GS430 Tires and Front End Woes Continue
 

My Tires and Front End Woes Continue

My 06 GS430 just got new tires, new Electronic Steering Rack and Front End Alignment. All work by dealer except tires.
I noticed a difference right away with the new parts and just thought the tires grab and provide better feedback from the road than the old Yokohama tires. However I believe I have a problem. The car drifts to the right and most noticeable at highway speeds. Dang it.. I have had issues with radial pull/drift in the past, and this drift is not as bad. Three to five seconds and I must grab the wheel to keep it from changing lanes or going off the road. Not sure if it is getting worse or I’m just focusing on it more. This is driving me nuts.
I contacted the dealer and as expected they say the alignment is in spec:
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h1...s/IMGP5658.jpg

and as expected they recommend swapping the front tires to see what happens. Ugg…
Looks like another call to DT. If it turns out to be the tire/tires I will be extremely disappointed in Michelin Pilot A/S Sport Plus..

Tested my wife’s GS300 with 17” wheels that has new <1000 miles Toyo Versado LX and they track straight and an arrow on the same road. If it is the tires, should I have them yank all four and get something else? Is this more common than in the past? Second time with this type of issue in three sets of tires.
I looked at the Tire Rack Diagnostic test and it seems like this will take awhile sitting in the queue at DT. http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tirete....jsp?techid=12
I did not know a rear bad tire would cause a pull. Any suggestions on how to handle this issue?

Any chance the steering rack is causing this?
Thanks

not if your wifes tires are fine...

I've never ever seen a rear tire cause a pull...

The tried and true way that works every time I've ran into a radial pull issue is to start off by rotating the side of the car that it pulls to... I would say 80% of radial pulls are caused by the front tire on the side the vehicle is pulling... the other 20% could be better described as a radial push, as they are on the front corner opposite the direction the vehicle is pulling...

If, for instance, you rotate the right side of the vehicle and the pull goes away, then the bad tire is the one now on the right rear... if it stays, then pretty good chance it's the left front tire... the way to solve for sure is to now rotate the left front tire to the left rear... pull still there, you've got an alignment/steering problem... pull is gone only after the left side rotation, then rotate the right side back to where it was to eliminate it... should still track straight and if it does, then you now know the tire now on the LR is the culprit....

you might just have a car that is more susceptible to tire issues than others... no real explanation for it other than wear and tear..

I would first try what I said above and if its just the one tire, then have it swapped out... if you can't get it to go away, then I would switch tires...

Part of testing done. DT uses a different method than the one listed on TR.
Anyway, they rotated the right side (side of the drift) to the rear. Still have the same drift. DT now says to rotate the left side. If still drifts not the tire. I see this getting into a war with the dealer saying tires :boxing:

It appears to me they only adjusted toe on the alignment. Can the machine be out of cal? Can toe out cause drift?

Discount is using the same way I have always used to check for radial pull (as I outlined above)... they are correct, if it still drifts, after rotating the left side, then its not the tires... toe will not cause drift, it will cause an uneven steering wheel which some will perceive as drift, but it will not cause a drift... I am pretty sure you have the correct definition of drift, which is when you let go of the steering wheel, the vehicle pulls to one side... the perception of drift that is related to toe is when someone holds the wheel straight and the vehicle tracks to one side, but if you hold the wheel a little crooked, it drives straight - that/s an obvious toe issue, not a true pull

It's always good fun when the numbers don't add up on alignments...

If the rotation of the left side tires does not fix the issue, then you simply take your receipts to the dealer of the rotations and explain you have a pulling problem. It is possible to have a pulling problem even though the numbers are good on an alignment... It is possible your vehicle needs a little more cross caster or cross camber than the typical GS, or that yours is just a little more sensitive than others. Either way, it's up to the dealer. If I recall, you had the tires on prior to the alignment.

What happened to the test drive that the tech got paid for to verify the alignment when done with the work? Even if it was pulling immediately after an alignment, they should have brought it to your attention that it could be a tire issue, and given you solutions. It sounds to me like the tech ignored the pull and just handed you the keys. I will not crucify him just yet though, as if it's very slight, he might not have noticed it depending on length of the test drive and quality of the roads around the dealership.

