sojah

iTrader: (1)

so my beater car (scion xa) needs some new front tires before the wintry season starts right...

i looked up a tire that was great in rain and wintry elements but also is an all season that gets great mileage. i ordered two of them. i brought them to my local pep boys. i told the dude at pep boys i wanted the tires mounted on the front of the car, balanced, and a front alignment done. this is where the story get good trust me

the pep boys dude says that he can mount the tires on the front of the car but that he has to then rotate them to the back of the car before i drive out of the lot. huh

i tell him that i want the new tires on the front of the car since the car is a small lightweight FWD car that is like 65% F 35% R weight distribution.

he tells me that a new MD rule came about from an NHTSA study finding that cars that only have their front tires replaced are more likely to get into an accident. I told him that this may be true for some larger RWD cars but more than likely not true for my little all front xA hatchback. the pep boys dude then tries to convince me of this study's findings for the next 5 mins and i said look if you can't put these new tires on the front of the car then i am going somewhere else... . at which point he says he can't and i leave...



am i just crazy or does this sound pretty damn ridiculous...

what if i was replacing tires from my LS430? i couldn't very well put my front tire size of 225x30x20 on my rear 20x10" wheel??? well i guess its possible but not very likely, and what if my rear wheel was like a 21" or a 20x12

GLIDESUL

That's crazy first I ever heard of that one but I don't go to pep boys much for anything. They probably just wanted to make some extra money of you. I'm gonna look into this one. Love your ride sojah.

Kansas

The "pep boys dude" might have been following company policy. There is a caution is most car owners manuals stating that the best tires should be mounted on the rear - regardless of whether the car is front or rear wheel drive. Large chains are particularly sticky about having their people follow rules that limit their liability.

I had a similar problem when I went to buy H-rated (130mph) Michelin MXV4 tires for my 2000 LS400 which is speed limited to 149 mph. The store would not install the tires and sold them to me on a cash and carry basis. It wouldn't have been a problem if I wanted the tires for a 130 mph limited LS430. The same store (Costco) had no problem selling me T-rated winter tires for the same car but maybe that was because there is the following caution in the car's owners manual: "Never drive over 120 km/h (75 mph) with any type of snow tires."

sojah

iTrader: (1)

hmm, good point kansas,,, funny cuz the LS430 has a governor at 125 (i believe) but the ls400 let you take it all the way to 149
when i asked him if it was only pep boys he kept saying that it was a state thing and that all of MD was supposed to be following these rules. but yeah i can almost see a large chain doing something ridiculous like this, but not an entire state

thanks glidesul!!

caddyowner

There are a number of new tire regulations, which I think all came about with the introduction of mandatory TPMS. For example, some places will put non-TPMS winter wheels on your TPMS car and others won't. My daughter took her Oldsmobile to a tire store to get a leaky tire patched. They found 3 nails and one was in the sidewall which they couldn't repair. They wouldn't repair the tire and insisted she get another. She was short on $$, so they gave her a used tire and told her the other three also needed replacing. The next morning, the new, used tire was flat. Four new tires would be worth more than the car is worth, so she probably needs to prioritize her budget and buy something more reliable.

Kansas

The LS430 sold in North America was electronically limited to 130 mph and came with H-rated (130 mph) tires standard . All model years of the North American LS400 were electronically limited to 149 mph and came with V-rated tires. All model years of the LS400 and LS430 sold in the U.K and Europe were electronically limited to 250 km/h (155 mph). The governor limit for the Japanese domestic market was lower - 112 or 118 mph ... I forget which.

RA40

iTrader: (6)

Does sound crazy. Would be curious what this NHTSA document # is?

sojah

iTrader: (1)

Since I'm so curious I think I will call the store back and ask them for their reference...

Wheel_Man

iTrader: (1)

Very weird. Could you possibly have them mounted elsewhere?

DNC

Why are you wasting so much time with this guy? Seconds into his explanation I would have been walking out without wasting my breath with so much as a goodbye.
If I am understanding you correctly you bought the tires one place and having them mounted some other place. If that is the case are you really saving that much money?

mitsuguy

iTrader: (2)

This is a common recommendation and should be more widely known by now, but for some reason, is not.

There are all sorts of arguments as to why, and I'll go through them here for everyone.

Point #1) Understeer vs. Oversteer - plain and simple, a car that understeers is easier to drive at the limits for the average driver. Understeer, in a simple example, is when you go into a corner too hot, turn the wheel and the car keeps going straight, or pushes. Oversteer, is when the rear loses traction before the front. Oversteer is much harder to control than understeer, and as such, most cars are built to understeer from the factory. Do you really think even an AWD Porsche has tires on the rear 3" wider than the fronts because of acceleration traction - nope, thats because they don't want it to oversteer excessively. To prevent oversteer, we mount the best tires on the rear of a vehicle. In the dry, this isn't nearly as important, but in the wet or snow conditions, it is very important.

