magneti

clearly. you dont blame competitors for putting you out of business. you blame higher ups for not adjusting which is what they get paid to do.

if that involves lowering prices and finding more innovative designers so be it.

the sentimental side people have for bbs shouldnt come into play. its strictly business. and they're failing due inability to adapt.

kit cat

iTrader: (6)

yet, ClubLexus is supporting the sales of knockoffs...why? It's even got a centercap that says BBS



https://www.clublexus.com/forums/clu...t-pricing.html

And how much sales do aftermarket make up for BBS? Aftermarket probably has higher margin but I would think that they may have filed for bankruptcy because of their decrease in OEM sales due to the overall economic conditions (and decrease in auto sales)? As much as I hate knock offs, I guess BBS has reached that status everyone wants to achieve...

I'm actually not one of those '**** all fake ****' type person. Assuming royalties are paid, art work are replicated in posters so that a non-high net worth individual like myself can appreciate art as well. I like architecture, specifically Frank Lloyd Wright. So I have a few things like a business card holder, coffee mug, etc with replicated/inspired by Frank Lloyd Wright design on them (but I think proper dues go to his foundation since I buy them when I go see his work or at the moma store....).

In the same way, I really think it's great that people appreciate the engineering that goes into die-forged wheels and the timeless design so I wouldn't mind having a replica as a coffee table and tell my friends it's a knockoff (assuming proper royalties are paid to BBS and/or Washimeyer...however you spell that). But a coffee table doesn't require the tolerance a road wheels face...being spun at high speed, hitting pot holes, constant random application of heat and snow...I'm sure that requires extensive R&D.

If people are selling cheaply made imitation so they can make a profit by mooching off the creators reputation they built putting who knows how many long hours and dedication, I seriously question that.

just my 2 cents.

PS: admin/mods, if you want to delete that top part about the vendor, I'll understand. but please my second part...

jmkiang

iTrader: (1)

^ Haha win! So true though!

jmkiang

iTrader: (1)

Haha says the guy with Rotas. They aren't much more expensive than Work, Volk, Weds etc.

rominl

iTrader: (4)

i don't see anything wrong with what you said, you simply stated your points constructively.

oh well, read my avatar and sig

Stormforge

that's subjective i suppose, but at least there is more choice with Work wheels than with BBS. if 1 in 10 wheel design becomes a hit, at least you will make money on that design (just like BBS with their LM). i can name a couple of Work wheels that are popular among modders: Work Schert SC1, Work Varianza T1S, Work LS 105, Work Equip, just to name a few.

LexFather

Without BBS financials we cannot determine the exact cause for this 2nd bankruptcy but surely knock-offs don't help.

A few of us brought up the fact CL is now allowing vendors that sell clear knock-offs here but it is a business and we are volunteers and well we don't own the business. Looking around there are CL members that proudly buy knock-offs knowing they are knock-offs so the business case is there from all sides.

I bought knock-offs before but had no idea they were and never bought knock-offs again. The quality in my experience was far substandard and I hated knowing I had "fakes". I ended up replacing 2 wheels for bends and could have easily bought more expensive wheels in the long run.

I am a happy BBS wheel owner and they are by far the best wheel I have owned. I also have some Ronal made wheels waiting for installation so if they buy BBS I would be happy. Ronal is a very reputable brand.

BBS is proven, period and they are costly. Some people ask why the designs are staid. Well BBS wheels are designed with function in mind, then form. Too many wheels have style in mind, then function/strength afterward. BBS is proven on the track for DECADES and that means a lot to me. I will never forget my conversation with the BBS rep at Lexfest years ago, he SOLD me on the product. The N.A plant is in north Atlanta by Road Atlanta.

Now that I am older safety is an issue and I want to know I and my wife are riding in quality wheels and quality tires. In this sue happy world, I don't want to be liable using crappy wheels, tires.

I don't buy a knock-off car in a Lexus, why would I skimp out on wheels? Its an oxymoron to me. Now I am not knocking anyone's choice, its your money, your life, your ethics.

Not for me.

magneti

nothing to do with ethics. its like a choice in any other product. if you choose to get generic milk over brand name its your choice. maybe the brand name is more nutritious, maybe it isnt.

some peoples needs in a wheel are basically for looks as long as it holds up in everyday driving.

some may prefer a better quality bbs wheel.

either way, its a consumers choice and if the lesser brand starts failing they go out of business. if its comparable for the consumers needs, it prospers because it costs less.


the market decides what is best and the rest is weeded out. how it works in every free market.