The drift is not as bad as the one I had after a rotation with my first set of Yoko’s. Before I got the new tires, there was zero drift just like my wife’s GS300. Is possible the tech did not notice it or just was not paying attention?? I just can not say for sure it was not there between getting the new tires and getting the steering rack/alignment done. It may have been and I might have thought it was the gripping of the tires. Only drove about 30 miles between getting the tires and work at the dealer.

I will know shortly as I will be stopping back by DT to get the left side rotated.

Can the dealer’s alignment machine be out of spec or the tech not get the attachments flush with wheels? If rear toe is out, could that cause a push?
thanks

rear toe being out would cause the steering wheel to be crooked too, as the thrust angle would be off and the car would dog track down the road (the rear would be to one side even though the car seemed to be going straight)... older trucks sometimes do this, rear wheel drive vehicles that have been in an accident, and drag link rear suspension vehicles that have had frame damage might do this if there is no way to adjust the rear, they just set the toe on the front to compensate - the result is the steering wheel is centered, the vehicle doesn't pull, but if you were to look at the car/truck from the rear, it would appear to be going down the road crooked...

the one factor I didn't take into account is laziness... when I ran my shop, I made sure I knew all the shortcuts and cheats so that I could watch for them and make sure they weren't happening (the ones that mattered at least)...

for instance, on an alignment machine... some cars its a pain in the ass to set camber / caster... if its close, a lazy tech might "adjust" a sensor so that it sits on the wheel differently and gives a different reading... One slower day, I did an alignment on my car and tried just this. you can get a few degrees of camber and tons of toe just by moving the sensor so that it doesn't sit flush against the wheel... you can even get it to move a little just by pushing on it a little... on certain sensors, wind is even a factor, they are that sensitive...

on the newer alignment machines, they are so accurate because they self calibrate every single time the car is on the rack... they even account for a sensor that isn't totally straight, however, if the head isn't on the wheel 100%, there is no telling what you'll get...

report back after the rotation...

Okay, the left side rotation results.
It still drifted to the right, but might not have been as bad. The wind started picking up so I think that might/could of some effect.
Went back and let them know it still was drifting but not sure if it was as bad. He went and talked to the store manager (his picture was on the wall) and they discussed some things. Came back out and said they will replace the front to tires. Kinda surprised me. After that I drove and it is better but I’m not sure it is 100%. Wind can still be a factor. I found it odd about what tires they replaced. The two tires that were originally in the back are the ones that got replaced. Do you find that odd?

I called the lead tech at the dealer. Talked to him a while about the alignment. He was not sure when the last time the machine was calibrated but would check with his maintenance guy but he said they have not had any other complaints. We talked awhile about the readings and discussed what ifs about the attachments and if they were not placed correctly. He said the machine will adjust and self calibrate for most issues and even compensate for bent rims. Also said there were a few things that could throw off the readings but when that happens the readings are really off the wall. He was saying toe was about the only thing they can adjust and maybe one other adjustment on the rear, but the front is fixed on these cars. He said they may be able to move the cage a little, but my readings are really good and that these cars have so much caster it would have to be off like a degree before any noticeable drift would occur. I was at another Lexus dealer and you could see their two alignment machines from the service area. Looked like it was real easy to adjust the toe.. a couple of wrenches.

We talked about the cross measurement and he said those look really good. He said they would check it again and also check to see if any brake sticking issues are occurring. I was hoping they had two machines but they only have one. He said Michelin tires are usually really good. He said years ago they would get batches of Goodyear tires that were bad.

He talked about putting my wife’s 17” on the gs430 to see what results I get. Would a bigger and wider tire give more pronounced results?

The wind looks like it is dying down, so I may go back out for another test drive.

Forgot to mention, one tire that was replaced required no weights added this time for balance. I wonder what the odds are on that happing.

Happens quite often actually...

the machine will not self compensate for a sensor installed incorrectly... one time I did not get the sensor all the way on the wheel (tire was wide making it hard to get the sensor on the wheel all the way)... Got it best I could, thinking the same, that it would compensate for it... did all the procedures, checked caster, and the readings that came back were skewed - farther than I thought possible just by looking at the tires.... I reset the alignment heads, made fully sure I got them flush (a rubber mallet does wonders), and rechecked... this time all but toe was perfect... Had I not instinctively known that the numbers looked a little odd, there is no telling what the car would have done after the alignment..

I would try the wifes tires again and see what happens... a wider tire is more likely to tramline (follow grooves of road), but thats about it...

