Och

iTrader: (3)

I dont know about that. I'm in construction, and I've bought composite building panels from a factory in S. Korea for $10 per sq/ft, fabricated and shipped. A company in NJ quoted me $25 sq/ft for identical product.

LexFather

10th highest among major economies May 09
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-199775614.html

Germany is the highest.....

Seems S.Koreans used to avg 54 hours of work a week.....its dropped some though..

Och, what helps them with exports is the "Won" trades great for them.

TRDFantasy

Once again, you ignored most of what I said. You seem to be quite good at doing that.

If you feel that way about Toyota, Mercedes in your eyes must really lack innovation. In fact, a lot of automakers must be lacking in innovation based on your standards.

Honda did not "invent" SH-AWD. It is a marketing name for a torque-vectoring AWD system, and torque-vectoring AWD systems existed before Honda came along. Honda also partnered with Borg-Warner to develop the SH-AWD system. They did not develop it alone.

Here are some of the following innovations and new technologies the LS400 brought in 1989:

- tilt-telescoping steering wheel with built-in SRS airbag
- electro-chromic rear view mirror
- power adjustable shoulder seat belts
- electro-luminescent/holographic gauges

Since then, Toyota has brought many innovations and new technologies to the car market. To think otherwise is quite foolish and naive.

The G Man

Lol, you are just naming toys and eye candy, hardly automotive innovations. The only thing on your list that is worth mentioning is the airbag, BTW, the 1st airbag in production cars was introduced almost 20 years before Lexus even exist.

Och

iTrader: (3)

Well what do you consider a new automotive technology? And how do you define new technology?

Pretty much any technology you take, there was something 20 years ago that was doing the same thing. Very few things are original. There were half assed airbags in the 60ies, there were half assed active headlights in the 60ies, there were even half assed luminous gauges in the 60ies. Variable timing technology also existed since the beginning of last century and direct injection was always present on diesels. The fact is, internal combustion engine hasnt really changed much since its invention and the general principle of automobile hasnt fundamentally changed either. Most have an engine and four wheels. Until someone invents a car that uses anti-gravity instead of wheels and witchcraft instead of engine, its the little things that count as innovations.

The G Man

How about the 1st production car airbag, 1st production active headlights, 1st production variable timing technology, 1st gas direct injection, the 1st turbo charge or super chargers in a production car, the 1st production hybrid, the 1st stability system, the list goes on and on.

Och

iTrader: (3)

Well, theres a difference between 1st production and 1st production that actually works. Most technologies that you've listed existed before any of Japanese automaker became major auto makers. And the reason they became so successful is because they were using advanced technologies in their vehicles. Things like variable valve timing, DOHC, fuel injection, direct injection, hybrids, active headlights, luminous gauges, rack and pinion, and many more exist because the Japanese made them work, made them affordable, and made them mass produced and readily available.

Think about it, does it matter to Joe Customer that some once upon a time, and a galaxy far away some dude created a production engine that had variable technology, and there were 20 units of that engine made to be used in tractors on a local farm. I don't think so. But when that technology was available in practically every Honda, thats far more important. Same with everything else.

And on top of everything, most "innovations" weren't invented by automakers anyway. Most of them were invented by independent engineers, and licensed by automakers. They just merely make the technology more and more advanced, and this is where Japanese manufacturers always had the prowess.

The G Man

That was discussed in another thread as well. Those technology always worked but they were not relaible. Thats where Toyota really shines, they are able to take someone's technology and improve on it and make it more reliable.

Och

iTrader: (3)

Not only unreliable, but not well implemented, unpolished, unavailable and too expensive.

Like I said, if you dig through history, you can discredit just about anyones invention. There are some inventions that were blatantly stolen from someone else, there are inventions that had analogs in the past but they just werent patented, and so on.

I dont know if it makes sense, but Japanese often made the best implementation of existing technologies. Best variable timing, best hybrids, best electronics and so on. Combined together it often makes for best overall cars.

bruce van

It's pretty interesting that all of this discussion has been sparked by a spy photo of an Elantra. It just shows you how serious Hyundai is and people are finally paying attention to what they are doing.

To hell with innovation. It's really not important to me if they aren't the first to come up with an idea. What is important is the end result. Give me a good looking car that is a good value and performs well. Looks like Hyundai is hitting all of these points in a lot of their cars these days.

A coworker just bought a new Elantra and I was very impressed with the car, for what he paid. If Hyundai builds better Elantras, Toyota and Honda will have to build better Corollas and Civics. WIN WIN!

Och

iTrader: (3)

Well thats true, but if everyone follows Hundai and says the hell with innovation, it will be like 90ies GM all over again.

The G Man

I think we are just talking in circles. Like I said, the Japanese are very good at making a existing technology better.

Och

iTrader: (3)

MUCH better.

/thread

The G Man

Bingo, Toyota have follow this formula in the pass for years and have been very successful in doing so. Hyundai will also follow that formula and so will other start up auto industries in China and India. Dollar for dollar, innovations in the auto industries is not cost effective. It is much cheaper just to wait a few years and copy and improve upon other people's designs.

Och

iTrader: (3)

Uh, no. This is where you are wrong. Toyota doesnt wait for anybody, at least not in the last 2 decades. From the very start the LS was far more advanced than MB's S class, and continues to do so. LS600h is still the worlds most advanced car.

Theres a fundamental difference between Toyota and Hundai. Toyota spends tons of money on R&D, whether its developing new tech or improving on existing. Huindai simply copies everything without improving it one bit.