Point #2 - weight transfer. Straight line stopping from speed, there should be no argument that most of the weight transfers to the front tires of a vehicle, enhancing the amount of traction the front tires have. This also reduces the amount of traction the rear tires have, and if the rears are not in good shape, the rear end will get loose, and when braking matters most (not being able to stop on ice, panic stop due to accident avoidance, etc), that can be a very scary situation. Combine cornering as mentioned in Point #1 with weight transfer, so, braking and cornering, it can be extremely bad.

Point #3 - aside from acceleration, fwd vehicles and rwd vehicles actually have similar braking and cornering (when coasting) attributes, so, why would we put new tires on the rear of a RWD vehicle and new tires on the front of a FWD vehicle??? simple, we don't, we put them on the back, regardless....

Point #4 - "well, what about that old tire that might blow out?" Simple, again, you are better off with a blow out on the front of a vehicle than the rear, especially if you are in the middle of a turn. It is simply easier to handle, as a car with only 1 good tire on the front just oversteers and is relatively easy to control - a tire that blows out on the rear in the middle of a turn ends up spinning in the turn...

Don't believe me, lets find some links out there that back this up:

TireRack: http://blog.tirerack.com/blog/select...pairs-of-tires

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tirete...jsp?techid=52&

Video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSz7cm6MwH0

Michelin:
http://michelinman.com/michelincom/f...2C1852527010F0

Random small shop: http://www.townfair.com/techpage_12.shtml

There is tons of tire safety information on this site as well, including how to repair tires safely: http://www.tiresafety.com/

Discount Tire: http://www.discounttire.com/dtcs/infoTiresRear.dos

Consumer Reports: http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/c...w/0411tir1.htm

And if you want to know why the guy at Pep Boys was so adamant to install them on the rear, well, here ya go:
http://www.miamiinjurylawyersblog.co...-has-lead.html

At my shop, I'll install them wherever you want, but if they are going on the front, you are signing a waiver stating that you were explained the reasons why they should go on the rear and you still insist they go on the front.

Now, I notice you mentioned something about different tire sizes front and rear, well, that should be obvious. The rule does not apply in this scenario, and although it is recommended to replace all 4 at the same time, it is not the requirement, as the rear tires should already have more grip due to a wider footprint.

The policies on all of these should be emphasized at any tire replacement shop.

mitsuguy

iTrader: (2)

I definitely agree with your last statement, but used tires are always a risky purchase. It is impossible to know the history of the tire, and even the set I just took off my IS300, as good as they are, they could still potentially have damage that is unknown to even myself... A great example - when I took the tires off my Vehicross, one had a puncture in the shoulder, thus the reason I replaced the set. It was a small pinhole leak, almost undetectable. Aside from that, the tire looked good, it obviously was not (I put on a set of Bridgestone REVO's on it, and wouldn't have spent that kinda money if it didn't need tires).

Tires are an often overlooked, very important part of car maintenance... Many people die each year due to accidents that may have been avoided with good tires, or never have began with good tires...

sojah

iTrader: (1)

so your saying that i should put the brand new tires on the rear and leave the older ones that are due to be replaced by next spring in the front knowing that we are going into winter???

mitsuguy

iTrader: (2)

I am saying you should do what you want, but, it has been proven that cars and trucks are safer with better tires and generally more weight on the rear end when it comes to handling... For those FWD cars that are light in the rear, you need to offset the lack of weight with added traction...

They wouldn't emphasize this so much if it wasn't important to safety. I'm sure some will say, blah blah blah "if the rear slides, I'll just counter steer and correct it" blah blah blah... Sure, some people will be able to do that just fine, but on many roads, that just isn't possible - it works if you are cutting the corner like you would in racing, but not if you have to stay in the outside lane of a turn... Also, not sure if you've ever done any performance driving in the wet, but, in my experiences, if the car starts to slide, all you have to do is slow down (which the car does naturally), and slacken the steering just a little...

Either way, the key factor driving in the winter is the driver behind the wheel. I hate to mention it because it should be common knowledge, but, in the winter, do everything as if your car is the worst handling, braking, accelerating car in the world. Think you can beat the cross traffic - probably if it was just dry or wet out, but maybe not if its icy/snowy. Think you can beat the stop light - same thing. On ice and snow, it can take well more than 3x your normal stopping distances (hard to say actually, because if its bad out, you usually get stopped by hitting something else).

Be safe!

sojah

iTrader: (1)

yeah i feel you ^ ^ ^ and am a lot more confident in my own winter driving skills, however this is the car that my wife will often drive in inclement weather as well and now you guys got me all paranoid so i will prolly be putting these tires on the rear then and i suppose i may buy two more for the front in the near future.

i suppose if the fronts can't get enough traction to make it through a little bit of wintry weather than the vehicle/driver prolly shouldn't be out in the first place.

i just had flash backs of living in CO and trying to drive my GS400... i intentionally had my better tires put on the rear and on a lot of occasions actually needed it to get traction to make it up a hill, so i figured the reverse would be true on this super front weighted light FWD hatchback.