Still not right!
 

Went to the dealer:

The lead tech, diagnostic tech and I went for a test drive. Good news is that they said: it is drifting. Good news stops there.

Diagnostic tech tells me there is an electronic calibration procedure to match the steering column with the rack. For some reason it is not mentioned in the TSB. He has a call into his field rep to find out why. When we were test driving he noticed the steering wheel was not straight, but he said the computer calibration should take care of that by matching the wheel with the rack. Did the calibration and the drift was still there but wheel is straight. I suspected the toe is off and they no that is not the case. Now, they do what DT did not want to do. They swapped the front tires for testing. Now the car either drives straight or drifts slightly to the left. Not as bad as it does to right when the tires are in the right direction.

That means I have received 6 bad tires. Dealer says they deal with this quite often but is rare for Michelins. Since they are directional, options are not there. I will be calling Michelin! This is just not right. Either these tires are a bad batch or the tolerances are not tight enough for this car.
Your thoughts?

damn, I feel for ya...

what about having the Michelins pulled off completely and going into a different brand...

some years ago, the Pilot Sport A/S's were not approved for use on Mercedes Benz's because of drifiting problems... turns out every single Pilot Sport A/S was built in such a way as to cause a radial pull... long story short, it has something to do with the alignment of the belts in the tires and it being much more sensitive on that particular car versus any other car.... My location was at least partially responsible for the TSB that stated it, as we had a high percentage of cars that were Mercedes and Mercedes owners also tended to like Michelin... after quite a few complete sets sent back with our causation, Michelin released a TSB to the same effect...

Your vehicle might have a similar issue that is not curable by just changing out tires...

That was what I was wondering if it was just the A/S sport tires.
I called Michelin and they said the tire was “approved” for my car. Customer Care does not know much about particulars.

I asked why PS2s have a different part number for Audi, MB, BMW and I could not get a detailed answer. No PS2 specific tire for Lexus :( I wonder if the pull is the reason?
Any issue with PS2s since they are not directional? My rims are going to look like hell from all of this.

Michelin called the tech at the dealer and then came back on line and stated they will replace all four tires with whatever I want within Michelin, BFG or Uniroyal tire. What is the best Michelin tire or do you think I should go to a different brand? The dealer hints about me getting it done there, however I don’t think I want the dealer to do it. I have used DT for years and the fact I have already purchased road hazard from them. Maybe another DT store though.


Another thing that has me upset is the diagnostic tech was driving and said the steering wheel was not centered. Okay, I said the toe must be off. He said no, that this car has a program setting that can set the steering wheel where you want but did not know why it was not part of the steering rack TSB to align it (humm). He hooked up the computer that disengages the wheel from the rack and moved it. They did that and hosed it. Now if you hold the wheel straight it drives to the left. I thought they would of put it on the alignment machine and made sure the wheels were straight before doing that. They just moved it a tad to the right (their words). OMG!!! :egads:

Tomorrow I’m going back and making them check the alignment and make the wheel straight on the rack. When on the alignment machine, do the get the front wheels pointing perfectly straight with the frame and lock them so they do not move? This is about the only way I can see them getting the wheel straight with their ECU computer tool that disengages the steering wheel. He just wanted me to drive and have him move it a little until I thought it was straight.. NOOOO.

Can you say spitting nails.

Car was put back on Alignment Machine. All reading still green but are a little different.
Very strange that such a high dollar tire (6 of them behave the same). It appears the only non run flat option with Michelin is the PS2. Not sure I should take the chance with this tire??

Still trying to decide what to do.
Here is the reading after I requested another quick alignment check:
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h1...s/IMGP5662.jpg

I noticed the cross camber is almost on the most negative side of the range. Reading Tire Rack alignment information, is it correct that this should actually help a drift to the right?
Also the Cross Caster just a tad positive with zero being the midpoint. Again this should help right? I think Tire Rack stated .25 deg pos though.

Michelin has given me the option of picking any Michelin tire I want. I have not talked to DT yet and not sure if they will offer another brand. I only have seen positive reviews for the PS2, but sure like the tread warranty of the all season sense most of my driving is highway. If I leave it as is, will this only get worse as the tire ages? Lexus tech hinted these things rarely get better.

