2011 Hyundai Equus Preview
#76
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That is nice and all taking a look into the future but like it or not there is only one Coke.
And maybe they will become Coke at some point.
But each market only has so much room before saturation kills everyone. We are already seeing a couple other auto makers looking to pull out, the end of brands such as Saturn along with many others.
The market is not going to support 12312313 automakers and just like banks they will consolidate or simply pack up.
So am I worried about China and India bringing cars here? Nope
And maybe they will become Coke at some point.
But each market only has so much room before saturation kills everyone. We are already seeing a couple other auto makers looking to pull out, the end of brands such as Saturn along with many others.
The market is not going to support 12312313 automakers and just like banks they will consolidate or simply pack up.
So am I worried about China and India bringing cars here? Nope
Also on the topic of "things change", trade policies for various countries change. Who knows what the trade policies of various countries will be like in the future? For example, Chinese cars have been on-sale in certain Eastern European markets for years now, but they have yet to go on-sale in North America.
Tata is trying to bring the Nano to the US but has already warned it will be much more expensive than the basic model sold in India due to all the regulations and requirements Tata must meet in order to sell it here in North America. The irony is that the US Nano will cost close to the price of a base model Hyundai Accent.
The truth is, when (and if) Chinese and Indian automakers arrive in the US, they will compete with each other at the bottom of the market. The real volume in the auto market is in the middle, a middle which is firmly occupied and fiercely defended by established brands.
Look at Toyota. For many years now it has tried to take on the American automakers in the full-size truck market and has so far failed to do major damage in the market. Even amongst American automakers, the Ford F-Series has been the sales king for decades.
We can also look at Lexus. Despite all the success that Toyota has achieved with Lexus, it's still the #4 luxury brand worldwide in terms of volume and many people still do not perceive Lexus to be equal to Benz, BMW, or Audi.
Despite all the recent success Hyundai has achieved, they are still not a full-line automaker, and they've been in the US market for 24 years.
#77
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
But each market only has so much room before saturation kills everyone.
We are already seeing a couple other auto makers looking to pull out, the end of brands such as Saturn along with many others.
The market is not going to support 12312313 automakers and just like banks they will consolidate or simply pack up.
So am I worried about China and India bringing cars here? Nope
how easily though we dismiss countries like China, where a vast amount of the world's most sophisticated electronics are made, including iphones.
and brands are independent of countries - it's not unthinkable at all that bmw will begin making cars in china for EXPORT, at which point we can say that's still a bmw, but ok, it's also a CHINESE made car, the brand is basically irrelevant except for marketing purposes.
The auto market is not that old yet, but automakers like Benz and Ford have survived competition for at least 100 years. Benz and Ford also continue to be regarded as good brands worldwide.
so when i say india and china are coming, they may well come as trojan horses through brands we know and love.
Also on the topic of "things change", trade policies for various countries change. Who knows what the trade policies of various countries will be like in the future? For example, Chinese cars have been on-sale in certain Eastern European markets for years now, but they have yet to go on-sale in North America.
Tata is trying to bring the Nano to the US but has already warned it will be much more expensive than the basic model sold in India due to all the regulations and requirements Tata must meet in order to sell it here in North America. The irony is that the US Nano will cost close to the price of a base model Hyundai Accent.
Tata is trying to bring the Nano to the US but has already warned it will be much more expensive than the basic model sold in India due to all the regulations and requirements Tata must meet in order to sell it here in North America. The irony is that the US Nano will cost close to the price of a base model Hyundai Accent.
The truth is, when (and if) Chinese and Indian automakers arrive in the US, they will compete with each other at the bottom of the market.
The real volume in the auto market is in the middle, a middle which is firmly occupied and fiercely defended by established brands.
Look at Toyota. For many years now it has tried to take on the American automakers in the full-size truck market and has so far failed to do major damage in the market. Even amongst American automakers, the Ford F-Series has been the sales king for decades.
We can also look at Lexus. Despite all the success that Toyota has achieved with Lexus, it's still the #4 luxury brand worldwide in terms of volume and many people still do not perceive Lexus to be equal to Benz, BMW, or Audi.
Despite all the recent success Hyundai has achieved, they are still not a full-line automaker, and they've been in the US market for 24 years.
#78
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
It's on my list....has been for some time, just waiting for Hyundai to release it in the American market. But, right now, it's unclear just how Hyundai is going to market it, or if it will be in stock at Hyundai shops. It could (?) turn out to be a special-order car only.
Last edited by mmarshall; 08-23-10 at 09:58 PM.
#79
Lexus Test Driver
Paul its more than my one bad experience, and my analogy of Coke like any brand is that there is usually a hand full of top dogs that eat up a majority of the market and the rest fight for the scraps. In this country anyway, there isn’t enough room for 10 top dogs so I am not worried about India or China in the auto market. 50 years from now? who knows, but I wont care by then anyway
#80
Guest
Posts: n/a
Paul its more than my one bad experience, and my analogy of Coke like any brand is that there is usually a hand full of top dogs that eat up a majority of the market and the rest fight for the scraps. In this country anyway, there isn’t enough room for 10 top dogs so I am not worried about India or China in the auto market. 50 years from now? who knows, but I wont care by then anyway
#84
People said the same thing about Lexus in 89. "that much for a Toyota???". I would rather get a benz. In the end its kind of like a person looking for work with no experience. You have to start at some point with no experience. That changes quickly though. Just like Lexus they just need a small opening. I just wish their marketing was better and they separated the brands, but if they did it this way its because they dumped tons of money into market analysis
When will Hyundai learn that you can't offer cheap, bottom of the line cars with high-end luxury cars under the same brand? They need to either pull a Toyota (with the Lexus brand), or market their luxury cars under another name.