Stormforge

that's not entirely true. ethics plays a large part of what a person believes, it guides his moral character (so to speak). stealing is wrong but lots of people steal. does that make it right?

ok, not exactly a good comparison, we are talking about wheels here. but if a person's ethics tell him that buying knock offs is wrong (ie: his belief in what is right and what is wrong), then that is a decision guided by ethical choice.

yes i understand what you are saying about market dictates what is best and the rest is weeded out. i understand how free market works and i agree with you up to a point.

true, there is a "herd" mentality where people don't care if they buy knock-offs or not. but some do care. and for those of us who choose to buy real brand name, it is dictated by quality, ethics, and branding.

all i'm saying is you can't just whitewash and say ethics don't have any part in one's decision about purchasing a product; because for some people, ethics plays a large part in who they are as a person.

magneti

sure but ethics are so relative especially when trying to apply to a corporation which is ironic in itself. morals and corporations dont go hand in hand but i digress.

if you wanted to apply ethics to the very standard of every product as well as wheels, you probably wouldnt consume any food due to animal cruelty during processing.

or buy anything at walmart due to child labor laws.

or the leather seats on the very car that you apply ethics for its wheels. what about the outsourced labor that costs millions of americans jobs for that same car. some apply ethics to that as well.

i mean its such a personal decision its almost impossible to judge your own much less someone elses. especially when it can be applied to whatever one chooses.

choosing one product over another is not stealing. its not unethical. its choosing price over quality or the best combination of the two. or if money is no object then quality only.

99% of the market is not dictated by the latter however. most choose based on price/quality/use. not very surprising in forums like these when the average cost of the car in question is about 5k. its safe to assume many dont see getting wheels worth more than their car which is the real issue here.

its impractical and unrealistic in most cases.

if the knockoffs start failing and the only other choice beyond stock is bbs, people will be riding on stock. and thats the true reason companies that fall in between exist.

people driving $5k cars need a non-stock wheel for less than the price of their car. bbs should have adapted to that market or go under which they have.

ClearP

Although you make some good points, but blaming BBS for not making cheap wheels to "adapt" to the market does not make any sense.

BBS can very well copy other companies product, not spend any money on product design and product development and sell cheap wheels branding their name, but what good is that? When will people realize that if you support fakes, very soon the company that creates these designs will no longer be in existence? Which mean no new products? No new products means no new copies, which equals less choices for you?

It's funny to see people who demands great designs at a cheap price... obviously simple economics and business logic does not apply to these people. To put your logic on a greater scale, this is the reason why China is getting richer and richer while inventors in the US are closing down factories. To apply your logic, maybe we should start adapting too.

My conclusion to this is these people will find excuses as to why they went with fakes, why it's ok and why it's no big deal. Sometimes they dont mind throwing some punches at the ones who designed these very product that they love, and the people that bought authentic. Until karma turns the table, they feel as if these companies are the ones to blame.

kit cat

iTrader: (6)

Not sure about generic milk, but generic medication has fairly strict guidelines that requires them to be almost identical (bio-equivalence...i think was the term) from the brand name one. so even if you do buy generic medicine, at least one will have qualities similar, if not exact, to the original.
With wheels...? I don't think such standard applies. JWL is a joke. The standard itself might be pretty strict (well...strict when it was initially released in the 80s or 70s from what I heard) but it's self declared so you just have to say (without any external audit) that they are JDM...im sorry, JWL. VIAs a bit better since external audit is required....but apparently some knockoffs even imitate the VIA logo and now VIA issues a sticker.

and yes, the market does decide in a free-market. but you do realize a pure free market has never existed right? (from little of what I remember from school....) I think what you meant was Laissez-faire which kinda is like the real world. back to your point about generic milk; I bet that has some FDA regulation and government intervention...which means we're not in a free market.

I personally appreciate the quality of BBS. I used to work at a car shop in Tokyo during my undergrad. I mounted tires when I first started and my boss was a BBS fanatic. Reason being? Die-forged BBS usually requires very minimal balancing. Which means their shape hold even when they are driven for miles and miles. Whereas some cheap wheels would take me a few tries trying to balance them, even if they're brand new.

as you said, caveat emptor. but if the support for reverse engineered cheaply built stuff doesn't go away, there will be less incentive to make anything... which would suck.

kit cat

iTrader: (6)

and I'm sure BBS didn't market their die-forged wheels to people who can only afford 5k cars. it's the buyers who are wanting them and putting them on their 5k cars regardless of what BBS has planned.

BBS should have adapted? have you heard of ASA?
http://www.tirerack.com/wheels/asa/asa_info.jsp

kit cat

iTrader: (6)

http://datruthcometh.blogspot.com/20...irlfriend.html

kit cat

iTrader: (6)

- Do it once and do it right. Do your homework to get it right.
- If you can't afford it, drive the car stock.
- promoting knock-offs is shameful on a car enthusiast site, not to mention companies who make/sell knock-offs.
- it's authentic if it roots from the original company
^