Also, if I get new tires installed, is there anything I can tell the tire tech to protect my rims more. Like telling him to use a clean rag or rubber between the clamp and rim?
Thanks

Sorry about your issues. I still think it is the tires, which is strange because Michelins are usually well made. I only had this problem once personally with a set of Falkens on my old car. The car pulled pretty badly and lost it's luxury feel. Ironically, I exchanged them for the OEM Michelins to correct the problem. After that, I never used any other tires on that car besides the Michelins.

This happens more often than you think.

I'm going to start with the easiest question to answer first...

on your wheels, the only way to help is to get a tech that is being extra careful and not in a hurry. Two other small tips are to clean the duckhead (the plastic piece that is responsible for mounting and dismounting the tire), and to use a nylon sock on the bar that he uses to pry the tire off... any damage that is going to be done will be during the dismount process...

The Lexus tech is very correct, seldom do things get better when it comes to a tire pull. However, typically they don't get much worse either...

Cross camber is within specification, however, some vehicles are more sensitive to this than others. Yours may be one. I would compare ride height from side to side. Being that the SAI and IA are good, as I previously mentioned, I wouldn't say anything was bent. The difference in camber could be because of a slightly sagging spring on the left front. I really wish I had access to an alignment machine right now so I could look up and confirm there were no camber adjustments for those cars. I do have an idea however. Try calling NAPA. Ask them for camber adjustment kits for the front of your car. They do not show them online, but they have a book you might be able to walk in and look at called NA08 or NA09 (Napa Alignment 2008, etc). This book has every part Napa makes for correcting alignment issues, and most cars have something listed for them. This may be your ticket...

Caster is not going to cause your issue, as there is very very little. Same as camber though, getting it fixed might be enough to fix your issue.

Pilot Sport PS2's are awesome tires, but they will not last nearly as long as the A/S's, and they definitely have no all season ability. They do perform quite nicely in the rain, however.

Best of luck to ya... lemme know what Napa says...

I was told by a tire manufacturer upper level tech support guy that they figure it's somewhere in the realm of 1 in 1,000 to 1 in 10,000 tires built, and that higher performance tires typically had a higher instance of "reported" tire pull... because not all pulling tires are reported (some may end up on the rear of a car and wear too much for warranty before being rotated to the front where they then cause a pull, and those don't get accounted for), it's impossible to come up with a true estimate, but he had been there long enough and had enough data to support those estimates, although they are quite varied...

so, for every set of tires sold, you have somewhere between a 1 in 250 and 1 in 2,500 chance of having a radial tire pull...

Thanks,
Tried to call but they are all closed. I will give one a call tomorrow. They have some kits on line which seems to be just a bolt, nut and washers. However, only Lexus cars found are:
• ES 250
• ES 300
• ES 330
• ES 350
• RX 300
• RX 330
• RX 350
• RX 400h
http://www.napaonline.com/NOLPPSE/(S...Dn=0&Dk=1&Dp=3

I’m leaning toward either getting the PS2 or just living with it.

Before this, I have had two radial pulls. One on this car that showed up on rotation new and on a new set of cheep tires for an old truck. I guess I'm lucky.

As for these tires, I leaning more toward a tire spec or process than a normal radial pull defect. Looking around, there seems to more reports. I suspect this does not bother some people so they do not notice it.


Apparently Lexus is/was using Goodyear for some of their OEM tires for other vehicles. He told me they were having all kinds of pulling and vibration issues/complaints.

Called Napa. I could hear him flipping though pages. They have no kits for 2006 GS. He said try Lexus..

Damn, sorry man...

It wouldn't hurt to try the other set of tires though... might be enough to get rid of your issue....

I wish someone else would chime in and say either yes or no that there is camber adjustment in the front...

maybe PM RTIS250... he seems to have good knowledge on these cars as well...

That would be would great. I started a thread about this and here is the responses I got:
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/gs-...eel-drive.html

thanks

Quick question. Since it is not real bad, would runing more pressure on one side help? If so which side (I was thinking passenger side) and how much before it has effect on tire wear?
thanks
has 33-34 cold now.

lower pressure = higher rolling resistance, higher pressure = lower rolling resistance

if it is pulling to the right, theoretically, you should lower pressure on the left, or raise pressure on the right, or both...

no clue what it will do to tire wear though... I assume it would accelerate it, but have no data as to how much...