Many, many people love the Hyundai Genesis; yet they won't buy it because it has the Hyundai name plastered all over it.
Many, many people love the Hyundai Genesis; yet they won't buy it because it has the Hyundai name plastered all over it.
All in all, considering the state of the economy, the Genesis sedan (not so much for the coupe) has been a decent success for Hyundai, despite the branding issue (keep in mind that the cost of establishing a new nameplate and dealer network would have added at $5-7K to the sticker price of the Genesis sedan which would have mitigated any increase in sales from having a lux nameplate).
The LS400 on the exterior only really shared Benz cues from the front (E Class more than S Class); the side and rear were not really Benz at all.
Otoh, the LS430 had an eery resemblance to the S Class of the time (which is why the chief of design at Mercedes actually spoke out, a rarity in the design world).
Also, the % of 2011 Sonata going to fleet is around 8-9%, which is about the same as Toyota's overall fleet %.
If Hyundai had made more SE and Limited models over the past few months, they would have been able to sell them easily (for July, Hyundai manufactured 16 more units of the Sonata than they sold), and consequently has adjusted their production settings to make more SE and LTD trims and less GLS.
As for depreciation, Hyundai has improved vastly (esp. for the newer models) and according to ALS, is in the top 10 for residual value (#8, ahead of Ford).
Hyundai supporters don't want to hear this, let alone let others hear this.
Fact is, this is true and I've observed this for years now with Hyundai. It's style over substance. Initial quality has improved for Hyundai, but we have yet to see proof that very long-term quality has improved.
A perfect example of this was a Hyundai recall made last year regarding rusted subframes. Many 1999-2004 Sonatas along with 2001-2004 XG300s were recalled for severe subframe rust problems. For a 2004 car, this is inexcusable. There were separate recalls for 2001-2003 Elantras, 2001-2003 Tiburons and 2001-2003 Sante Fe models for severe (suspension) rust problems as well.
You get what you pay for. You're not going to get Lexus quality for Hyundai money, or better-than-Toyota quality for super-low prices. It just doesn't work like that. By quality, in this case I am specifically referring to long-term quality.
Fact is, this is true and I've observed this for years now with Hyundai. It's style over substance. Initial quality has improved for Hyundai, but we have yet to see proof that very long-term quality has improved.
A perfect example of this was a Hyundai recall made last year regarding rusted subframes. Many 1999-2004 Sonatas along with 2001-2004 XG300s were recalled for severe subframe rust problems. For a 2004 car, this is inexcusable. There were separate recalls for 2001-2003 Elantras, 2001-2003 Tiburons and 2001-2003 Sante Fe models for severe (suspension) rust problems as well.
You get what you pay for. You're not going to get Lexus quality for Hyundai money, or better-than-Toyota quality for super-low prices. It just doesn't work like that. By quality, in this case I am specifically referring to long-term quality.
Should Hyundai have done a better job understanding the copious amount of salt used in the cold-weather areas of the US? You bet.
But let's not gloss over the fact that for a couple of decades, the Japanese makes were commonly referred to as Japanese "crap/rusted tin cans."
Furthermore, despite having decades of experience more than Hyundai on American roads, I seem to recall Toyota still having corrosion issues (Tundra, Tacoma), as well as other Japanese makes.
2002-2005 Altima and 2004-2005 Maxima Prone to Subframe Corrosion
Long-time car owners are generally used to the way a car starts to creak or knock as it ages. If you own one of these Nissan cars, however, that car noise could be more serious than you think. Nissan Altimas and Maximas
in "salt states" are prone to corrosion of the rear subframe bushings and in some cases, even cracking of the car subframe. Nissan is aware of these problems and has issued a service bulletin and extended the Altima and Maxima subframe warranty. Don't get caught paying big bucks for a car repair you're entitled to for free.
MODELS AFFECTED: 2002-2005 Nissan Altima and 2004-2005 Nissan Maxima vehicles in "salt states".
Long-time car owners are generally used to the way a car starts to creak or knock as it ages. If you own one of these Nissan cars, however, that car noise could be more serious than you think. Nissan Altimas and Maximas
in "salt states" are prone to corrosion of the rear subframe bushings and in some cases, even cracking of the car subframe. Nissan is aware of these problems and has issued a service bulletin and extended the Altima and Maxima subframe warranty. Don't get caught paying big bucks for a car repair you're entitled to for free.
MODELS AFFECTED: 2002-2005 Nissan Altima and 2004-2005 Nissan Maxima vehicles in "salt states".
Last edited by YEH; 09-10-10 at 02:20 PM.
#85
The Equus and Phaeton have a similar issue. A horrible and laughable dealer network. The Phaeton never got the support it needed. Both brands are known here for selling cheap econo cars. Both brands dealerships lag behind in ratings. The Phaeton only had a small number of qualified techs across the country and parts were hard to come by. It only helped the sales disaster the car sadly was (I've stated many times it is an incredible car).
Thus Hyundai trying to meet buyers at their homes so they don't have to go to their horrible dealerships.
Thus Hyundai trying to meet buyers at their homes so they don't have to go to their horrible dealerships.
The at home sales and service is just a higher end of service.
As for the Phaeton, it failed more so b/c -
1. it brought absolutely zero to the value equation
2. had to compete against an Audi stablemate which, itself, was struggling w/ sales
3. looked way too much like an overgrown Passat
Not really, the resale on the Genesis sedan is pretty good (better than anything from the domestics and better than the Infiniti M).
Which still severely undercut the market.
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09-30-10 03:59 PM