for performance, reliability, safety, technology, innovation, intuitiveness, design, handling and fuel economy is key to success in the automotive field.
07-20-12, 04:22 PM
#33
how so as in?
the current s class, the cls, the sl, bmw 5, 6, 7, i think they are all very stylish and slick on the outside. interior they have been huge step up as well with great features / technologies / details, unlike years ago. but the drive is numb down quite a bit imho
on the other hand, lexus exterior doesn't feel as exciting, but the drive is a lot more exciting. i still LOVE how the 4gs drives
the current s class, the cls, the sl, bmw 5, 6, 7, i think they are all very stylish and slick on the outside. interior they have been huge step up as well with great features / technologies / details, unlike years ago. but the drive is numb down quite a bit imho
on the other hand, lexus exterior doesn't feel as exciting, but the drive is a lot more exciting. i still LOVE how the 4gs drives
07-20-12, 10:24 PM
#34
07-21-12, 08:52 PM
#36
If we go by the thread title subject of Luxury then no surprise. However looking at Euro vs American vs Asian makes as a whole then yes it was an odd omission. The reason I skipped over the GTR is because it's main competition is pricy exotics which sell in small numbers. It may have the performance and bargain price but it is nowhere near the posh/plushness of its competitors. Same thing can be said of the Vette. Coming back to my post #32, because the GTR isn't true luxury nor made in large numbers it's hard to say that the GTR has changed the industry. It's done wonders in it's respective segment, but at the end of the day Euro fanboys will always turn their nose to the GTR because of the Nissan badge. The LFA on the other hand (not only luxury!) carries a banner of class and sophistication that only Euro's held to this point. Not only was it born in a time of downsizing engines and racing programs, and fuel economy regulations, it also established a marque for Leuxs. Both F and F-Sport. Revolutionizing the entire company image in many things such as design, engineering, technology etc.. It's a banner for an entire brand and country of origin. If Acura and Infiniti can add more models that do the same, they could stand strong and united against global competition. Of course though again, at the end of the day it comes down to the badge and the mentality that people hold towards it.
07-22-12, 01:38 AM
#37
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It is a fact that Euro luxury brands are giving us more high performance vehicles than American/Asian luxury brands do. Whereas american/asian brands are doing much better in non-luxury area don't you think? Especially in the U.S. market, what non-luxury Euro brands are here except Volkswagen and Fiat, which only churns out one car? Everyone has his or her own strength. Look at Kia, at least they are giving us good looking vehicles now, isn't it an improvement?
10-17-12, 05:28 PM
#38
It is a fact that Euro luxury brands are giving us more high performance vehicles than American/Asian luxury brands do. Whereas american/asian brands are doing much better in non-luxury area don't you think? Especially in the U.S. market, what non-luxury Euro brands are here except Volkswagen and Fiat, which only churns out one car? Everyone has his or her own strength. Look at Kia, at least they are giving us good looking vehicles now, isn't it an improvement?
Thankfully the new LF-LC in Opal Blue is signs of things to come at least from Lexus. Infiniti emerg-e and Acura NSX are still way too far off. Lexus is bearing the flag for Asian luxury manufacturers. While Cadillac just introduced the ATS and meanwhile Lincoln is going the (like Acura) "Smart Luxury" route.
10-17-12, 05:31 PM
#39
On one hand, Lexus is probably wondering if they have enough funds from the budget to expand the F lineup beyond the IS-F (especially with an unfavorable currency exchange rate along with the budget that was used for the LFA).
Still, I do hope they push through with the expansion (hopefully starting with a >500hp GS-F).
P.S.
With that said, 1SICK has a point with the Germans on how they're expanding their performance vehicle lineup like crazy.
In fact, it's not only the Germans. Even the likes of British manufacturers like Jaguar are following suit (heck, they're thinking of XFR-S sweet jesus).
Just madness......
Still, I do hope they push through with the expansion (hopefully starting with a >500hp GS-F).
P.S.
With that said, 1SICK has a point with the Germans on how they're expanding their performance vehicle lineup like crazy.
In fact, it's not only the Germans. Even the likes of British manufacturers like Jaguar are following suit (heck, they're thinking of XFR-S sweet jesus).
Just madness......
10-17-12, 08:28 PM
#40
Agree with this statement.
Thankfully the new LF-LC in Opal Blue is signs of things to come at least from Lexus. Infiniti emerg-e and Acura NSX are still way too far off. Lexus is bearing the flag for Asian luxury manufacturers. While Cadillac just introduced the ATS and meanwhile Lincoln is going the (like Acura) "Smart Luxury" route.
Thankfully the new LF-LC in Opal Blue is signs of things to come at least from Lexus. Infiniti emerg-e and Acura NSX are still way too far off. Lexus is bearing the flag for Asian luxury manufacturers. While Cadillac just introduced the ATS and meanwhile Lincoln is going the (like Acura) "Smart Luxury" route.
:-)
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