I tried 37psi on right 34psi left cold.
At lower speed it seems to have more effect. Highway speed not as much. I’m surprised how sensitive the car is to the pressure difference. Still drifts slightly.

As it was pointed out earlier in this thread, MB got tired of debugging the prior generation of this tire:

TSB P-40_10-43 - Michelin Pilot Sport A/S Tires Not Approved
On January 16, 2004 Mercedes Benz issues a Star Bulletin to all their dealers as follows:
________________________________________
SUBJECT: All Passenger Models
Michelin Pilot Sports A/S Tires

Please be advised that the Michelin Pilot Sport A/S (all season) is not an approved (nor certified) Mercedes-Benz tire for any Mercedes-Benz passenger vehicle. Use of the above mentioned tire can cause vehicle tracking issues which MBUSA will not attempt to correct. MBUSA will not perform warranty wheel alignments on any subject vehicle which has any non-approved wheel/tire packages installed.
_______________________________________


then in June

Michelin ³Mercedes-Benz & Michelin Pilot Sport A/S² Technical Bulletin dated June, 2004. covers the slight modifications Michelin has made to selected sizes of the Pilot Sport A/S tire line to allow them to better complement medium and large sedans.

While the Pilot Sport A/S modifications are unlikely to change MBUSA¹s policy of not covering the costs associated with the diagnosis and correction of drivability problems of vehicles equipped with non-OE tires under warranty, test results have made Michelin very confident they have eliminated the cause of the subtle drifting experienced on a limited number of vehicles.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This TSB specifically singles out Michelin Pilot A/S. Then later widens to all non-OE tires. They state Michelin took action to resolve the issue, however I would not be surprised it has come back around in at least the 3rd Gen GS in low profile 18”s.

If I switch to the PS2s, I sure hope I do not encounter this again.

Had bought a new ford ranger and out of the lot it pulled to the left, a lot. Took it back for 2 years and they gave it an alignment and would give it back. Tires worn out after 10,000 miles. New tires and it was perfect. Bad tires happen.

Mitsuguy,
Looking at DT site and the PS2, they have a smaller resolution of this picture.
I almost laughed but not funny. Notice the rim. This is the type of damage seen from removal I'm talking about.

http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/9...talargehg2.jpg

Mitsuguy,
When you had the drifting issues with the older A/S tires on the MB cars, did going to another tire resolve the customers pulling/drifting issues?

Talked to the DT tech. They called Michelin and set up most of the particulars and he ordered the tires from Houston. It will take a week to get to the northern part of Texas. Lexus is confident the tires are the issue. DT hopes they are right but does not think it is the case. I sure hope the asymmetric Pilot PS2 tire resolves the issue. Not near the tread life though. Been a frustrating experience but so far everyone involved has been very helpful. Must not be that big of a demand for the generic PS2 in this large city.

Talked to the DT guy and described the concerns about the mounting and he asked were the area was located. He then new it was the dismounting. Said they would take the necessary precautions.

Thanks.

Here is a technical response to the A/S Sport Plus issue:
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Tires-235...in-Tires-2.htm

thats pretty much what I said, just with more technical terms... :)

The PS2 had to be shipped up from Houston. They do not sell many of these tires apparently in this size. The PS2 were manufactured at the end of 2007. This makes them over a year old since being manufactured. After talking to DT about the concerns and lip damage to the rims, this time they went in the back and came out with what looked like a new duck head. They bolted it on and then replaced the tires. After they finished, they removed that duck head.

I only have about 80 miles on them and this is what I have observed so far:

1) Drifting about 80% gone. The little that is left probably the road. They defiantly drive straighter and I do not notice tugging on the wheel now.
2) I read the PS2 is one of the quietest tires in its class. If it is, then I would hate to hear the noise from the other tires out there. I was shocked to find the PS2 being louder than the A/S Sport Plus. On concrete highways they are very loud. They are tolerable on asphalt.
3) Road feedback/vibration. Again, there is more feedback from the road than from the A/S Sport Plus. I am surprised as I figured the harder rubber of the A/S Sports would be harsher.

From this first 80 miles, this is what stands out so far.

I would say give the A/S Sport Plus tires a try and if you get the drifting Michelin will take care of you. Maybe someone can explain why the PS2 is nosier than the A/S Sport Plus. It seems I traded off one bad trait for another. Hopefully in a few more miles the noise will get less noticeable.